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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-09-2004, 09:32 PM   #51
AngryAlpaca
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Quote:
Got two barbs at the back, a molex connector. Using a turbine style impeller mechanism as this best suits the low-flat model, with a mag-drive using modified hard-disk drive motor technology spinning a magnetic armature, with the impeller sealed and effectively surrounding the motor magnet armature (ie. like the Davies-Craig EBP does it, which is like the MCP600 but reversed). Or alternately, a drive mechanism similar to the Laing D4, except with a turbine impeller instead of a centrifugal impeller attached.
Why not an external gear PD pump? I've done some research and it seems that this the type best suited to watercooling (much simpler than the others) and to fitting in a drive bay. I don't know much about motors, though, but I think it could work.

Bill, on the issue of stuff that is tolerable in the "real world" and high end cooling, is Swiftech working on any thing with heatpipes?
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Unread 07-10-2004, 01:47 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
quite agree with Joe
what the DIY market accepts - and even lauds - is intolerable in the 'real world'
I fully agree. Most business desktops are expected to live 3-5 years or more with zero maintenance. Not even a cleaning of filters and heatsinks. As for servers, they get mucked around with more often because of upgrades, but they are usually off in a separate space where hearing protection is recommended. Outside the fortune 500-type setups servers become more like desktops - expected to just work with no maintenance. Heck, you aren't going to find many companies that will EVER open a destop case, and quite a few that have desktops with case locks or security screws to hinder users from openning the case.

One of the things that is easy to forget as a computing enthusiast is that most people, even in technical professions, haven't a clue how the stuff works. You've got hardware, software, and wetware in order of reliability, and any tweaks to the hardware requiring software monitoring for failsafes dramatically increase the chances for failures, and once you bring the wetware into it, failure is assured.

Probably the toughest part of w/c is the potential for catastrophic or cascading failures. That alone would require it to be much more reliable than other hardware since otherwise it would be inducing failures of the other hardware. Hell, know why business desktops don't have blow holes? Because if you can spill on a $15 keyboard by golly you can spill into the blowhole of a $1500 system.

Here's a twist on the thought of the thread. Imagine for the moment the article is symptomatic of the arrogant meglomania of the enthusiast community. Perhaps the problem isn't that there are crap products, but that innovation is being squelched by the enthusiast community's self-important rants about how many crap products there are. What is hurting w/c is enthusiasts that blast the "barely adequate" solutions and advocate high flow large tube systems with bigger pumps. It should be obvious with a little thought that reliabilty would be higher and maintenance lower on a well designed lower flow smaller system. The very products the enthusiast community loves to bash are the ones that are required to move w/c forward, we need to help them mature not ridicule them - build better minivans and economy cars instead of denigrating them because they aren't Formula-1 or NASCAR.
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Unread 07-10-2004, 04:23 AM   #53
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As for smaller pumps that fit in bays:



Timmer Coolpump Typ 700 12V DC powered by OASE
Preiswerte und kompakte 12V-Pumpe mit bewährter OASE-Technik. Die Pumpe läuft ruhig und zuverlässig und kann einfach an einem freien Anschluss des PC-Netzteils angeschlossen werden.

Technische Daten:
12V DC, ca. 5W, 50cm Kabel
Förderleistung max. 8 Liter/min
Anschlüsse: G1/4 Innengewinde

or this one:
compacttube für Eheim compact 600

With this one you can even see the water flow



Fördermenge: 150-600 l/h (per Schieberegler einstellbar)
Förderhöhe: 1,3 m
Leistung: 11 W, 230 V
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Unread 07-10-2004, 05:04 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPorc
Here's a twist on the thought of the thread. Imagine for the moment the article is symptomatic of the arrogant meglomania of the enthusiast community. Perhaps the problem isn't that there are crap products, but that innovation is being squelched by the enthusiast community's self-important rants about how many crap products there are. What is hurting w/c is enthusiasts that blast the "barely adequate" solutions and advocate high flow large tube systems with bigger pumps. It should be obvious with a little thought that reliabilty would be higher and maintenance lower on a well designed lower flow smaller system. The very products the enthusiast community loves to bash are the ones that are required to move w/c forward, we need to help them mature not ridicule them - build better minivans and economy cars instead of denigrating them because they aren't Formula-1 or NASCAR.
Not a twist at all, just an aspect left mostly unconsidered. Well said!
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Unread 07-10-2004, 06:39 AM   #55
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LPorc : "It should be obvious with a little thought that reliabilty would be higher and maintenance lower on a well designed lower flow smaller system."

Well, I think that right now you don't have any reliability either in a low or in a high flow system.
Of course you can have the same security in a big car as in a smaller car. It's just cost driven.

So far, no one considered important to design a self-contained WC system, or having parts with MTBF.
The industry is in a standstill as it is at a turnpoint.
If Swiftech is to introduce such a specification (new pump) we will see more professional attitudes towards the evolution of this market.
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Unread 07-10-2004, 08:54 AM   #56
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nice to see posts such as LPorc's, but agree with Jag that size per se does not preclude reliability

nice pumps Jag, is their mfgr 'into' reliability testing ? (and ISO 9002, that kinda stuff)

AA
go listen to a gear pump
no product dev comments
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Unread 07-10-2004, 09:05 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
nice to see posts such as LPorc's, but agree with Jag that size per se does not preclude reliability

nice pumps Jag, is their mfgr 'into' reliability testing ? (and ISO 9002, that kinda stuff)

AA
go listen to a gear pump
no product dev comments
I'm not sure, Bill. I still remember how happy I was to get rid of the water cooled 360-91 because of all the maintenance hassles. Before we get to water cooling machines (again), do you think it will go back to the closed air conditioned cases/rooms that have racks and racks of servers with redundant enviromental controls? Or do you think that it will be racks with airequip type disconnects for water and remote cooling systems?
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Unread 07-10-2004, 09:21 AM   #58
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why are we ignoring the elephant in the refrigerator ?

look at the new Mac, every difference between that system and a DIY system reflects the application of fairly basic engineering - possibly considering reliability, cost, and performance in that order.

and that Hitachi unit
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Unread 07-10-2004, 09:48 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag
Well, I think that right now you don't have any reliability either in a low or in a high flow system.

So far, no one considered important to design a self-contained WC system, or having parts with MTBF.

The industry is in a standstill as it is at a turnpoint.
If Swiftech is to introduce such a specification (new pump) we will see more professional attitudes towards the evolution of this market.
Reliability in a WC system is based on it's weakest link, an that's the pump. There are indeed very reliable pumps on the market that have been tested for years in environments much more hostile than standard coolant mixtures. Marine aquariums come to mind. Why aren't there more pumps that cater to WC? Answer below.

Wrong, self-contained units do exist. The Aquagate being one of the most recent, with more hopefully on the way Strange that whenever a newbie asks about these units, there's at least one "pro" water-cooler who's happy to say that such products suck and that the noob should instead fab a system, from as many non-computer differentiated parts as possible. And this advice is usually offered without asking the newbie anything about his intentions for the unit, or anything else for that matter. Innovation doesn't work if few people buy things during a product cycle. And no, near as I can tell the industry isn't at a standstill OR a turning-point. What they are doing is casting about, trying to find a solution that will enchant the masses and make money.

If you want niceties like MTBF ratings on WC products you’re going to have to wait until enough people are buying things, finding their weaknesses and complaining like crazy about them.
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Unread 07-10-2004, 11:15 AM   #60
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AA
go listen to a gear pump
no product dev comments
All right. I read that it was loud in comparison to others but I wasn't sure if it was that big of an issue.

Anyway, I strongly believe that the reason that watercooling is being held back (and will be in the future) is heatpipes. Nothing more complicated than that. Heatpipe heatsink designs can be improved by a lot. Every heatpipe heatsink that I've seen has two TIM joints on each heatpipe, as well as the one from the processor to the heatsink. Why must that be there? Why has no one hollowed out a small hole in the bottom of a copper plate (evaporator stage) and made a heatpipe from that, or, hell, cast an aluminum base around heat pipes? That would probably drop the thermal resistance by 0.05C/W or something around there. Also, why not use a radiator rather than a heatsink? Get a 160*80mm radiator, attach pipes from the base and have the actual fluid flowing through it with a vacuum of the proper level inside of it? That should eliminate the pump and those TIM joints as well as expanding the surface area vastly...

I think the reason we complain about poor units is because they don't offer anything. The Aquagate, when quiet has a thermal resistance of 0.31C/W... BARE minimum with a 3.06 or higher by Intel's standards. When turned fully up, it's 0.23C/W and about as loud as a Tornado... Where's the improvement? Why should we buy this? It costs $200 whereas an ALX 800 costs $15 and a Tornado costs $10. Hmm... Equal performance and less hassle for 1/8 the price?
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Unread 07-10-2004, 11:36 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag
LPorc : "It should be obvious with a little thought that reliabilty would be higher and maintenance lower on a well designed lower flow smaller system."

Well, I think that right now you don't have any reliability either in a low or in a high flow system.
Of course you can have the same security in a big car as in a smaller car. It's just cost driven..
Yes, of course. I could have been more clear on that, but I was busy foaming at the mouth and ranting

But then again, wouldn't the same excellence of engineering concepts taken and applied to the smaller, lower pressure product also improve it? I.E. construction values provide different results for different loads and scales. I suppose if you start getting into problems where the smaller scale becomes more difficult or smaller enough that the properties change (going nano anyone?) there is an issue.
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Unread 07-10-2004, 12:04 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedViper
If you want niceties like MTBF ratings on WC products you’re going to have to wait until enough people are buying things, finding their weaknesses and complaining like crazy about them.
MBTF aren't niceties from my point of view, they will be mandatory in order to offer a new comercial attitude in environments where now you just don't and can't enter.

Right now for example you make a good? block, use a car radiator, an aquarium pump and presto, you're in business. Does that appeal to an organization?

When I say standstill, I seems that everyone is watching the others, but at the same time convinced that it's all ok for now, as if the business will run by itself, like you post "wait until enough people are buying things".
Only it's up to you to show the products you sell are ok, not waiting for something to happen, then react.
When someone trys a more professional approach, the costumers will see a difference and they will show their preferences.
This market will divide itself, and you either have the ability to compete or will be left behind.


To BillA
No info on that at the moment.

Last edited by Jag; 07-10-2004 at 12:14 PM.
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Unread 07-10-2004, 12:14 PM   #63
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Unread 07-10-2004, 01:22 PM   #64
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Default Mass-market is already happening

What about the new Apple G5 computers? Apple I'm sure plans to sell at least tens of thousands of them; not a number to brush off. And they have water-cooled components out of the box. The Apple propellerheads must've done some very thorough testing on those things before taking that much of a financial risk.

I'm sure it works, and must have some benefit compared to air-cooling or they wouldn't have done it. Also, the notion that typical users really have no idea whats in their computers applies to Macintosh users more than anybody. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If computers are going to keep getting faster than new cooling solutions will have to be introduced into the mainstream. The physics of shrinking chips just demands that...no way around it. So mass-market is going to happen with watercooling I think, probably after heatpipe HSF's are mainstream to the point of commoditization, which is happening now.

As far as enthusiasts go, I'll return to the car analogy, there are drivers and there are hot-rodders. You see a lot of little Honda Civics out there, a "mainstream" user, but every now and then you see one painted lizard green, running NOX with a six-inch exhaust tip and a airplane wing glued to the trunk...thats a "enthusiast!" Take whats stock and make it go faster...thats what overclocking your computer is basically.

Its already happened with air-coolers. Time was in 'puter world that using copper in your heatsink, or a 80mm fan, was extreme bleeding edge geekery. These days thats the stock Intel reference cooler. Crack open a Dell XPS and you will find a nicer HSF than anything that existed, even for the enthusiast, four years ago. The same thing will happen with water-cooling.

This all assumes Moore's law holds true for a while on the process side, and it looks like there are snags cropping up for everybody in the business at 90 nanometers. So if Moore's law stops, I have no idea of the future regarding coolers. All bets are off!
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Unread 07-10-2004, 01:34 PM   #65
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HAL-9000
did not (really ?) mean to ignore your question re origin
may I gently suggest you buy one ?
all will be known

"and must have some benefit compared to air-cooling or they wouldn't have done it"
possibly, that would seem to be the case though
but it is also product differentiation, for marketing
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Unread 07-10-2004, 01:42 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
So are clear plastics. I'll never make blocks with clear plastics again. They are all just too brittle.

The A64 top that you sent me already cracked I was having problems with air in the system I can home one day and the top of the cascade was cracked. I don't think it really matters how thick the acrylic is, it just cant handle pressure points. I didn't even have it that tight. I believe that for reliability an all copper block or brass top at the least is going to be necessary. I do like the idea of the swiftech block thats all sealed. Only problem is if it ever gets clogged it will be a pain to clean it out.

As for budget watercooled systems, its funny you guys are talking about this as our company is trying to find a decent sub$200 system that is decent quality and performs well. I have been telling them these cheap kits are going to be more trouble than they are worth. I hope they listen. I really dont want to handle all the upset people with crappy performance or reliability, especially the people that have leaks and have to hear their warranty on their hardware isn't good because of water damage. I don't think watercooling is anywhere near the price-point vs performance/quality it needs to be for it to be sucessful in a normal consumer market. People are so cheap, I don't see them paying more than $100 for a watercooling kit unless they are a real enthus, which probably account for about 5% of the computer users now at best. Plus dealing with the fact that 90% of problems today are caused by the consumer and not the product, doesn't lend support to the idea that they can even handle a watercooling installation. Bottom line, if you can program your VCR you can probably install a basic watercooling setup, unfortunately that leaves about 80% of the population in the dark
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Unread 07-10-2004, 02:10 PM   #67
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Quote:
and must have some benefit compared to air-cooling or they wouldn't have done it"
possibly, that would seem to be the case though
but it is also product differentiation, for marketing
I agree that marketing is very important for this task, and probably the main reason they did it. They could've easily jammed a pair of XP 120 type things in there and get similar performance with a better guarantee of safety.

infinity9: I think you should just advise them to avoid the whole water deal at all, unless they've actually got a good reason to go for them. Prescott heatsinks are nearly as good as water performance wise (well, close enough for more commercial tasks) much cheaper and safer as well.

Bill, how does one get a MTBF of 50,000 hours when it's only been in development for 2 years? Also, is the big version the MCP 1200 that was referred to a long time ago (stated to be too expensive for the vast majority of users, the power wouldn't be worth the price) ?
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Unread 07-10-2004, 02:48 PM   #68
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extrapolation of existing designs with long term data, shorter term testing to confirm correlation with other data
std stuff

the term of price/performance is incomplete, add noise, size, and - of course - reliability

slice it up as you wish, what a consumer does with each purchase
and what the predominance of cheap crap sales is saying
don't blame the suppliers (drug war come to mind); this country is quite fond of buying junk - and moving on, to buy some more

not called The Cathedrals of Consumerism for nothing
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Unread 07-10-2004, 03:41 PM   #69
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Default I actually just upgraded...to an Asetek Antarctica

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
HAL-9000
did not (really ?) mean to ignore your question re origin
may I gently suggest you buy one ?
all will be known

"and must have some benefit compared to air-cooling or they wouldn't have done it"
possibly, that would seem to be the case though
but it is also product differentiation, for marketing
I was in the market for a whole new setup until last week. I bought a Swiftech 22600-B kit because I like the kit, I wanted another MCP-600 for possible dual looping, but not the waterblock so much. The reasons are:

(1) I found the Antarctica for $39.99, about the same price as the MCW6000 series goes for, at jab-tech.com. The only "catch" to such a cheap price is I had to screw the top on it myself...boo-hoo. So price wasn't an issue. (2)The Antarctica performs more or less the same as a MCW-6000 series, at least the 3/8" ID version. (3)I can take the Antarctica apart and clean it, which I can't do with the MCW-6000 series very well, as demonstrated by phaestus. (4)I like quick connects, and with the 22600 kit and the Asetek, everything in the cooling loop is quick connect., which use to be the deal with Swiftech all round. The MCW-6000 is the first Swifty block I have seen in some time that doesn't use quick connects. (5)The Asetek product is aesthetically more appealing than the Swiftech. The only drawback is the acrylic top, which I don't normally trust. But the Asetek's is unusually thick, and I haven't seen reviewer or user feedback regarding problems, so I took the dive with the Asetek after all was said and done.

My previous block was a MCW-5002, which I may adapt for something else. I've always liked the MCW-5002, but the Swiftech doesn't cool as well as the latest WW clones such as the Asetek (or the MCW-6000 for that matter). Buying a Euro component was weird for me. I've almost always bought Swiftech stuff, and have always been a big fan of the company. I think I own around seven Swiftech HSF's of various flavors, including a pair of MC370's, which was the first enthusiast cooling product I ever bought, all those years ago in the Abit BP-6 Celery days (sniff, sniff). The MCP600 pump is the best pump currently out there for watercooling...period. Perhaps that C-Systems thing can give it some competition now.

One of the reasons I've always liked Swiftech was that the stuff you buy from them is made on top tools by top people. Thats why I'm curious about the origin of the MCW-6000 series.

As far as the Apple thing goes, I think they really needed WC'ing as an engineering solution more than marketing. After all, they only put it on their fastest G5, not the others, probably due to cost difference.

Last edited by HAL-9000; 07-10-2004 at 03:56 PM.
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Unread 07-10-2004, 05:33 PM   #70
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(1) I found the Antarctica for $39.99, about the same price as the MCW6000 series goes for, at jab-tech.com. The only "catch" to such a cheap price is I had to screw the top on it myself...boo-hoo. So price wasn't an issue. (2)The Antarctica performs more or less the same as a MCW-6000 series, at least the 3/8" ID version.
By Joe Citarella's testbed... I think pHaestus' is more accurate as it gives you the flow range and is also an actual setup...
Quote:
4)I like quick connects, and with the 22600 kit and the Asetek, everything in the cooling loop is quick connect., which use to be the deal with Swiftech all round. The MCW-6000 is the first Swifty block I have seen in some time that doesn't use quick connects.
Why do you want it so badly? That just limits your tubing choices.
Quote:
(5)The Asetek product is aesthetically more appealing than the Swiftech. The only drawback is the acrylic top, which I don't normally trust. But the Asetek's is unusually thick, and I haven't seen reviewer or user feedback regarding problems, so I took the dive with the Asetek after all was said and done.
Have you ever seen reviewers finding fault with any other acrylic top?
Quote:
I've always liked the MCW-5002, but the Swiftech doesn't cool as well as the latest WW clones such as the Asetek (or the MCW-6000 for that matter).
What? No seriously, what?
Quote:
One of the reasons I've always liked Swiftech was that the stuff you buy from them is made on top tools by top people. Thats why I'm curious about the origin of the MCW-6000 series.
See above... Bill Adams is the best...
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Unread 07-10-2004, 05:44 PM   #71
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AA
cool your jets
every consumer will evaluate a product's 'feature set' differently

HAL-9000
perhaps I did not understand your question; I designed and prototyped the MCW6000/6002 right here in Signal Hill
then helped work through the inevitable teething problems
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Unread 07-10-2004, 07:38 PM   #72
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Plot for Half-moon design





26-04-2003 = thread: http://forum.vapochill.com/showthrea...5&pagenumber=3
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Unread 07-10-2004, 08:24 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
By Joe Citarella's testbed... I think pHaestus' is more accurate as it gives you the flow range and is also an actual setup... Why do you want it so badly? That just limits your tubing choices. Have you ever seen reviewers finding fault with any other acrylic top? What? No seriously, what? See above... Bill Adams is the best...
I don't doubt the MCW-6000 is a very good waterblock. As far as Joe's testbed not being as good as phaestus's I could believe that I guess, though I don't know that for sure. But Joe's is nonetheless very good, and there is no Antarctica test by phaestus, which makes that point redundant anyways.

I like quick connects because I have become accustomed to the convenience with them in Swiftech parts ironically. Also, I tweak, I take stuff apart and put it back together again...a lot. For instance my current case is an Addtronics mid-tower, but in the very near future I am acquiring a Lian-Li V1100 and will have to transplant the whole water-rig to it, and re-cut all the tubing (when you see the inside of the V-1100, you realize it is the water-cooling case to have IMO). Quick connects will make that process easier for sure.

And yeah, I have seen issues with acrylic tops on blocks before. I know folks who have crackes theirs after applying to much pressure etc. The only reason I posted what I did is because unregistered suggested I buy a MCW-6000, and replied that I had just bought a block. The MCW-6000 was the other "contender" for my WC dollar, and I chose the Antarctica for reasons I outlined in the post, that's all.

And unregistered, to clarify my question I am curious where the blocks are actually manufactured. I am sure all kinds of prototyping goes on at Signal Hills that you can't talk about (damn!). But every waterblock or heatsink on Swifty's website except the MCW-6000 stuff has a little "Made in USA" icon on their respective product pages. So I am curious where they are manufactured. Another reason I am curious is the only outfit I have ever seen make a forged pin-heatsink is Alpha Novatech with their Microforging process. Does Alpha have a hand in making MCW-600x's? Where are the production units made?
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Unread 07-10-2004, 09:08 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
HAL-9000
did not (really ?) mean to ignore your question re origin
may I gently suggest you buy one ?
all will be known
. . . . .
still the same answer
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Unread 07-10-2004, 11:00 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
still the same answer
Ah, come on unregistered! You're such an outspoken guy around here, and then won't tell us where the actual product is even made? I walk away from this interaction knowing one thing for sure....those things aren't made here in the States, or else you would've trumpeted that I'm sure. I know one thing about the Antarctica...it wasn't made in Asia next door to a Nike shoe factory.
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