Be careful out there guys (mixing metals)

[pHaestus]

Ok I am not going to try and pass the buck; I have been running straight distilled water in my PC-50 for about 6 months. I planned to redo the loop so I didnt bother with water wetter initially. Anyway I went to change the system around today, and noticed this:



There was also some white residue and discoloration on the CPU itself. Not good, I thought.

So I pulled the block completely apart and checked the barbs:



I didnt use teflon tape on the barbs; that is not supposed to be there! And what is up with the discoloration and oxidation of one of the barbs? Not good at all.... So inside there was (as expected) a mess:



It was a bit slimy; not sure if it is bacterial growth as well or what. I also haven't decided yet whether the block is corroded through at the alum/copper interface (causing the buildup on the base outside the block) or if a bit of water just leaked down there. I will see if I can get the block's insides cleaned and then pressure test it. Nothing was wrong with any of the other parts of the loop as far as I could tell.

Just thought you'd like to see the pictures and laugh at me. I put some water wetter into my new loop btw

[Mark Larson]

*points and laughs*

[pHaestus]

I said you could laugh at me, but I DIDN'T say I wouldn't kick you in the balls for doing so.

*thwack*

[Jonas]

yet another reason not to trust a block with mixed metals...all you swiftech suckers note this. anodizing is all well and good till you start using metal barbs and running water through it.

the white is certainly aluminum oxide, and given that the base looks to be a purely mechanical join (no sealants adehesives solder etc) its likely the water found a way through.

i worked on antenna systems in the USAF and in my expirience if you leave anything long enough water will find a way through. we found water in slice cases that were preassure sealed, and coated with a conformal coating 2" thick...

[Khledar]

Sure that's not just some more of our great northern snow?

[TerraMex]

>I also haven't decided yet whether the block is corroded through
>at the alum/copper interface (causing the buildup on the base
>outside the block)

Its corroded (IMO). Having a aluminum casing, and probably using the innovatek deposit... made of aluminum (if it's the standard one), and not running an anti-corrosion agent was a bit of a gamble. All it needed was the anodized casing to suffer damage to actively start doing nasty things to your system. Using those barbs might have chipped the anodized cover... maybe poly barbs would be a better option.

Here's another one:


the not so better half.


gunk galore.


caved in, real nasty.

[JSimmons]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Danger Den for not mixing copper and aluminum in their waterblocks.

[pHaestus]

Wow that's pretty bad. I don't THINK my block is anywhere near that; I can see copper still and not white/greenish oxidized crap if I look down into the barb. I put some diluted CLR in it this am and will see if that clears the crap out of the block. I would assume that CLR has lots of organic ligands to chelate cations (Ca and Fe for lime and rust) and is acidic t dissolve them in the first place. Seems like it should work on the block too. Too bad I can't really open it up and see what's insidde. You think if I got the block cold enough that it would separate? Minus 80C is about the best I can do in my lab at the moment, but I could probably borrow some liquid N2 from someone at work.

[TerraMex]

Not sure about freezing it . It will contract the metal, mas that poses a bigger threat . It can break the aluminum casing, or the copper block if enough corroded, or both... or nothing because the gunk keeps things tight .

A few more pics... good thing my base if a 50x50x5 mm copper plate, "aha! corrode that will you.".

A few more pics... :



It corroded and broke the aluminum casing. A really nice crack there.



Full view of the mess.



This is the vertical cut of the first picture of my first post, you can see more of the extensive damage.

It also gives me the ideia that it's cold fitted in the aluminum casing (by a machine naturally).

[pHaestus]

if I could get the damn thing apart without destroying it I would try to make a new top out of lexan or copper. It may be too late for this block though

[Jonas]

wanna buy my dd maze 3? its just sitting here now since i could not fit my cooler into my new case...gonna have to start over.

i'll say this ph if you can see corrosion on the bottom then that block is not long for this world. If its managed to get to the outside then you have extensive corrosion in those little ridges you can see in tex's sawed open one. it had to fill those slots with stagnant water, and corrode the mechanical seal to the point that water could fill the next chamber...and so on.

[TerraMex]

True. The existance of corrosion on the outside of the block indicates that it has eaten the lateral seal . If you remove the gunk, i bet it will leak. If it hasnt already . Try searching your mobo for "soft spots". Having that type of corrosion on the outside might indicate that it has leaked already (or not), and you've been lucky.

However, i think it can be saved, even if your initial plan goes "down the drain" . But that goes through destroying the aluminium casing . But then you should be able to remove the copper center and maybe do some salvage work on it (cleaning job). A plexy/lexan/(insert plastic here) top could do the trick. It's not something new on these types of blocks , the cuplex works in a similar way.

[pHaestus]

I have a maze3 Jonas

[Sproket]

Do you think I will have a problem with my WhiteWater block snd brass barbs??
I was thinking of putting some purple ice in there.
Or
I could change all the barbs in system to POly!!
But then I could not tighten down on them as much.
Thanks
Sproket

[TerraMex]

I dont think you will, i'm willing to bet that the aluminum was the key factor in the corroded waterblock. Anyway, a corrosion inhibitor is always a good ideia .

[Joe]

Originally posted by pHaestus
I have a maze3 Jonas

you also have a VERY rare Aluminum Spiral block and a Copper Spiral block

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Sproket
Do you think I will have a problem with my WhiteWater block snd brass barbs??
I was thinking of putting some purple ice in there.
Or
I could change all the barbs in system to POly!!
But then I could not tighten down on them as much.

I have been running block #000 for the last 7 months with the brass barbs and nothing but tap water occasionally topping up an open to the air reservoir (I use a standard Eheim 1250 pump sponge filter) ferried back and forth in an old 2 litre Coke bottle.

I opened up the block recently and inspected it. Short of some minor discoloration on the outside of the barbs where the hosing clamps on, the block looked perfect. I even took the barbs out to inspect the seals and it looked just fine.

In short, and given that testing, I feel that you'd have nothing to worry about even with tap water, unless your tap water contains something unusually toxic.

I always like to point out that house water commonly comes into the house through copper pipes and brass fittings, so it amuses me slightly when people panic suddenly about copper/brass as if it could be dangerous when many houses have 50+ year old plumbing using that exact same mix.

[Balinju]

Originally posted by Sproket
Do you think I will have a problem with my WhiteWater block snd brass barbs??
I was thinking of putting some purple ice in there.
Or
I could change all the barbs in system to POly!!
But then I could not tighten down on them as much.
Thanks
Sproket

if i'm not wrong, brass is an alloy of copper, it has a very high percantage of copper in itself so you do not have to worry about battrey affect between brass and copper

[Blackeagle]

I have one question, just how thick would the Lexan need to be to make repairs on that type of Innovatek block? Looks like it would need to be pretty thick.

I'd say pHaestus was lucky he decided to rework his system when he did. A few more weeks and his MB and CPU would have gotten toasted, maybe even his graphics card. Much better to replace a block that all that as well. And with a bit more luck he may be able to rebuild it with a copper or polycarb top.

Glad to see you caught the problem in time pHaestus.

[Sproket]

Yea i thought brass contained some copper in it. just making sure I have nothing to worry about. Just did not waqnt to mess up my new block.
Thanks Stew!

[redleader]

I always like to point out that house water commonly comes into the house through copper pipes and brass fittings, so it amuses me slightly when people panic suddenly about copper/brass as if it could be dangerous when many houses have 50+ year old plumbing using that exact same mix.

1) Copper pipes are not pure copper as I recall. Alloys have much better corrosive resistance then pure metals.

2) Ever look at the fittings in an old house? They're typically corroded as heck.

Anyway brass is an allow of copper (with zinc added) so theres no meaningful reaction between it and copper. Furthermore Zinc will protect copper from natural oxidation due to its low redux potiential ( -.76 vs. 0 for H+/H2 and +1.x for O2/H20; copper is -.34 IIRC).

[jaydee]

Yup, one more thread to the list! To bad the standard is becoming anodized AL for the tops......

[koslov]

Cathar, I don't think you should be recommending tap water. I don't know what the tap water is like in Australia, but in many places here the water is chock full of calcium and magnesium, as well as small amounts of yummy toxic stuff. Washing cars is a PITA, because the water is so hard it leaves lots of thick water spots as soon as it dries. These mineral deposits can, over time, form nasty green lime scales, much like this:





This is a block opened up after 6 months of running tap water, with no corrosion inhibitors. This PC was powered down every night, so the time the water was left stagnant might have something to do with it. As you can see, the channels are getting constricted by the deposits. Very little crud is from actual galvanic corrosion; only the thin black layer on the Al and Cu is caused by that.

CLR is not recommended for use on Cu. Read the label. It will get rid of lime scales, but probably corrode the Cu and take the anodizing right off the Al. And if your block top is already corroded, only re-anodizing the top will repair it.

I don't know why people still insist on making Al tops for copper blocks... Lexan is not only stronger but you can visibly inspect blocks for crud without removing the top. Even if an Al top is Type III anodized, a small scratch could prove disastrous. I would bet these scratches are not hard to get, especially when screwing down metal barbs. Anodizing alters the thread pattern and diameter slightly, and when that metal barb is screwed into a too-small thread, something has to give.

Anyway, Cathar, I know the new WW blocks are going to be mixed-metals, so I would like to hear your rebuttal.

pH: An acrylic block might work nicely for your purposes. You can get a 3x3x3 block for around $30. Here is just one place that sells them: http://www.nicetoys.com/jaextralargeacrylicblocks.html . Just use poly barbs and be careful not to crack it when machining it. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find Lexan in that size.

[Cathar]

koslov, show us the same on a pure copper block with brass barbs and it would have been informative.

The question was about pure copper/brass, not pure copper mixed with bare aluminium with no corrosion inhibitors, then left to sit stagnant.

A lot of the green evident there looks to me kinda like verdigris being corroded copper, which happens with copper/water oxidation in air. Looks kinda like the system was bled improperly and when turned off air pockets were forming.

I don't know. All I did was report what I saw.

Let me ask though. In San Diego, how many houses have copper/brass fittings as plumbing? Then how many clog up in the matter of 6 months with the water being left stagnant in the pipes waiting for you to turn the tap on again?

However, I have always stated that when the anodised top versions of the WW get on the market that I recommend that corrosion inhibitors are used.

[Edit: fixed "properly" to be "improperly"]

[koslov]

The pics were meant to illustrate the effects of using tap water, not to answer the question about brass barbs. The green is definitely lime scales, not verdigris.

The difference between water lines and water blocks is that one is being used for heat transfer and the other isn't. Even if a small layer of lime forms in a block, what do you think that's going to do to heat transfer?

Here's a copper household pipe that has significant lime buildup.