"Radius" by BigBen2k

[bigben2k]

Bump, and a pic of my Cascade SS:

[jaydee]

So is there any real reason pursure the Radius? I am pretty sure I am not going to be able to do it on my mill. After the last bunch of milling I have been watching it closely and am not liking what I am seeing as far as slop. I thought it was the table but I got that tightened up, not I am finding the ball screws have some slack. To much to do anything under 1/16" and even that might only be possible in plastic. I will find out over turkey day though.

[winewood]

would this one be easier to be made from a mold?

[bigben2k]

Hummm possibly, but the fins are really, really small. I don't have the knowledge or equipment to go that route.

I'll have to bug JFettig, once he's finished his CNC conversion.

[JFettig]

lol, yeah, Ill be able to do it without a problem.

a few specs for jaydee:
300oz steppers,@48v
Gecko drives with 10 microsteps
Preloaded ball screws.
Gecko drives+Preloaded ball screws=about .0005"
Spindle speed 0-2500rpm, and 0-9000rpm


Bigben, are you sure you dont want .5mm channels? LOL now that would take a few days


Jon

[jaydee]

Originally posted by JFettig

a few specs for jaydee:
300oz steppers,@48v
Gecko drives with 10 microsteps
Preloaded ball screws.
Gecko drives+Preloaded ball screws=about .0005"
Spindle speed 0-2500rpm, and 0-9000rpm
Jon

Sounds good Jon! You will like the 9000RPM.

[bigben2k]

Glad to see you're still around Jon!

No, the plan is set, and I'm going with it.


Imagine... this thread started in October of last year! (Hiding in shame...) Next time I even ponder doing anything like this, I'll make sure that I have my tools and other sources lined up first...

[Tacops]

*bump*

any news on the development bigben2k?

[siavash_s_s]

is that going to be lexan top or copper? im thinking that would look good to a consumer with lexan top

[bigben2k]

The top is Polycarbonate, 1/2" thick (1/4" would do).

The rest of the design is going to be in trying out various inlet nozzles. Once optimized, I can make a "fixed opening" top, and market it, but the extensive machining required here may put this block outside of most people's price range, and the performance isn't going to be much better than a White Water, if at all.

If there's any venture capitalist reading this: e-mail me

[Dieter@be]

oK I didnt read the whole topic but this I wanted to say:

1)Don't loose your motivation because you cant find the right manufactering method.
It would be a pity to make a nice block like this
into something like this just because the first one is a bit harder to machine.
(it is very obvious that the first one would perform much better then the 2nd)

2)about the exact location of the core (in reference to the mounting holes) you'll find anything you need here http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8412

3)I wonder why everyone always wants his water injected in the shape of a circle, when the core is rectangular. What do you think of my "adapter" idea (upper part of the block adapts the round fitting (from the water inlet) to a rectangular opening (to inject the water on the core). More info in this topic:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8380 (note 2 first pictures)

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by Dieter@be

...

3)I wonder why everyone always wants his water injected in the shape of a circle, when the core is rectangular. What do you think of my "adapter" idea (upper part of the block adapts the round fitting (from the water inlet) to a rectangular opening (to inject the water on the core). More info in this topic:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8380 (note 2 first pictures)

Not giving up.

3) Do you believe that the heat comes up inside the block in a square pattern?

Take a look at this animated GIF:

[Dieter@be]

This shows the process on a perspective I never thought of.

The way I interpret this:
there are two ways of heat source/ heat spreading
1)the heat starts right in the middle of the core and expands (thus forming circleshaped isothermes)
2)the core is the hottest spot (shape of rectangular) and around the core circleshaped isothermes

What I see here is the combination of those two. (something in between a circle and a rectangular, because the most heat comes out of the center of the core, but also "some" (but less) heat comes of the other part of the (rectangular) core)

right?

[killernoodle]

I see how the heat spreads out in a circular pattern kinda, but I dont understand how it spreads to the sides before the fin right above the core.

What is this a representation of? Is it just heat spreading on a bare waterblock or does the block have simulated coolant running through it?

EDIT: as for the comment about not being able to machine the block with current methods available, die casting seems to be a likely alternative. A rough casting of a block would then be machined on the bottom for flatness and around the core area for a good seal, but the actual cooling structures would benefit from the roughness of the casting: creating more surface area and turbulence than the machined block.

I have read a little on casting, and they say that copper has ideal casting properties, yet it takes a lot more than a wood fire to melt. MAPP gas can be used in the melting process, and a carbon basin will be needed to hold the copper to be melted. Another good thing about this is that you can stick a messed up waterblock in the basin for re-melting into a new waterblock. This would also save on material cost, as you could easily go to home depot and buy some copper pipe to stick in there and melt. A master mold could be made and you could easily sell the blocks in mass quantity due to the simplicity of repeating the process.

Molds can be made from simple clay, then a releasing agent is applied to the mold, then the copper is poured in and allowed to cool, then the mold is split apart and bingo! waterblock.

I assume this process would be less labor intensive, quicker, more repeatable, and most importantly, cheaper than actually machining all those little channels with a <1mm endmill.

[JFettig]

Ok killernoodle, tell me how you are going to make a mold?


and I beleve it spreads out in spiral pattern because of the big fin, and the water flow.
bigben2k, did you just find that somewhere, or do you have access to something like that to test with?


Jon

[killernoodle]

A mold can be made much easier than a waterblock because of the ease of clay to mill. You can actually use normal modeling clay, put it in a kiln to dry it, put that on a cnc machine or a mill, and grind out the negative of the waterblock. This would be easier on the radius because the pattern of the fins is more adept for milling than the channels would be. If they do not carry end mills that are the correct size, I believe dremel sells some for tile that would work perfectly. I might make something like this to test the theory, but I cannot melt copper with the stuff I have to work will so maybe lead or tin will have to do for a model of the process.

I believe Thermaltake uses casting for their waterblock for the aquarius (sp?) and, if I'm not mistaken, the top of the silverprop evolution all copper one is cast.

[JFettig]

Killer noodle, its much harder and more time consuming to do it that way, I am doing the actual machining of this block when I finish my mill, Its not as hard as you think it is. I have done a lot with small end mills, and bigben already has his 1mm end mills that he will send me to use.

Jon

[killernoodle]

How long will it take to mill the block? What will your feed rate be and what depth are you cutting? Im a very curious person

[JFettig]

I would guess that block would take around 45minutes to an hour. The maximum cut you can take with an end mill under 3/4" is 1/2*diameter wich would be .5mm. I usually take it a little under that to be safe.
The IPM I will have to figure out later, itll be around 2-6IPM.

Bigben, I hope those end mills are carbide! otherwize the feed will be like 1ipm and .01" depth cuts.

Jon

[bigben2k]

Oh yeah, they're carbide! ("Solid micrograin carbide", not coated).


The graph above was posted by a Frenchman (Roscal?) and shows the heat dissipation pattern through a typical "maze" block. I really don't remember any other details about it, unfortunately. Either way, the point was that the heat spreads radially from the shape of origin.


I recently came across a term called "cold casting", which has the advantage of not putting any air (or oxygen) in the copper. I haven' pursued it more than that. Surely it's casting at a relatively high temperature, but probably not as high as one might expect. On the other hand, maybe its more akin to filling the mold with copper bits, then gently melting it into shape... I really dunno.

[Huckleberry]

At the right temperature and pressure, copper (also aluminium, steel, etc.) becomes plastic. Shaping or adhesion can then be accomplished without introducing much in the way of contaminants. You can also avoid many of the fractures that normally form when a liquid metal cools from a liquid state back to a solid - thus preserving (and sometimes improving even) the crystalline structure of the original metal. I wouldn't be surprised if "cold casting" is using some of the same techniques. Casting can often introduce not only impurities and unwanted oxidation, but stress-fractures too. I can’t imagine that fractures of any type would improve the thermal conductivity of a waterblock.

Industry uses this technique extensively with friction-stir welding.

[bigben2k]

"Friction-stir welding" eh? Something else to look up...

[Tacops]

http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/unprotecte.../fswintro.html

Friction Still Welding Information

Some Pics on how the process works and what machine is needed
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2003/FSW/aaa.html

[JFettig]

It appears noone has said anything about the spiral heat output;
Do you guys actually think that it does have a sprial heat output?
I personally know, especially after seeing that, that it isnt the case.


Hint: take a look at the waterblock geometry.

Jon

[bigben2k]

Spiral: no. Radial: yes (more or less).