"Mass-market budget water-cooling" - Is it driving users away from water-cooling?

[BalefireX]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

Ah, come on unregistered! You're such an outspoken guy around here, and then won't tell us where the actual product is even made? I walk away from this interaction knowing one thing for sure....those things aren't made here in the States, or else you would've trumpeted that I'm sure. I know one thing about the Antarctica...it wasn't made in Asia next door to a Nike shoe factory.

Seriously now, brazing like that isnt done by sweatshop workers. My bet is that 90% or more of your computers components were designed or built in Asia, and I doubt you'd throw out your processor because it was fabbed in Malaysia.
Your "supporting America" thing is silly when you decide to buy Danish instead - at least a purchase from Swiftech (or any other American company) is putting money into the US economy, no matter where the product was made. All you can be sure of when buying Danish is that you are not supporting America.

BTW: http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/imag...onnect-ins.gif

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by unregistered

BTW, Swiftech ...scammed by several 'customers'

Well that sucks. Not wanting to hijack this thread I'll skip the diatribe, but...

Along the "kit" vein, I'm surprised that one of the kit suppliers hasn't made an arrangement with one of the Chinese case manufacturers to build in a lower-front radiator opening (and maybe a built-in shroud). Seems like that this plus using a heater core for the radiator should drive the price down a bit - and using a heater core on inlet air should be able to keep the coolant temps down to the point where even a "small" pump and less-than-top-line block should be able to produce better than aircooled temps at a quieter-than-aircooled noise level.

Of course, I have no idea of the margins on PC cases - and the volumes required to get a manafacturer's attention. If it's anything like the ones on automotive heater cores I am pretty seriously off-base here...

[jaydee]

Of course low performance WC kits will have a negative effect on WC'ing. We all should know how things spread around like wild fire. One guy buys a kit and get higher temps than his previous air cooling and throws the kit away and the rest of his life he will be telling people that water cooling is a joke gimmick.

A little off topic I built all my families computers and wouldn't think of putting water cooling in any of them. Mainly because there is no reason to. Even with today's high heat CPU's air cooling is plenty good for an overclocked or even mildly overclocked computer.

Another thing slowing down water cooling is the lack of faster new CPU's. CPU's seem to be leveling off on speed in the last several months. Overclocking is not so good from these new chips. And now the CPU manufactures are re-inventing their strategy to make CPU's use less power and still perform well, and they are. Look at the mobile AMB CPU's. They are pretty bad ass for the power they use and some desktop manufactures are using them. Look at VIA. They got a 1gig CPU that runs on, IIRC, 3 watts.

I see chip makers making lower power using CPU's instead of making chips require water cooling. When "water cooling required" is printed on AMD and Intels packaging then it will be main stream. I will continue to say that day will never come. What has been going on in the chip industry lately backs it up somewhat so far.

[pHaestus]

What about graphics cards though? Some inroads there with commercial water cooling. A more suitable problem for water anyway (can't use big hs/fan without losing PCI slots and it isnt an area really covered well by ATX spec for cooling).

[BillA]

but the product lifecycle is ? 6mos ?
and how many of the top-end cards are sold ?

and the lead time for the WCing mfgr ? ah HA ! I know the answer to this one = ZERO
well, disclosure after the fact ? the same, ZERO

no mfgr can cope with such, recall MBM ?

[Jag]

Answering bobkoure, Lian-Li launched a case with some refinements towards Watercooling.

Model 6277B

[BillA]

nice case there

[Cathar]

Hmmm, my idea of a "water-cooling oriented" case would have a ~18cm high cavity at the bottom of the case with a 8 x 12cm fan mounts around it.

It would have a fan mount at the front and back, and 3 down each side, with the side ones being spaced appropriately to take either the BIX2's or the ThermoChill 120.2/.3 radiators, so people could add as many radiators as they wanted. There'd be a series of screw-attachable cover-plates to seal up any unused fan mounts. The cavity would be seal away from the main case body, except for two 3/4" diameter holes (with rubber grommets protecting the sharp edges) leading into the case for tubing, and a series of molex connectors for fan/pump powering.

That would allow for a mid-tower sized case (effectively a mini-tower on top of the WC enclosure section). The case would be 9" (23cm) wide to allow for tubing to bend easily around video cards and the like.

[Cathar]

I think that this is perhaps an example of what I was talking about with this thread:

http://www.pctoyland.com/prod_642.htm

[BalefireX]

Originally Posted by Cathar

I think that this is perhaps an example of what I was talking about with this thread:

http://www.pctoyland.com/prod_642.htm

If that were quiet, it might make a nice GPU/NB system, just to keep restriction and heat load out of the CPU loop.

[Cathar]

Well I guess that this is the kit that BillA was talking about. US$100 or so - reviewed here:

http://www.overclockers.com/articles1062/

Seems impressive enough in relation to the other kits assembled there, but...just thinking on JoeC's CPU simulator. Going by the noise of the fan and the radiator, we're probably looking at around 0.07C/W or so for the radiator setup on the CoolWave Storm III, which places the CPU block performance at ~0.20C/W or so? :shrug:

I was just thinking about the kit results and thinking about JoeC's tests. Assuming we threw a highish-end kit on there, consisting of a largish dual-fan radiator, a pair of 30dBA fans offering a C/W of around the 0.035 mark, a good pump, and say one of the higher-performing blocks run at 1.5gpm (based on JoeC's own waterblock results on his simulator), would we not be looking at such a kit's performance down around the 0.15 mark (after factoring in pump heat) for JoeC's testbed? With a true "enthusiast" kit, we could probably be getting down to the 0.13C/W mark for JoeC's testbed. With specialised blocks, maybe even down to 0.11C/W.

I mean that we can see a direct correlation between the Asetek crescent block (~0.205 C/W), and the performance of the kit (~0.30C/W) with a restrictive so-so radiator that would also be having issues dealing with pump heat, and likely not pumping more than 1.0gpm through the setup.

If that's true (rough ballpark sense), doesn't that then cast a whole different complexion on the relative performance of the CoolWave, and indeed any of the other kits on that page?

I really want to see a true "enthusiasts" kit assembled and ranked on JoeC's simulator, just so we can get a clear picture of the relative scale of the results. I personally believe that it would not be wholly out of the question to assemble a kit by someone who knew what they were doing, to achieve at least a 0.12C/W on his testbed. Only by doing that will we really be clearing the air with respect to just what is being offered by these kits in relation to an enthusiast DIY setup, and perhaps then explore the gulf between kits that disillusion people in comparison to air-cooling, and a serious enthusiast setup.

[AngryAlpaca]

*Shudder* I have a rule: if then entire unit fits in a drive bay, it's not good. However, a 120mm radiator can fit in there and I'm sort of wondering about that...

People complained about the Swiftech being ugly, I wonder what they'll think of this?

Which waterblock would you use for this? It'd be hard to find a waterblock that will do good enough for a 0.13C/W on his setup. 0.14C/W possibly, just with a WW and a dual radiator...

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Which waterblock would you use for this? It'd be hard to find a waterblock that will do good enough for a 0.13C/W on his setup. 0.14C/W possibly, just with a WW and a dual radiator...

Well I was just more interested in a "high water" mark (no pun intended) around which to guage kits relative to.

Nothing too extravagant, but definitely "high end enthusiast"

ThermoChill 120.3 with 3 x 33dBA fans on board => ~0.025C/W
Laing D4 pump (16W of heat added to the water)
1/2" tubing
White Water (take your pick - I'll focus on blocks I'm familiar with)

~2.25GPM estimated flow rate with D4 => estimate 0.109 C/W on his testbed at that flow rate (bit of extrapolation)

Total C/W => 0.140 (after factoring in pump heat) with the White Water

Switch to a Cascade, should be an easy sub 0.135

To a Cascade SS and should get to just below 0.130

I feel that with a little more focus (boost the radiators even more, better blocks ) that 0.11 would be a viable target to shoot at.

I'm just postulating here, but even if we step back to a (supposedly) easily achievable 0.14C/W, we're still talking all of these kits offering well less than 2/3's the cooling performance of an ethusiast setup, and most sitting at around half the performance.

[AngryAlpaca]

Nice. Very nice. I hadn't thought about the higher flow. Haha. This testing would be extremely helpful for pushing forth custom setups, gives me some credibility. I don't think, for this purpose, that we should use a D4 or a 120.3, as they aren't really favourites. Double heater core and a Mag 3 (obviously we'd fix this before sending)? Using really high end, expensive parts won't help in the least as people'd see the massive price tag and say, "Screw it, I'm going to go with an Aquagate and save me $150"

[firtol88]

Just give him a Swiftech 8600 kit and a D-Tek Pro Core, should perform well and be fairly easy to fit not to mention it can be had for around $200.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...108-031&depa=0 just order the 478 spring clips from Swiftech.

http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp...PROD&ProdID=91 make a shroud and add a 120mm fan of your choice.

If you want to sell people on high end water cooling by showing them an upper mid range setup that kit would probably do a good job of it.

[BillA]

AA
you simply cannot propose a pump that will/may leak
(warranty of merchantibility, known problem, all liability to the VENDOR too)

that is the DIY thinking that makes DIY systems complilations of cheap crap
keep such in your case, and don't talk about it as being representative of anything other than cheap

[AngryAlpaca]

In this case it's supposed to be cheap and a representative of the DIY method. That's the whole point. DIY'ers are generally willing to accept the small task. We aren't actually talking about marketing it, are we? If that were the case, the performance/price would not be worth the leak and the space consumed.

[BillA]

cheap is fine, but any reliability issues DO turn off new users
- note thread topic

[AngryAlpaca]

But is that the main issue? I posted a couple threads at EOCF on "Why aren't you watercooling?" and the number one issue is price. #2 (for Intel, at least) is that "my temperatures are good" (I didn't try disputing it as that would've gone nowhere) #3 is difficulty in setting up and leaks doesn't come until after that.

I'd imagine that Swiftech users have a slightly different outlook than those people over there so leaks is probably a bigger issue for you than a DIY.

[BillA]

we prefer not to offer leaks with our products
lentels are bad enough

[AngryAlpaca]

I know! I'm not worried about Swiftech! We're discussing DIY at this point!

lentels? Also, how hard would it be to make a little reservoir that just encompasses the whole unit?

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

But is that the main issue? I posted a couple threads at EOCF on "Why aren't you watercooling?" and the number one issue is price. #2 (for Intel, at least) is that "my temperatures are good" (I didn't try disputing it as that would've gone nowhere) #3 is difficulty in setting up and leaks doesn't come until after that.

I'd imagine that Swiftech users have a slightly different outlook than those people over there so leaks is probably a bigger issue for you than a DIY.

FME most people are scared of water with electricity i.e. leaks.

Reliability and products like Fluid XP (more like cheap versions of this or this designed for cooling) are going to be the keys to WC adoption. Remove the fear and they will come.

[pHaestus]

The only thing that, imo, will push masses of people to water is a combination of two market forces:

1) CPUs that run so hot that they cannot be cooled without noisy PCs
2) Applications that require the above CPUs

As of now, there's no reason to deal with loud ass PCs because you can get all the performance needed for typical users in a low noise version. Intel is moving things in a favorable direction with Prescott (100+W UNF) but A64s run too damn cool to push water as the "only sane solution" for quiet PCs. And where's the app to convince everyone's non-tech friends and family to upgrade? Pirating DVDs is about the only thing that leaps to mind, but it's currently too convoluted for mom and pop.

[Tempus]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

But is that the main issue? I posted a couple threads at EOCF on "Why aren't you watercooling?" and the number one issue is price. #2 (for Intel, at least) is that "my temperatures are good" (I didn't try disputing it as that would've gone nowhere) #3 is difficulty in setting up and leaks doesn't come until after that.

I'd imagine that Swiftech users have a slightly different outlook than those people over there so leaks is probably a bigger issue for you than a DIY.

Its hard to argue about the motives of a "majority" of people - I'm sure there are many different mindsets. While I agree that price is always an issue, my personal experience leads me to believe that reliability / leaks are the #1 turn off for watercooling.

I have many high end enthusiast friends that are nearly ready to take the next step and WC. They want to but it always comes back to the leaks / potential problems.

From an "average consumer" standpoint, they don't care whats in the computer. They go an buy a dell or a gateway or what have you (even an apple.) Price is only thought of in general terms - ie. this is a $2,000 computer. Most of them can't talk intelligently about bus bandwidth or video card performance. The "mass market" isn't sure what AA is, doesn't know how it impacts things, and doesn't really give a damn as long as the computer works.

The swing for mass market consumers, IMHO, is going to be a a worry-free LOW NOISE cooling system. They will pay extra to get the fan noise out if they never have to clean it or worry about checking the water level. Most of them won't care much beyond that.

[AngryAlpaca]

89W is nothing to ignore, pHaestus, but the high end processors are a little far out of most people's reach right now.

Tempus: These people aren't buying performance heatsinks. We can hardly expect them to go from stock to watercooling just like that. They've got no incentive except noise, as you point out, but that's easily solveable with things like XP 120's. The WC market can only really pick up performance users right now and things like OEM's won't come right away (if ever) so going for those who don't know anything about VC performance or bus bandwidth will probably be a lost cause. Servers will be switching to them rapidly soon, I think, and they'll definitely want reliability above price (hence choosing WC) but that's a whole different story. I'll bet that they would research far beyond the crappy kits that this thread seems to be about...