watercooling lost its magic

[ricecrispi]

I heard the DDC-2 is noticeable louder than DDC-1. I had MCP-655 and it was definitely too loud. WCing a HTPC is a real PITA. Looping it was the main problem and needs improvement.

[nikhsub1]

Joe - You spelled 'QUIET' wrong. Just thought I'd point that out.

There is the whole cooling rule of:


* Good Performance (good cooling)

* Quite <--- Wrong

* Low Cost

* Small Size

Now I could ramble on, but water cooling has lost no magic in my book. My latest build is very quiet and very powerful. I got a 1900XTX not long ago, let me tell you it is LOUD with aircooling. Anyway, a couple of pics of the new build but first specs:

Custom Clear Res (made by me )
2x DDC Ultras with modded inlet
PA 120.3
G5
MP-01 GPU

[Joe]

Wow 2 people proofing it and no one caught that including the person who wrote it hehe. thanks for the catch on that, all fixed.

And you are in the fringe... as I said in the editorial, for the extreme or high end out there H2O is still king, its the bulk of the enthusiast that it has lost it seems.

[pHaestus]

I would never wc my htpc; it's too much of a pita to have downtime on that box for the inevitable problems 6-12 months down the road.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by Joe

Wow 2 people proofing it and no one caught that including the person who wrote it hehe. thanks for the catch on that, all fixed.

And you are in the fringe... as I said in the editorial, for the extreme or high end out there H2O is still king, its the bulk of the enthusiast that it has lost it seems.

Don't worry about it: you also mis-spelled "analasys"

[ricecrispi]

I think the fringe is bigger. You hear sites like anandtech and tomhardware mentioning it like its butter on toast. Most computer forums has a WCing section and sticky on how to watercool. WCing has trickled down so much that people don't go to WCing only sites for information and support.

I think the technical aspect of WCing is matured and some feel there is nothing left to find.
I see evap or chilled liquid/subambient cooling with condensors in a similar place WCing was 5 years ago. You see DIY, build parts, people selling homemade kits, mixing gases, and other things that have some resemblance to WCing.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Joe - You spelled 'QUIET' wrong. Just thought I'd point that out.

There is the whole cooling rule of:


* Good Performance (good cooling)

* Quite <--- Wrong

* Low Cost

* Small Size

Now I could ramble on, but water cooling has lost no magic in my book. My latest build is very quiet and very powerful. I got a 1900XTX not long ago, let me tell you it is LOUD with aircooling. Anyway, a couple of pics of the new build but first specs:

Custom Clear Res (made by me )
2x DDC Ultras with modded inlet
PA 120.3
G5
MP-01 GPU

Nice work, however that thing is ****ing HUGE. Take all that power and drop it in a case like this http://www.directron.com/sn213htbk.html and I will be impressed. I am sick and tired of my huge case and it is just a mid sized.

[ricecrispi]

Fitting Nik's setup into HTPC is like asking Bush to act intelligent. Just ain't going to happen.

I have trouble fitting half that into Divine 5 HTPC. Had to bust out coolsleeves on the tygon, mod the entire front to fit chevette HC and the new MCP350 helped alot.

[Jag]

It's understandable that some of the most prominet users in this forum simply lost interest in this subject. They have reached a "plateau" in their own aspirations as far as WC is concerned.
No more the need to prove something.
That doesn't imply there isn't any room for big improvements.
Some threads tried to debate certains aspects of this alleged necessity of a evolution in the WC market (e.g. BillA:"do we need a "low end" cooling section?"; Joe:"How safe is water cooling these days"; "US VS German systems-advantages/disadvantages"), the focus on the eternal question of reliability, tubing permeation, etc.
What happened is that the die hard users in Procooling still can't accept the manufacturers "invasion" of their little feud or playground.
Instead of voicing coeherently their concerns /suggestions, the topic of debate soon was adulterated and no one could reach a valid conclusion, and so stagnation overcame.Why bother?

So far what is still the best WC example of this industry? - the Apple G5 (with some leaking problems).
Look what happened with the radiator/silence debate here in Procooling.
Something new was developed.
To me one of the worst byproducts of the Watercooling market is the modding scene, where WC products are designed and targeted with no real contribution to a system security/reliability.

Everyone still wants everything at the same time - sort of a hybrid Porsche. Is it feasible?Perhaps, but not with this mentality.

[Madnys]

I would like to see some more info on the water cooled PC, PICs included as Water is 100x better than Air for cooling, stop talking out your arse.

Only PC where I have seen AIR was better than Water was cuz a newbie set it up with crappy componets many kinks and a weak pump with tiny tubing and no fans on the rad.

Even with after market coolers a good well thought out WC setup in a good case built by someone who knows exactly how to get the best out of WC will outpreform AIR by 5-10C easily.

[nikhsub1]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Nice work, however that thing is ****ing HUGE. Take all that power and drop it in a case like this http://www.directron.com/sn213htbk.html and I will be impressed. I am sick and tired of my huge case and it is just a mid sized.

Damn right it is huge but I have no plans to take it to a LAN... I have a gaming notebook for that You all would be surprised how damn quiet the thing is though. I achieved my goal with this build - ultra performance with low noise. I gotta say, a res is new for me, this is the first time I've used one and I love having one. So easy to fill and bleed. I still love watercooling but I will admit that part selections are getting boring...

[DVL73]

Originally Posted by Madnys

I would like to see some more info on the water cooled PC, PICs included as Water is 100x better than Air for cooling, stop talking out your arse.

Related to post from Jag, above ... I don't see particular problems with "visual" modding as you may have really surprising results and more importantly some of us are (still) really appreciating the coexistence of art (may I say fashion) & form or minor edge towards the art by slightly sacrificing the form - especially if done properly. At the end, I do really believe that it's possible to combine the art with the raw and uninspiring form of the PC, especially in WC sector.

Originally Posted by Madnys

Even with after market coolers a good well thought out WC setup in a good case built by someone who knows exactly how to get the best out of WC will outpreform AIR by 5-10C easily.

Man, because of the dodgy airflow in my case (and yes, I didn't want to introduce 4x fans to cure this), I had really "decent" temperature drop in the range of 30*C, especially for my GPU. Also, my radiator is placed externally. Everything is dandy when you are cooling just the CPU. Try to include the hot GPU (like X1900) in the air cooling game and you will see what is happening after few hours of heavy gaming session (especially latest titles, designed really to utilise all those pretty pixel shaders). Fan will "scream" and for some people temps were in the high 80*C range, especially with not-so-good case airflow. Shocking it is. Not to mention the crossfire/SLI set-up ... with dual cards. So, gaming does suffer and there is a need for more speed - especially because the new era of widescreen monitors is approaching. You will not have the problems like "do I need more speed", but what to do with all that ridiculous heat inside of your case.

WC and HTPC integration is interesting subject too. Noise of every single HTPC I tried is simply unbearable for my living room - and my living room is not so noise friendly: wooden floor, wooden blinds, nothing to absorb the noise. Then, you have the increased power consumption of modern PC and we all know who is suffering the most in this respect: PSU. That means more cooling power. Why not integrate the WC into the PSU ? (safely of course). Noise generated by the PSU is probably on the second place, overall.


Anyhow, it's normal that people with great minds about the WC subject have identity crysis in the times like this. Purpose and "mass need" is still undefined, especially on the practical - consumer level. Although, Intel had some "ideas":

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/03...liquid_cooler/

&

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/295


I think that WC will have the comeback. Great one too Then ... magic will be gone for good and we will probably question ourselves on this very forum "why on earth WC had to go global?"

[dsptech]

I just think that we are all getting old.
When I first found this site and starting reading I was amazed with this stuff.
Years later I'm still reading but not much excites me these days.
I don't have the energy or time to tinker as much and though a good idea will pop into my head now and then,
I never seem motivated enough to follow up on it.
That is because I'm getting old.

There's a whole new generation ready to discover water cooling with fresh energy and excitement.
They are the guys who will take it to the next level.
We just have to make sure they are encouraged and not criticized to death when they make their first posts.
I have seen many ideas get nit-picked to hell in this forum and I know that posters spirit and ambition was just crushed.
Their ideas might have sucked or already been done but slamming the whole thing down doesn't encourage them to keep trying.
The old timers need to step back and let the news guys step up without fear of being overly criticized.

Is his site and water cooling dead?
It will be if us old farts keep killing the fun for the new guys.

[DVL73]

^^^

Although, I'm not that young ... I have to agree with you. Apart from everything else, I think that WC didn't hit the wall. It's just in very unique stage atm, on the road to the next level.

If we exclude the need and focus on the enthusiasm , WC is definitely not alone. What can people who pioneered Internet or Linux can tell now ? Look what we have now! and how times are changed and more importantly - technology evolved to really something new that, for example, you are observing the Internet now as the need and essential tool. It's not enthusiastic project anymore nor something that could possibly shiver your spine up and down. Linux too. You can't expect the impossible anymore, BUT they will evolve into the next level or stage, however you may call it.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Damn right it is huge but I have no plans to take it to a LAN... I have a gaming notebook for that You all would be surprised how damn quiet the thing is though. I achieved my goal with this build - ultra performance with low noise. I gotta say, a res is new for me, this is the first time I've used one and I love having one. So easy to fill and bleed. I still love watercooling but I will admit that part selections are getting boring...

It is nice build. Res's are a nice thing to have to quick and easily bleed air and keep the system topped off.

What interests me however is if your notebook is powerful enough for Lans then what is the desktop for? Mass storage? Which brings me to this thread: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10925

I would build a nice little file server like that and tap into it with that notebook.

This is the future of PC's and farther off even smaller. This is what the mass market wants and demands and this is what CPU manufactures are starting to design for.

Full and mid size ATX/BTX will go away to a new mini form factor. With CPU's to have a GPU built into it (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33678) and mobo's with all other things built in small form factor will take over and things will get smaller. This pushes the water cooling to a much smaller scale than today or completely out of the picture.

No Jag this has nothing to do with hobbyist vs manufacture. In fact I have a great respect for a couple manufactures around here. It has everything to do, as said over and over again, with the lack of reason to water cool and many of us moving on to more important and fulfilling things.

I personally see no future for water cooling on a mainstream or hobbyist scale for reasons above. So why keep it as a hobby?

Also I see no reason why ProCooling has to be based on water cooling anyway. Cooling is cooling no matter the medium. Why not do some specialized air cooling stuff?

[ricecrispi]

WCing is very dependent on what happens in the industry.

The workstation/ midtower will be around for powerusers, gamers, graphic artist etc but basic users will be using stuff in SFF, mini atx, laptops, and zero footprint computers that fit onto the LCD or into the keyboard.

I think the industry has been lax since mobo's can be shrunken and chipset, gpu, cpu intergrated into a single chip. Think about the size of old PCI slots and new PCIX slots but i can't find anything for PCI-X except for a NIC? What about hard drive performance? Been the same for the last 5 years.

[Madnys]

Originally Posted by DVL73

Man, because of the dodgy airflow in my case (and yes, I didn't want to introduce 4x fans to cure this), I had really "decent" temperature drop in the range of 30*C, especially for my GPU.

I was refering 5-10C on a well cooled after market Air cooled solution, 30C drop is only in the most extreme cases, and to be honest I drilled a hole through the wall and put my rad in the fridge with the fas still cooling it, temps dropped to 27C load on my X1800XT but ive moved since then and no longer have that over sized over powered pump and can no longer use this solution

Water cooling is no longer for the serious over clocker, they have moved onto Chilled Water ( far beyond just a fridge ) and pelts/thermoelectric and dry ice, you will only find the modest OC'ers and silent/cool junkies toying with water now. I believe there was no magic in the water just in wow factor when you got your P3 to 600MHZ! ( which I still own )

[nikhsub1]

Regardless of how you all feel, water cooling GPU's will still be very usefull for a long time to come, regardless of cpu. If some subzero cool the cpu with a vapo, they still need good cooling on the GPU. The stock card cooling is LOUD. If I ever went phase on my CPU i'd still water cool the gpu(s)

[derraa]

I dont think anyone was really saying that watercooling was useless. there are definatly some cases where it can drastically reduce noise and possibly significantly inprove performance. But excluding a few really hot gpu's, things can be very quietly cooled with air and sufficiently OC'd. I have a 7900GT and it runs nearly silently, slightly audible under load and this is with stock cooling. If you have a really hot gpu, shure water will be quieter, i just feel that in my case, its kinda superfolous. Im still going to WC and pelt cool my cpu, it just doesnt give me the thrill it used to. i still want to see what i can drain out of the system, but its not what it used to be. for me.

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by derraa

I have a 7900GT and it runs nearly silently, slightly audible under load and this is with stock cooling.

Please forgive my doubts, but that makes me suspect you're not an SPCR type.

[derraa]

yes, thats true, but in the room where my computer is, with some background noise, ie a dehumidifier in the next room and a minifridge about 15 feet away, i cant pick out the sound of the pc thats under my desk.

[Joe]

With the Arctic Cooling Silencer on my 7800GT its nearly silent, and removes all the heat to outside the case. ANd OC's like a champ... just dont see the need for it on GPU's for myself, but I can understand others wanting to do it!

Nik, I never said watercooling was without purpose or use, I just said that its most important part of the market was walking away from it.

[WoenK]

Got interested in watercooling about 8 years ago, planned many times to build a system and never did it. I never found the components I would like to have and building them on my own would have costed a fortune.
I did not want to overclock my system, did no want to make it look cool on the inside, just wanted the most quiet possible system at a good speed with best possible cooling.
Well never did it because it is simply stupid to have the whole system quiet and still have either a pump ticking or the sound of HDD.
Best solution would have been sumbmerging the whole thing in oil
Today the main aspect is not the cooling solution anymore, power efficiency has become an aspect the day the GPUs started consuming more power than the rest of the system. One could build an absolutly perfect cooling by simply using an old fridge or using a completely passive heat exchaning system, but who does really want to pay about 2k just for power consumption every year ?

[Marci]

Half the problem is, as the scene has expanded and commercialized, so has the number of websites covering that scene. As said earlier, every forum has a wc-ing section.

Back when I got into watercooling (Swiftech MCW462 had JUST come out) you had to HUNT for info. VERY few websites covered anything about it, and that's what inspired us to take the watercooling route for over-clock.com

These days, folks think watercooling, and just head to the nearest section on their local fave website and go off whatever is said in there. As there is info to hand (allbeit a lot of b/s), they look no further. More and more end up satisfied with the commercial offerings. Thermaltake being one of the biggest culprits cashing in on this market. Once the majority of this crowd have water in their rig, they don't see the need to upgrade or can't afford to. If they do, they go back to manufacturer of what they bought in the first place. A minority move to DIY...

Anyone with an ounce of gumption could get the RIGHT gear first time round... it's posted around places often enough... but the minority actually do.

Market saturation hasn't occured YET, but for the kind of watercooling to which we refer (the extreme enthusiast / DIY end), it more or less has.

Over-Clock.com is churning out 40% of what it was a year ago. We used to be shipping 50+ custom kits out a day. Now we're lucky if we move 1 full kit a day.

The same happened with the modding scene. 4 years ago we were sending out cathodes n' laser cut grills and window kits left right n' center. Then cheapy cases came out with it all predone and voila - the customer base vanished. We still have BOXES of this stuff upstairs, and it's still on our site, but demand for it simply isn't there anymore.

Personally - I also run an aircooled rig. I have responsibilities now which result in my only use for PCs at home being to check e-mails, listen to a bit of music and watch the occasional movie. That's it. Nothing else. I don't have the spare cash to put into it, that goes on my son and bills. I don't have the time to sit for hours on end playing games... I have more important things to do in my life.

Then you have the XBox... and MMORPG. Half the high-end customers are now immersed in mmorpg, paying monthly gaming subscriptions for up to 5 games... soaking up all spare income. Then there's the crowd who got sick of upgrading graphics cards etc to get blah-de-blah games to work - they went and bought an xbox. Then they modded that xbox to cover net browsing, and media playback. All of a sudden, the PC itself is no longer needed.

Businesses / individuals with money to earn still have a need, but for the home-user with a 9 to 5 job that pays the wage, and an xbox in the corner, and dvd recorder with integrated HDD and a Sky+ box no longer have any use for the PC.

I almost got into the whole HTPC market... then I inherited a TiVo. Thus, couldn't be arsed to prat about with a HTPC. My DVD Recorder networks up to my LAN so retrieves all my movies and mp3's from a cheap NAS Box. No need for any PC to be switched on.

The PC Market is on a downwards spiral when it comes to their use as a necessary tool in the home. If PCs themselves are becoming relatively unneeded, so therefore are all accessories etc for them...

[Joe]

Many many good points and observations!