|
|
General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
Thread Tools |
12-05-2005, 07:22 AM | #426 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
There are TTV-to-CPU correction formulas that can be applied to all TTV-obtained results to produce die results, and those exist for EVERY cpu on the market (AMD and Intel). The correction factors account for heatflux differences etc etc. Problem is, I think Intel are the only folks that KNOW what those correction formulas are for each TTV - and with never being in the position of acquiring one, don't know if they share that info with the TTV purchaser etc...
If correction formulaes for each CPU bed-type (eg: Socket A/ Sempron bare die, A64 IHS, A64 Dual Core) are applied and graphed, and a simple confirmatory test done to see whether realworld matches corrected TTV data, then battle is solved... yes? Provided results become more useful... (?) Logic would say Swiftech could easily contact them and get this info and apply it (but likely won't)... which would give the customer something more of use to base comparison from... If not, p'raps attempts need to be made to get it... (in progress already) |
12-05-2005, 12:25 PM | #427 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Finding even a simple analysis a can of worms
|
12-05-2005, 02:34 PM | #428 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 400
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Ah Les, surely a man of your talents could work out a solution to the fourier equation for an IHS + heat die. Might want to try STRAND7, its an FEA (doesn’t do fluids) package the demo goes up to 100 elements which might just do for your tasks
There is no true (as in perfectly true) calibration factor for cpus as there is two sets of data that need to be know. The absolute heat flux and the distribution of this heat flux. Give that the dim sims mentioned on this board are based on constant surface temperature / heat flux distribution there is going to be some difference that may or may not be significant. The distribution of the heat energy “flow” is a unknown for cpus and will probably remain that way. One solution might be to ignore it and say that heat distribution to the WB or a at least a short distance inside it becomes constant. To model the increased resistance because of the longer heat path some kind of constant can be used. Generating this constant other than clicking the random number generator; guesstimation in your head might be a little tricky. The proper solution would be to look at statistical distributions in real cpus and pick an appropriate value. This might help with heat distributions as well if you could include them. Further more with knowledge about cpu heat output distribution you could include that as well. I have a feeling that intels formula is empirical using stats from a large number of cpus. Get some chips test the output, put a resistance in. From these results find a conservative value for what the factor should be(or indeed the form of the factor. Could say that thermal paste thickness is increased by X or ideal resistance multiplied by some number). Obviously DIYers can’t do this. A statistical model using FEA could easily be developed with perfect knowledge about the manufacturing (FEA all possible paths and get a result). We don’t have a perfect data but we can guess. The unknowns are: CPU total heat output – Guess able or non dimensionalise. CPU heat distribution – hard. Constant heat flux might be appropriate. I think being a little smart and saying the cache is cooler than the processing units might be valid. Distribution of thermal compound – This again is hard. We’re going to need some BC’s here to help. Geometry of HIS – this is obviously some manufacturing variations, indeed are we even going to say the same about the core (given the process for making a core I would say that saying its perfectly flat and level is a suitable assumption). Material properties – some silicon to model the core, thermal paste is doable, I H S is doable as well. Interface properties if we chose to include them might be hard. Block properties – Do we include the interface there, I assume just use Bills data, but the distribution might prove troublesome. My suggestion would be: Assume we’ve got material properties and say the I h s conforms exactly to available data. Data on heat output from cpus is around. The temperature distribution can be made up by some guy with a beard (preferably long, with pizza in it :P), even have it as a changing distribution(ie manufacturing difference between cpus, could do further test to show influence on OCing etc. Thermal paste distribution is then the troublesome bit. We can however say what the limiting value is as we can guess when the core can shut down due to heat with the bare minimum craptastic heat sink. We can also guess what perfectly applied thermal paste would look like. Easy option then is run FEA on this millions of times to show what a random distribution of the variables would look like. This then gives you an approximate model of heat distribution on the surface of the I h s (so you can tell if its approximately constant or not) and a good GUESS at thermal resistance of the rig. This kind of procedure of empirical FEA is carried out by a few companies to check that parts as a group won’t fail etc. It will take awhile however on computers. Its not SETI but a good evenings work and computer time. |
12-05-2005, 11:52 PM | #429 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ohio
Posts: 140
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
|
12-06-2005, 12:01 AM | #430 | ||
Put up or Shut Up
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Quote:
Interesting page: http://www.systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-13.html |
||
12-06-2005, 12:31 AM | #431 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Good review Lee.
|
12-06-2005, 12:34 AM | #432 |
c00ling p00n
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 758
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Seems to me Swiftech should rename the block - Apologee?
__________________
*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* E6700 @ 3.65Ghz / P5W DH Deluxe / 2GB 667 TeamGroup / 1900XTX PC Power & Cooling Turbo 510 Deluxe Mountain Mods U2-UFO Cube Storm G5 --> MP-01 --> PA 120.3 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." 1,223,460+ Ghz Folding@Home aNonForums *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* |
12-06-2005, 02:08 AM | #433 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden
Posts: 410
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Another nice review Lee.
Rather damning. |
12-06-2005, 03:34 AM | #434 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Bobo,Strand7 appears to be 21st century and I don't go beyond 20th. I will leave the field clear for you
Quote:
Bronze Age shows promise if coupled with 21st century analysis. Models in attachment are all single TIM inclusive Edit: Removed "alien point" from graphs Last edited by Les; 12-06-2005 at 03:49 AM. |
|
12-06-2005, 03:58 AM | #435 | ||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vallentuna, Sweden
Posts: 410
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
12-06-2005, 04:08 AM | #436 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
2) Will probably have a look at free thingies like Strand with view to application to an Iron Age die. |
|
12-06-2005, 04:20 AM | #437 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: North of France
Posts: 198
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Nice job Lee ! |
|
12-06-2005, 04:21 AM | #438 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ohio
Posts: 140
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
*deleted <brain not awake> *
Last edited by Albigger; 12-06-2005 at 04:42 AM. |
12-06-2005, 04:35 AM | #439 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
1)spreading is a most important factor. 2)missing (a) TIM (b) the influence of furniture area . |
|
12-06-2005, 04:38 AM | #440 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ohio
Posts: 140
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
2) (a) true. was not attempting to model at this time (b) the rest of the block? Edit: realized NEED to model TIM based on temp taken (should get some sleep before posting). Will delete erroneous post above. Last edited by Albigger; 12-06-2005 at 04:45 AM. |
|
12-06-2005, 04:45 AM | #441 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 400
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Once i learn STAR CD or ANSYS CFX (commercial high end/ moderately high end CFD), does that mean that i will then move into Future tech? :P
OR hatch a cunning plan to start rapid prototyping blocks in my bedroom via mail order. Storm G7 alike with less pressure drop (3d porting) and slightly lower performance (copper ploymer matrix, only moderate thermal conductivity) for half the price (lloking at maybe $100 a block to manufacture) with your name and maybe something funny in 3d on the top (skull or something as that would be well l33t). |
12-06-2005, 04:53 AM | #442 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
My estimates Effective Cup Base Area=330.8391314 mm^2 Effective Cup Wall Area=1694.330101 mm^2 Consider separately to apply "efficiency factor" to wall area. See Post330 Edit That is the Storm G4 Model Same applies to Apogee but use Pin Area and "Channel base" area. Apogee Total Pin Area=5936.4 mm^2 Channel base Area=672.0 mm^2 on 1141.2 mm^2 's square of bp Last edited by Les; 12-06-2005 at 05:08 AM. |
|
12-06-2005, 05:05 AM | #443 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 400
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
doesnt quite work like that for storm, area is a non-linear function of performance.
Send me an email via pm, i think i can show you how to model it near precisely (stew has a few performance tricks up his sleeves). You better know how to do geometric scaling though (have data for 4mm jets). |
12-06-2005, 05:05 AM | #444 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ohio
Posts: 140
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Thanks. will take a closer look at previous post.
re: pin area and channel area I have apogee modeled if you need them. My numbers (mostly) agree with the ones Lee quoted in review, although he says .9mm channel and I measure ~1mm (will have to verify with gauge pins when I can stop by work again). |
12-06-2005, 05:17 AM | #445 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Post Model in thread,several wish to learn. As you should have gathered(eg here and link within) I only modelled the Storm as a last resort because nobody else would. Edit: Added link Last edited by Les; 12-06-2005 at 05:48 AM. |
|
12-06-2005, 05:19 AM | #446 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 400
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Since i just read it i thought that you might as well use this les. Some one modeled a storm type blocks heat transfer (using the nusselt number as)
(Nu / Pr^0.53) * (D/d)^2 = 32.49 * Re^0.523 [jet impingment effect] + 0.266*(D/d -8) * Re^0.828 [wall region] This is for gases and high Re's (2000) but it shows a model of the effect. |
12-06-2005, 05:30 AM | #447 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wigan UK
Posts: 929
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Show models, both the "unnamed some one" and your own.
|
12-06-2005, 05:36 AM | #448 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 400
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
k, but i dont have my own, as im not that good.
source for the one above is Sitharamayya S; Raju KS (1969) Heat transfer between an axisymetric jet and a plate held normal to the flow. The distance between the jet and the plate surface is not given so its a little simple. Probably should use DIYer units instead of scientists. |
12-06-2005, 06:06 AM | #449 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: inside my computers
Posts: 113
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
My own testing shows the apogee performing quite well on my X2. Only problem;The weak ass top. After seeing it X-sectioned... I'm pissed. No way, can that thin of plastic support any type of load.
I'm afraid to push my hoses on. |
12-06-2005, 06:27 AM | #450 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 400
|
Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
The thin point is at a stress concentration (a corner) as well, they could of easily curved that section and got rid fo the problem. If they've doen the injection moulding dies now then they can't really change it.
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|