extreme low temperature pumps

[RussoRHV]

I'm working as an engineering intern trying to replace a pump for one of our projects. The pump needs to be able to move acetone at up to -90 degrees Celsius.

The problem with the current pump that we are using is that it costs over $700. We are looking for the cheapest solution possible.

Does anybody know of a pump that can operate at such an extremely low temperature and with acetone?

[billbartuska]

WHOA THERE!

Do you really want to ask a bunch of (most of us anyway) crazy home experimenters about mixing flammable liquids under pressure and electricity? I, for one, wouldn't even consider answering such a question.

I would check out the major pump manufacture’s web sites and follow up with questions to their local reps.

And, when using flammable materials that can generate explosive vapors it's the wrong time to be seeking the lowest price. What you want is equipment that will get the job done and keep you alive.

Think of visiting one of your fellow students in the hospital and trying to figure out how to justify to them that you saved a few hundred dollars on a pump that caused their injury.
"Well, I didn't think it would...."

And, I'd make sure your supervisors don't find out that you would seek advice on such a question in an unorthodox place such as this.

Your asking such a question shows dedication and ambition, where you are asking shows cause for doubting your ability to think clearly.

[RussoRHV]

I appreciate the concern. My supervisor actually was keen on the idea that I ask around at cooling/overclocking forums.

Don't worry, I'm not going to be negligent about selecting a pump. I just want to get an idea of what pumps work and what pumps don't work at such a low temperature and with acetone. The $700 pump will work great, but unfortunately our client wants us to find a cheaper one.

This cooling system is not my own design. My area of expertise is electrical systems. So if you know of good pumps, please let me know. Don't be afraid that somebody will get hurt because we will consult with the manufacturer and test the pump very carefully before using it with acetone.

Also, if you have an idea of how to cool down to such low temperatures via other methods, please let me know and I can pass it along to the guys who designed the cooling system.

thanks.

[JamesAvery22]

Hrmmm Iwaki's spec sheet for their MD series pumps says the temp ranges are 0c to 70-80c... But I know there are people that use Iwaki's for subzero chiller setups.

-90c is a little extreme compared to that though...

[JamesAvery22]

After a bit of reading on xtremesystem's forums it looks like you can keep the pump from cracking at lower temps by insulting it.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=38810

Not sure if an Iwaki would be a good idea then. They insulated the entire pump. Iwaki's get hot. And you can't insulate the pump head from the pump housing which is metal and gets hot from the motor.

Pump head at below -40c attached to a metal frame that gets up to 40c+ would probably much too large of a temperature differential.

Lots of people with chillers use Danner mag drive pumps. That insulated one in that thread is a Mag5


edit, same thread they talk about submersing a mag pump so you dont have to insulate it. Will acetone eat a rubber seal? I think it will =\

[RussoRHV]

Thanks James!

The information you gave me was very helpful.

[snowwie]

insulate the impellor housing....but not the motor...if you read around xtremesystems you'll find that the same guy who used a mag5 (fully insulated) with a chiller forgot (maybe didn't know any better) to the turn off the pump when the computer and chiller were off....the mag5 heated the fluid (likely flammable) to such high temps that the tubing and pump itself melted, along with insulation and anyway BAD idea.
edit: jeez rereading this i just realized what a dangerous hobby some people take this to...

what specs you looking for? dc or ac power?

DC pumps i say the laing D4/D5 would be good. the noryl impellor housing looks like it would withstand low temps. impellor itself seems as durable if not more than any other PC watercooling pump. AC power... iwaki, panworld they would all probably work, they all have for others

james,
insulating the entire pump would have the same effect as submersing it, as far as performance (temp) goes.

[Dave]

Russo I work for C-Systems, and more of interest AVT International.

AVT designs and develops specialized DC pumps for OEM applications, in fact we have three different pumps on the board (more like in the computer) or in tooling now.

Just send us the specifications and we will get back to you.

I know we have designed pumps for -45C, not sure off hand if it is acetone compatible.

[RussoRHV]

Thanks Dave,
Here are the specifications we need:
Temperature in the -80c range, flow rate somewhere between .75 and 2 l/min, and a motor that is either brushless DC, or options to run on the various world power systems. It also needs to be acetone proof.

[Dave]

^ Thanks, email me direct since I can not openly discuss OEM pumps in inventory.
dave@c-systems.ca

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by RussoRHV

The pump needs to be able to move acetone at up to -90 degrees Celsius.

Dare we ask what you are doing with -90C acetone? From the temp (just above acetone's freezing point) I'd guess it was important to have "acetone as cold as possible" rather than "some fluid that isn't gaseous at room temp/pressure and still liquid at -90C". So maybe preparing bio samples?
I'm also curious how you are getting it to -90. The easy/obvious/probably-wrong one is that you are simply boiling off nitrogen (too cold -200C or so - acetone freezes) or maybe dry ice (nah - too warm - only -75C or so) Some kind of condense/evap loop? Even that'd have to be somewhat exotic given the temp.

PS: I'm just curious - answers would satisfy my curiosity (and maybe some other folks here) bur probably won't net you any better answers than you've already got (I've no clue about what works with -90C acetone, except... maybe you should check out what the bio guys are doing to handle really-cold acetone - unless you are one of those bio guys and already know all about that...

[Nugit]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

I'm also curious how you are getting it to -90. The easy/obvious/probably-wrong one is that you are simply boiling off nitrogen (too cold -200C or so - acetone freezes) or maybe dry ice (nah - too warm - only -75C or so) Some kind of condense/evap loop? Even that'd have to be somewhat exotic given the temp.

Normal phase change would do, or a cascade. The temp depends on the gas you use, with the right combo -90 is quite possible.

[Brians256]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

Dare we ask what you are doing with -90C acetone? From the temp (just above acetone's freezing point) I'd guess it was important to have "acetone as cold as possible" rather than "some fluid that isn't gaseous at room temp/pressure and still liquid at -90C". So maybe preparing bio samples?
I'm also curious how you are getting it to -90. The easy/obvious/probably-wrong one is that you are simply boiling off nitrogen (too cold -200C or so - acetone freezes) or maybe dry ice (nah - too warm - only -75C or so) Some kind of condense/evap loop? Even that'd have to be somewhat exotic given the temp.

PS: I'm just curious - answers would satisfy my curiosity (and maybe some other folks here) bur probably won't net you any better answers than you've already got (I've no clue about what works with -90C acetone, except... maybe you should check out what the bio guys are doing to handle really-cold acetone - unless you are one of those bio guys and already know all about that...

Maybe he's doing microfluidic chromatography? Those bio guys are always making their own systems because there really hasn't been a packaged solution for them yet.