Apogee from Swiftech...

[JFettig]

jaydee, thats a big fat keycutter like thing, they actually can plow through pretty good sometimes.

Those .3mm fins look quite small and easily messupable.
I dont think i would want to cut much smaller than .02"

Jon

[FL3JM]

Roscal, thats one nice block there. By that i mean machiningly wise of course. The height of the fins are not that optimal for heat transfer considering the fins are around half a milimeter. But still, thats some awesome work!

[Joe]

So I still havent seen any info from Swiftech about the QC issues that these blocks have... If I was gabe I would be all about making this stuff right cause big chunks of copper flowing around your system isnt really a good thing.

[Orkan]

... nor is having a cracked top due to weak molding...
I still havn't got a response from anyone about this.

[jaydee]

They should be recalled if more than a few blocks have these problems.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Orkan

... nor is having a cracked top due to weak molding...
I still havn't got a response from anyone about this.

The thin/weak molding is especially bad as far as I am concerned. copper in the loop could clog up a raidator, or wear down an impeller/housing ... but having the top of a block open up and dump .... lots of money could go away then.

Orkan I would think that if you want to get more mindshare on that specificly why not start a thread about the quality issues with the Apogee. that seems to be what you are focused on and I thick could be useful.

[flatline]

seams all we have to go on is the opinion of an Xswiftecher who implys there test bed is fine and there data stands.... till some1 we all trust tests it (looks at ph) its all wild speculashon/wet patches/dead pumps

[BillA]

for sure the opinion of any/all is superior to actual experience
ah procooling, at heart still fanboyism

flatline you are an ass, my 'opinion' is based on facts and experience - something no one else here has with a TTV
repeatable data is defined as good, the bed and method are defined by Swiftech
- it is Stew who is speculating and casting aspersions on a test platform he has never used, and of course his followers who have 'trust' chime in like hounds on the scent contributing nothing but speculations – any and all of which trump any facts

I'm waiting for Stew to tell us the data is wrong, but he already has.
wrong data is a null concept, it is correct or not
if you are unable to understand this, set your filter for those you 'trust' (select Stew not BillA)

did Stew approve your ‘trusted source’ list ?
will you share it with us ?
is there a hierarchy to resolve conflicts ? or is that done by vote ?
or by Stew directly ? (he is the ‘most trusted’ no ?)

[flatline]

i didnt bring any names to my post

"ah procooling, at heart still fanboyism" says king fan boy himself you allready posted all about "swiftech ripoffs" b4 actualy looking what post was on about

"for sure the opinion of any/all is superior to actual experience" did u personaly test the water block? if so pls post YOUR results in YOUR icle kingdom

"I'm waiting for Stew to tell us the data is wrong" im waiting for his gpu block (long overdue) strange what we wait 4

"set your filter for those you 'trust' (select Stew not BillA)"
il set my filter to ppl who are not just about to insult other ppl and inflate there own sence worth

"did Stew approve your ‘trusted source’ list ?"
you seam obbsessed with stew do you have a crush on him ?

"will you share it with us ?"
there is no us there is you on your all knowing thrown and us "uninformed"

"is there a hierarchy to resolve conflicts ? or is that done by vote ?
or by Stew directly ? (he is the ‘most trusted’ no ?)"

stew stew stew its all his folt (crush showing again?)

[Joe]

I am starting to think the Apogee is just a bad F'n omen. I don't think theres ever been this much controversy over a block.

[flatline]

free advertizeing rules!

[AngryAlpaca]

you seam obbsessed with stew do you have a crush on him ?

Really, nice comeback. I mean... well... Ugh.

[BillA]

just annoyed that a good methodology was dismissed by speculation
that others follow w/o analysis is regretable

you realize that no testing will change the performance of the wb ?
we are spectators

[flatline]

wud like to know as his name seamed to have jumped in to a post ALOT id quite like to why he was pointed to no less than 4 times out of the blue? another thread gone off topic? oh yes we talking about testbeds.... right..

[Joe]

I got an idea... why don't you 2 hop into chat, and sort this out.. just click the link at the top of the page, then you can get this all taken care of without the tennis like batting back and forth.

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/javachat.php

right there

[maxSaleen]

The "U.S. Open" of the procooling forums.

....anyone else notice that this thread has become ENORMOUS?

[BillA]

I made 2 posts on this page, is that a problem Joe ?
you hyper too ?
I put fl on the ignore list, done here; I'll let the thread be as well
Ta

[Joe]

No bill not hyper, just dont want to see another 4 page argument break out. a lil drama is cool, but maybe its just me getting tired of it this weekend. (pretty much I would like to be able to go back working on the site and not having to referee a thread..)

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Joe

No bill not hyper, just dont want to see another 4 page argument break out. a lil drama is cool, but maybe its just me getting tired of it this weekend. (pretty much I would like to be able to go back working on the site and not having to referee a thread..)

Not even sure what the argument is about anymore. I don't like to rely on manufacture data anyway. Not that it is wrong but it isn't verified and not verified on a platform that I would use.

But it really dosn't matter at this point. The block isn't even functional at this point it seems.

[gone_fishin]

I think all of us should be thankfull that someone who has had direct contact and experience with a TTV has posted about it here.
It is made by Intel (who has massive R&D budget) whereas those here cannot even make a stoneage heatdie setup that a caveman would appreciate.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

I think all of us should be thankfull that someone who has had direct contact and experience with a TTV has posted about it here.
It is made by Intel (who has massive R&D budget) whereas those here cannot even make a stoneage heatdie setup that a caveman would appreciate.

Indeed. Not sure what good it does any of us in the end though.

[gone_fishin]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Indeed. Not sure what good it does any of us in the end though.

For me as a reader I extrapolated much information from the fact BillA used one and Cathar never has (although he seems to have been privy to some top secret data generated from it's use).
The contested comparison of the two blocks in question has Swiftech giving data all generated from the use of a TTV wheras Cathar generated his own non-disclosed (we are left to just trust him on this) data from some home mobo setup.
BillA has stated that all the comparison Swiftech data were generated from the same methodology and testbed using the Intel TTV.
Further it is clear to me that the actual temp of any die is not of value because the temp of the IHS (or case temp as they call it) is more usefull because it eliminates one variable (the extra tim layer). The more variables elliminated, increases the value of the data. Keeping this concept in mind, the TTV package IMO is more likely to have the sensors arrayed in a more precisely consistant manner than any home brewed testing methodology (elliminating or minimalizing another variable).
Given we take for granted that all of Swiftechs data is generated from the same test model (the main componant of which was made by Intel), we do have consistant data to go by. Cathar provided zero data.

True, nobody will be able to exactly replicate a TTV at home for comparison but how can we bitch about a company trying to provide us with data using an industry standard tool?

Remember the days of blocks selling on bling, putting pigtailed shaped curly cues in the channels or just following DIY trends with no real data to back them up?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

For me as a reader I extrapolated much information from the fact BillA used one and Cathar never has (although he seems to have been privy to some top secret data generated from it's use).
The contested comparison of the two blocks in question has Swiftech giving data all generated from the use of a TTV wheras Cathar generated his own non-disclosed (we are left to just trust him on this) data from some home mobo setup.
BillA has stated that all the comparison Swiftech data were generated from the same methodology and testbed using the Intel TTV.
Further it is clear to me that the actual temp of any die is not of value because the temp of the IHS (or case temp as they call it) is more usefull because it eliminates one variable (the extra tim layer). The more variables elliminated, increases the value of the data. Keeping this concept in mind, the TTV package IMO is more likely to have the sensors arrayed in a more precisely consistant manner than any home brewed testing methodology (elliminating or minimalizing another variable).
Given we take for granted that all of Swiftechs data is generated from the same test model (the main componant of which was made by Intel), we do have consistant data to go by. Cathar provided zero data.

True, nobody will be able to exactly replicate a TTV at home for comparison but how can we bitch about a company trying to provide us with data using an industry standard tool?

Remember the days of blocks selling on bling, putting pigtailed shaped curly cues in the channels or just following DIY trends with no real data to back them up?

I wasn't so much complaining about the data so much anymore but more so the usefulness of it. Which TTV model did they use? What CPU was being replicated? How does the data transfer to other Intel CPU's and more importantly, to me, AMD CPU's?

Also don't get to exited about the TTV. Even Intel says it shouldn't be used for such testing.

[Albigger]

Finally hooked up my apogees to the wmd30 I have. Neither appear to leak as of yet (was holding my breath on that one). Though I will have to be careful with the tubing attached to the barbs, I can easily see how a misguided hand could yank the tubing too hard and cause the top plate to crack.


Anyway, I did a few 'bucket' flow tests. Actually I measured out 56 liters into a large container and did the tests with that. I timed 4 trials on each of 3 setups:
1st setup: pump with tubing on inlet and outlet
2nd setup: pump with same tubing and 1 apogee block connected (1/2" barbs)
3rd setup: pump with same tubing and 2 apogee blocks connected (1/2" barbs)

Graph and Data table attached. Graph includes WMD-30RZT curve (taken from reefs.org info), Apogee C/W (swiftech data, plotted on secondary axis), Apogee pressure drop (taken from swiftech data) and 2xApogee pressure drop (for my second block in series). The pressure drop data was extrapolated to hit the wmd curve. The vertical lines are the three average flow rates I 'measured.' (In quotes because I don't have the equipment to properly do such. But hopefully this isn't complete garbage)

EDIT (added):
The pressure drop I infer due to the apogee blocks seems well under what the swiftech graph shows - IF the iwaki manuf. data is to be trusted. Has there been an independent PQ curve done for the 30RZT? (Since Bill backs up Swift. testing I'm more inclined to believe that for now...) Anyway, continuing on (using probably wrong PQ curve): At ~3.9 gpm the predicted (extrapolated from swift data) PD for the apogee is ~14 ft of water or 6.07psi. The actual PD found from the flow rate and iwaki PQ curve is more like ~4 ft of water or 1.7psi. The added pressure drop from the second block, only another 3.5 ft of water (1.5 psi) at 3.5 gpm, where the data predicts there should be a drop of ~ 12 ft of water (5.2 psi).

--Jay

[Incoherent]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

I think all of us should be thankfull that someone who has had direct contact and experience with a TTV has posted about it here.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

It is made by Intel (who has massive R&D budget) whereas those here cannot even make a stoneage heatdie setup that a caveman would appreciate.

I think I resent that. My heat die is at least late Bronze age.