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Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it

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Unread 03-30-2003, 08:27 PM   #76
theetruscan
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graystar
Did you mean the CPU wattage?

The temperature is coming from the internal die.

The power consumption comes from AMD tech docs for my processor when at maximum load. I use the AMD CPUid utility to verify my processor model as a 680 2200+.
I think he does mean the temperature. The probes are not absolutely accurate. They are relatively accurate (i.e. can be used for rough comparisons of different cooling) but treating the temperature the die reads as meaningful isn't workable.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 08:02 AM   #77
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I think the real problem with my measurements is that people don't like the idea of this tiny little block working at all because it goes against all the things they believe.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 08:25 AM   #78
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Oh quit taking it personal!

I for one am very impressed with the performance (even though I still don't approve of the mount). I think that using a 3mm baseplate will give interesting results, and I just can't wait to see it.

There is however something to be said about accuracy. We all know that a mobo probe can be off by 10 degC, and although AMD specs are nice, we've demonstrated that the actual/real wattage can be off too.

It's just hard to say for sure, that's why we have BillA.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 09:46 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
Oh quit taking it personal!
Okay. I'll try.

Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
I for one am very impressed with the performance (even though I still don't approve of the mount). I think that using a 3mm baseplate will give interesting results, and I just can't wait to see it.
Where *is* that baseplate? Although, if I were you I'd prepare myself for anti-climatic results. I suspect the temps will be about the same, as the heat has no place to go but up (just like the thin base.)

Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
There is however something to be said about accuracy. We all know that a mobo probe can be off by 10 degC, and although AMD specs are nice, we've demonstrated that the actual/real wattage can be off too.
I understand that. But it's all I got.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 10:08 AM   #80
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It should be delivered to me today or tomorrow. (including the stock copper for my CPU and HDD blocks).
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Unread 03-31-2003, 10:47 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graystar
Did you mean the CPU wattage?

The power consumption comes from AMD tech docs for my processor when at maximum load. I use the AMD CPUid utility to verify my processor model as a 680 2200+.
Link and page number?

Is that the "typical" power consumption or the "maximum" power consumption?

What is the spec'd difference between "typical" and "maximum" power consumption?

Where does your particular processor fall on the (probably) Guassian curve for power consumption of these CPU's?

What constitutes maximum load? (Hint: Folding is not it.)

How much heat is traveling down the CPU pins to the motherboard?

Trust me, I'd like to believe that a block this simple is as good as White Water. You certainly haven't provided evidence for it though.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 11:09 AM   #82
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Default just some info.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/25175.pdf

Edited : This is a better one, page 34. And going forward it gives a brief discription on the oscillations of the core voltage. And some thermal calculations on Appendix A.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 11:39 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Since87
Link and page number?

Is that the "typical" power consumption or the "maximum" power consumption?

What is the spec'd difference between "typical" and "maximum" power consumption?
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/25175.pdf
Document page 22. PDF page 34.
Max is 67.9, typical is 61.7, giving a difference of 6.2W
Quote:
Where does your particular processor fall on the (probably) Guassian curve for power consumption of these CPU's?
Who knows? Who cares?
Quote:
What constitutes maximum load? (Hint: Folding is not it.)
Win2K tells me my processors are at 100% so that's what I go by. If you'd rather, take the typical and add 7 watts from my submersed pump.
Quote:
How much heat is traveling down the CPU pins to the motherboard?
About the same as everyone else's processors.

An un-sinked AMD burns up in 3 seconds. All secondary heat routes are, therefore, insignificant.
Quote:
Trust me, I'd like to believe that a block this simple is as good as White Water. You certainly haven't provided evidence for it though.
I never said that it was. Everyone knows that the C/W ratings calculated by Bill A are not comparable to motherboard testing. That's comparing apples to oranges.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 12:12 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graystar
But, I could have misinterpreted something. Anyone see any mistakes?
I guess you didn't really want answers when you wrote this?
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Unread 03-31-2003, 12:28 PM   #85
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Try using the program Cpu Burn-in. With processors using cached routines, you need a program that uses most of the instruction sets to generate the heat of a 100% cpu load. Try it out and see.

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CPU Burn-in v1.0 by Michal Mienik is the ultimate stability testing tool for overclockers. The program heats up any x86 CPU to the maximum possible operating temperature that is achievable by using ordinary software. This allows the user to adjust the CPU speed up to the practical maximum while still being sure that stability is achieved even under the most stressful conditions. The program continuously monitors for erroneous calculations and errors ensuring the CPU does not generate errors during calculations performed under overclocking conditions. -quote from text file in app.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 12:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Since87
I guess you didn't really want answers when you wrote this?
Oh, was that meant to be an answer?

I didn't realize that measuring the heat transfer through 462 tiny pins was an operation that hobbyist commonly perform. My mistake.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 01:03 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graystar
But, I could have misinterpreted something. Anyone see any mistakes?
Ok, I guess I wasn't being very direct. Here you go:

You don't know the amount of heat that is conducting through the base of your waterblock, and you don't actually know the temperature of your CPU.

Therefore your C/W calculation is meaningless in any absolute sense.

Better?
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Unread 03-31-2003, 01:50 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by winewood
Try using the program Cpu Burn-in. With processors using cached routines, you need a program that uses most of the instruction sets to generate the heat of a 100% cpu load. Try it out and see.
Thanks for the tip. I download it and tried it but my results were not as expected.

First, this appears to be a single processor application. I *was* able to start two instances, and both my processors were at 100%. However, I don't know of this is okay. Only the developer will know.

Anyways, after 20 minutes of this app running, my temperature dropped by 1C. In my own strange way, this makes sense to me. When FAH starts up, you see it consume about 2 megs for the console and about 5 meg of RAM for the core. However, the system memory usage increase by 65MB! I believe that there is a *tremendous* amount of I/O being performed by FAH. As we know, I/O occurs at twice the voltage of core processing.

Well, that's my dime-store analysis. In any case, the bottom line is that this program did not increase my CPU temperature at all. But it's also very likely that the dual processors had something to do with it.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:02 PM   #89
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I see about 5-6C temperature increase running K7Burn at high priority vs folding @ home. Both applications report 100% CPU usage

By now you guys SURELY have known that you can't compare temps among each other right?

And the dual motherboard that reads the diode temp? Asus by any chance? http://www.voidyourwarranty.net/revi...cop/index.php3

Ok carry on
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:12 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Since87
Ok, I guess I wasn't being very direct. Here you go:

You don't know the amount of heat that is conducting through the base of your waterblock, and you don't actually know the temperature of your CPU.

Therefore your C/W calculation is meaningless in any absolute sense.

Better?
Yes, much better than that beating-around-the-bush stuff.

While running the CPU Burn-in software that winwood suggested, my temperature seemed to drop by a degree. I shut that down and started folding again. Now my temperature is back up by a degree. This tells me that I'm running at a very high usage, so I know that the power consumption is somewhere between typical (61.7) and max (67.9) watts, probably much closer to max. Will using the average of the two make you happy. Probably not.

I go by the internal die diode because I have no other way. However, most people use the same method. That makes our results *relatively* comparable. I never said my results are absolute. If you had bothered to read the previous postings, you'd know that I was simply posting the numbers in response to a suggestion given by bigben2k. I was not trying to make some out-of-the-blue claim to being the best waterblock available. I know that it isn't.

How about making some constructive comments?
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:19 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by pHaestus
I see about 5-6C temperature increase running K7Burn at high priority vs folding @ home. Both applications report 100% CPU usage

By now you guys SURELY have known that you can't compare temps among each other right?

And the dual motherboard that reads the diode temp? Asus by any chance? http://www.voidyourwarranty.net/revi...cop/index.php3

Ok carry on
Where can I get K7Burn? Is there a Windows 2K version?

I have a Tyan MPX 2466S-4M board with two model 680 2200+ XPs (L5 Mod)
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:26 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graystar
I think the real problem with my measurements is that people don't like the idea of this tiny little block working at all because it goes against all the things they believe.
nooo
your numbers are but script having no real basis in fact

"By now you guys SURELY have known that you can't compare temps among each other right?"

and the simple reason is that the temps are 'bogus', and the Watts are make-believe
and the product of bogus X make-believe = bullshit

constructive: compare YOUR "A" to YOUR "B"
thats all you can do

and the fact that 'everyone else does it that way' should tell you immediately that you are wrong
spend a couple of hours reading pHaestus' past posts, then you will give this a rest
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:37 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
constructive: compare YOUR "A" to YOUR "B"
READ THE VERY FIRST POST!

constructive: learn the dynamics of the discussion before commenting.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:37 PM   #94
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Yeah... what Bill said.

If you had another block, one that Bill's tested before (preferably), and you measured temps with it, we'd be in a much better position to tell you how well you're actually doing.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:41 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
If you had another block, one that Bill's tested before (preferably), and you measured temps with it, we'd be in a much better position to tell you how well you're actually doing.
Sorta defeats the purpose of making your own block, don't you think?
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Unread 03-31-2003, 02:53 PM   #96
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again, noooo
making wbs is one thing
and comparative testing quite another

testing won't make your, or anyone's, wb any better
testing will, if done with a modicum of intelligence, show one how their wb compares with another

but if the 'testing' is done without understanding the limitations of the equipment, AND knowledge of the assumptions made and their consequences, then the results are crap

you do not seem to have a grasp of this (yet ?)
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Unread 03-31-2003, 03:04 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graystar
Sorta defeats the purpose of making your own block, don't you think?
Tell me about it!

I almost picked up a Swiftech block, a couple of months back, just to be able to measure what Radius can do... but I still need a block, for comparative purposes: it's either that, or send it to BillA, which would be a far better investment.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 03:47 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
again, noooo
making wbs is one thing
and comparative testing quite another

testing won't make your, or anyone's, wb any better
testing will, if done with a modicum of intelligence, show one how their wb compares with another

but if the 'testing' is done without understanding the limitations of the equipment, AND knowledge of the assumptions made and their consequences, then the results are crap

you do not seem to have a grasp of this (yet ?)
If you had read the thread you would know that bigben2k will be sending me a base for a version of WhatBlock? and JFettig might also be sending me a base (if we can work out the details.) These new blocks will be tested on my system and compared to the existing block. 100% comparative testing.

But you didn't read the thread...did you?

You know alot about watercooling, but you have tons to learn about civility. *That* is something that you need to get a grasp of.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 04:05 PM   #99
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Argh - lost my first almost complete post due to my mouse having a "back" button that I always misclick. Anyways - here's the condensed version of the original post.

If you look at waterblocks from a different point of view, you see that copper is actually insulating your cpu from the water. So - you want as little copper as you can get (thin baseplate) between them, with only the bare-minimum required for strength/mounting/etc. and enough surface area to get all the heat that the copper aborbs from the CPU into the water.

I think the block could be improved by adding more surface area on the base, which would also have the side effect of increasing turbulence - though I would predict that the boundary layer in such a thin channel is already very small, and that the turbulence from the 90 degree bend and narrow opening where the water enters the block may already be enough to disturb that layer.

I'd like to see it with some channels etched into the bottom running parallel to the flow. If you can do them deep enough with a knife, perhaps even tiny fins bent-up from the bottom (still parallel) as in a skivved-fin HS.
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Unread 03-31-2003, 04:54 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graystar
Just got some numbers on this. I bought a Radioshack Indoor/Outdoor thermometer. I put the outdoor probe into the reservoir. The readout is sitting next to the case. I also tested the water temperature with a Vicks electronic thermometer (for body temperature) Both read exactly the same.

The ambient temperature is 22.8C.
The water temperature is 31.3C.
The CPU temp is 42-43C (switching back and forth)

The difference seems to be around 11.5C difference. Is there any accounting for radiator and pump in this equation? I am using a 140gph/3' head pump and that crappy 80mm Iceberg1 radiator with 1/4" barb.

Forgot to mention....this is at 100% load, since my computer folds all the time. I have a model 680 2200+. Power ratings are 67.9W max and 61.7W typical.
. . . .
nooo, really Graystar - trust me
you do not understand what you are babbling about

what ever gave YOU the idea you know the CPU's power output ?
and
what ever gave YOU the idea that the presumed CPU power output is the same as the heat input to the wb ?

I will take the luxury of repeating myself: you do not know what you are posting about
and you're getting pissed at people telling you so

this whole CPU power quantification has been discussed at great length
that you are ignoring this issue means you are ignorant of it, or think you know better
- in which case you are foolish also

you may take my word for it,
-> EVERY time you use the word Watt you tell everyone that you do not understand the issue

all you can 'measure' are temps, with whatever accuracy your equipment can achieve
Watts are unknowable to you (indeed, from a CPU, to almost anyone)

you have confused correction with civility ?
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