SATA on 4200/4400/4500

[Phoenix32]

With both R&D Engineering Technician and Military backgrounds, I have an extreme tendancy towards "Attention To Details" to a fault. For those with tendancies in that direction, this Screenshot will be "interesting". For those who tend to skim things, you might as well not even bother looking.

I wonder how many PM's I am going to get.

[bitor]

Very interesting...

[Phoenix32]

WOW!

Only 1 comment, and zero PMs or emails. I am very disappointed. Not at the lack of PM's or emails, but at the lack of people seeing what it was.


Feel free to explain it to them if you want Bitor. Or not. No matter to me if people don't care about it.

[rpmurray]

I came. I saw. I didn't see anything of import. I left.

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by rpmurray

I came. I saw. I didn't see anything of import. I left.

Fair enough. I must just be out of touch. I was under the impression that being able to use SATA drives in a 4200 (or 4400/4500/15000) was of import. I was mistaken. Sorry...

[bitor]

"Notice" in image, drives 1&4 "*B" 2&3"**D"


Verbatum From storagereview.com



CORRECTIONS AND ADDITIONS (still no complete deciphering):

WD has changed its model number system recently (from december 2005, very probably because of they are short of available letters!). The first new system models were the new Raptors (150 and 74 GB). The new official formula (as described in WD's Tech FAQ today) is:

Sample: WD1500ADFD-00NLR0
Formula: AAbbbbCDEF-ggHIJk

AA = WesternDigital

bbbb = Capacity in 100MB units (GBx10)

C = Form Factor :

A 3.5-inch
B 2.5-inch
C 1.0-inch

D = Business Unit / Drive Family :

A Desktop / WD Caviar
B Desktop / WD Protege
C Enterprise / WD Raptor
D Mobile / WD Scorpio
...and it's just mismatching...in reality there's:
D Raptor
H Raptor X (Clear Cover)

E = RPM / Buffer Size :

A 5400
B 7200
C 10000
D 4500
E 5400 (Single Platter)
F 10K/2MB Cache
G 10K/8MB Cache
H 10K/4MB Cache
J 7200/8MB Cache
K 7200/16MB Cache (Desktop)
L 7200 (Quiet Drive)
M 5400 (Fluid Dynamic Bearing Motor)
N 5400 Protégé (Fluid Dynamic Bearing Motor)
P 7200 8MB Cache(Quiet Drive)
R 10K/8MB Cache
S 7200/8MB Cache(Server/Enterprise)
T 7200/8MB Cache (Server/Enterprise Quiet Drive)
U 5400/2MB Cache (Mobile)
V 5400/2MB Cache (Mobile)
W 3600 (Mobile)
X 4200 (Mobile)
Y 7200/16MB Cache (Server/Enterprise)
Z 7200/2MB Cache (End Of Life)
...and again another mismatching...in reality there's:
F 10K/16MB Cache

"Notice" F = Interface Connector(Used for standard Retail Drive Kits only) :

A ATA/66 with 40 pin IDE connector
*B ATA/100 with 40 pin IDE connector
C FireWire 1394a
**D Serial ATA 1(150 MB/s) with 22-pin Serial ATA connector
E ATA/133 with 40-pin EIDE connector
F Fibre Channel/40-pin
G Ultra2/68-pin
H Ultra2/80-pin
J 160m/68-pin
K 160m/80-pin
L Ultra3/68-pin
M Ultra3/80-pin
N Ultra SE/50-pin
P CF+II with 50-pin connector
R RE2/RAID Edition 2
S Serial ATA II (300MB/s) with 22-pin Serial ATA connector
W Home Entertainment A/V
X-Z Reserved for future Home Entertainment A/V

""Now the unofficial part follows...
I have digged up the following:

gg = OEM vendor code :

00 general consumer
01 general enterprise
22 promotional sample (?)
23 IBM
53 Gateway
60 Compaq
71 HP
75 Dell
11 Dell/Gateway (?)
07/08/14/32/40/41/50/55/56/57/58/88/98 unknown yet

H = General construction (platters, motor, etc) :

C 40GB platters / BallBearings
D 66GB platters / BallBearings
E 83GB platters / BallBearings
F 83GB platters / FDB
G 83GB platters / FDB / SilentSeek (?)
H ?
J ?
L ?
M 80GB new platters / SATA2 / no NCQ
N 80..107GB new platters / SATA2 / with NCQ (?)
K 107GB new platters
P 107GB new platters / SATA2 or RE2 (?) / with NCQ (?)
R ?
...these are mostly speculations so far

I = ???

J = Something related to interface/firmware(?) :

A ATA(Caviar over 100GB) / ATAandSATA(Caviar below 100GB)
B SATA(Caviar over 100GB)
C ATAandSATA(Caviar, newer generations/updates)
A/C/R Generation(Raptor SATA)
T Laptop Drive
...again, speculations

k = Firmware version or generation (?) :

0/1/2/3/4 of which larger is newer (if the preceeding letter is the same)

[rpmurray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Fair enough. I must just be out of touch. I was under the impression that being able to use SATA drives in a 4200 (or 4400/4500/15000) was of import. I was mistaken. Sorry...

Maybe a SATA/PATA converter on the two drives? Sorry, I moved on from anything smaller than 500GB years ago.

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by rpmurray

Maybe a SATA/PATA converter on the two drives?

If it was as simple as dropping a SATA/PATA adapter in there, don't you think people would have already been doing it right and left?

Originally Posted by rpmurray

Sorry, I moved on from anything smaller than 500GB years ago.

LOL, so did I. But I don't use expensive drives in a "test" unit. The idea here was not the size of the drives, but rather proof of concept. I thought you would get that much.


But, I digress. I have already admitted I was wrong. I was under the "false impression" that being able to use the larger, faster, more efficient, and less expensive SATA drives was the holy grail for the Snap 4400, 4200, 4500, 15000 series Snap Servers. I know I have been wanting to put 1TB, 1.5TB, and 2TB drives in my units.

I was wrong, and it is clear that other than for my own uses, my time and money spent developing this was a waste. Oh well, we all make mistakes, including me. No biggie, I move on. Sorry I wasted your time along with mine.

[rpmurray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Oh well, we all make mistakes, including me. No biggie, I move on. Sorry I wasted your time along with mine.

Live and learn.

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by rpmurray

Live and learn.

Yup, I agree, that is why I am dumping the project. I was putting together a drop in solution for people to be able to use those larger, faster, cooler, and cheaper SATA drives in their 4400/4200/4500/15000 Snap Servers.

You being a guy I have never heard talk about anything beyond the very old and very limited 4100 Snap Servers, it makes sense you don't care. However, the concern all around does seem underwhelming.

On that note, the project is now dead on my end.

[bitor]

The dumping of the project is to bad. I'm sure this would have been a good money maker to all ppl who have these units and then some. I really don't think ppl really understand what they are seeing and how it relates to the death of the PATA drives plus the added larger sata drive that could be used with these units.
If we were voting I would vote to not dump this project, but what do I know?
I'm already trying to figure out how to modify my 14000 unit to use the newer SATA drives in such a tight sled.

[Phoenix32]

Bitor,

I understand your feelings, but with 300 plus reads on this message thread and no real concern other than you, it is pretty much just a losing proposition for me on this end. I already have somewhere near 150 hours and my money invested in this project. Why do more for something people don't want/need? I already have advanced this to a level of my needs. I see no reason to invest more of my time and money.

Maybe later, I will post some of the information learned in the project. For now, I will say, you are going to have to kiss a lot of frogs (buy crap that won't work) and nothing on the market will drop in without a lot of work.

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by bitor

If we were voting I would vote to not dump this project, but what do I know?

Bitor, do you see my point now?

Another 100 views ticked off without any interest.

I think if we were voting, you would be very alone in that vote... Which is where the problem is...

[bitor]

Phoenix32,

Unfortunately, I have to yield to nobody taking interest besides a few who understand the ramifications of this matter in general. I do understand why you would elect not to go forward with this project. This is very disappointing. But I do hope you maybe decide to continue to work on it anyway. Hardware is your forte.

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Bitor, do you see my point now?

Another 100 views ticked off without any interest.

I think if we were voting, you would be very alone in that vote... Which is where the problem is...

[Max8]

Hi Phoenix,

I'm interested! This is massive news!

So it does work and I would love to try it & Now that you are dumping the project can you share with us how you did it?

[Phoenix32]

Hi Mate,

Originally Posted by Max8

I'm interested! This is massive news!

Well, that makes a whole 3 of us. I thought it was massive also, but...

Originally Posted by Max8

So it does work

Yes, it does work with the right components...

Originally Posted by Max8

Now that you are dumping the project can you share with us how you did it?

There is no way to say this gently, so I will just say it. No...

I put a ton of time into this, and with my low income, plenty of money. Now this is where the "poor baby", "boo hoo", and so forth kind of message replies will come in. After thinking about all I have done for this community, problems I have solved, time and money spent, and all for -Free-, I am feeling a bit unappreciated after comments made to me lately and then this. Doesn't exactly put me in a sharing kind of mood. Sorry...

[Max8]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Hi Mate,

Well, that makes a whole 3 of us. I thought it was massive also, but...

Yes, it does work with the right components...

There is no way to say this gently, so I will just say it. No...

I put a ton of time into this, and with my low income, plenty of money. Now this is where the "poor baby", "boo hoo", and so forth kind of message replies will come in. After thinking about all I have done for this community, problems I have solved, time and money spent, and all for -Free-, I am feeling a bit unappreciated after comments made to me lately and then this. Doesn't exactly put me in a sharing kind of mood. Sorry...

I completely understand and it leads me to ask for others;

• How will you be offering this service, information?
• How much will you be charging for this service, information?

I had to say for others because at the moment I cannot even afford new drives for my 110 or 210 let alone my 4x00's... For some reason my Wife and I decided we needed another little Max8 on the planet to accompany the other 3x Max8's we already have, so my Computer hardware fetish has to be put on hold for now.

(unless some wealthy benefactor wants to sponsor 4x little Australian Max8's, 10Yrs, 5 Yrs, 4Yrs and -0.33.333yrs? anyone?)

I kind of remember that at one stage I felt it was a good idea but now we are 12 weeks away from the 4th edition... it appears like it may have been better to tie a knot in it...

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by Max8

• How will you be offering this service, information?
• How much will you be charging for this service, information?

Well, since I have dropped the project, I won't be offering this service.

The charge would have been enough to pay for the items and a small profit to pay for the investment of the project. Undetermined at this point since I will not now be making the 5 hour round trip drive that would have taken me to the small manufacturing service to have the adapters completed (thus an unknown exact cost at this point). I am not going to give estimates here.

Originally Posted by Max8

For some reason my Wife and I decided we needed another little Max8 on the planet to accompany the other 3x Max8's we already have

Congrats! I hope all goes well for you, the wife, and all the little Max8's.


For you, I will do this. -IF- you can generate enough interest in the subject here to make it worth the time, I will write up an article on the why's and what for's of the topic.

[bitor]

Max8, looks like you maybe the luck one to receive this new item from Phoenix32's project. If Phoenix32 decides, maybe set up a web site AND/OR have a trial run on ebay to see how these items sell.

bitor

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by bitor

Max8, looks like you maybe the luck one to receive this new item from Phoenix32's project. If Phoenix32 decides, maybe set up a web site AND/OR have a trial run on ebay to see how these items sell.

bitor

Bitor,

Me thinks you misunderstood...

#1- This applies to you, or anyone else, as much as Max8.

#2- This is not about marketing. It is about solving a growing problem. I am an engineering tech (retired), not a salesman or marketeer. This is not about making money, but about fixing a problem.

#3- My reply to Max8 was, I guess, not clear (I do that sometimes it seems). It was about getting people interested enough here, to at least prompt me to try to grow the interest even further with explainations of the situation and the solutions. If you can do that, then I will accept the ball and run it further. But I am not wasting my time on something people have no interest in. That is just wasteful. I put the ball in your court, Max8's court, and anyone else who might be interested court, to generate at least enough interest here to make it worth that time.

In other words, Tag! You're it!


P.S. As for your 14000 (or a 12000), I do not know what the drive tray situation is like. If they are like the 4400 and 4200/4500 family, then this should work there also. You would have to tell me (show me) what the trays are like.

[huispan]

Good afternoon all,

I have been following this thread for a while and have been one of those that just kept quiet and I believe it is time to speak up.

I think this is very good news indeed and I'm sure there are more of us that will be interested in this. I believe it is very important to be able to get SATA drives running on these units, which would mean that these units can be continue to be used for another 2/5/10 years, who knows for how much longer!

Please keep me in the loop and I shall try to contribute in any which way or form.

Cheers all!

[bitor]

Ok, I'll send you some photos with some measurements to see if this will work in my case.

bitor

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Bitor,

Me thinks you misunderstood...

#1- This applies to you, or anyone else, as much as Max8.

#2- This is not about marketing. It is about solving a growing problem. I am an engineering tech (retired), not a salesman or marketeer. This is not about making money, but about fixing a problem.

#3- My reply to Max8 was, I guess, not clear (I do that sometimes it seems). It was about getting people interested enough here, to at least prompt me to try to grow the interest even further with explainations of the situation and the solutions. If you can do that, then I will accept the ball and run it further. But I am not wasting my time on something people have no interest in. That is just wasteful. I put the ball in your court, Max8's court, and anyone else who might be interested court, to generate at least enough interest here to make it worth that time.

In other words, Tag! You're it!


P.S. As for your 14000 (or a 12000), I do not know what the drive tray situation is like. If they are like the 4400 and 4200/4500 family, then this should work there also. You would have to tell me (show me) what the trays are like.

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by bitor

Ok, I'll send you some photos with some measurements to see if this will work in my case.

bitor

Based on the photos you provided and follow-up information, here is what I can tell you.

- The trays of the 14000 are completely different than the 4400, or the 4200/4500 family trays.

- All hope is not lost. Your modification may even be easier/cheaper.

- Unless there is some limit in the BIOS/HBA/Interface of the 14000, which I don't believe there is, I see no reason why at this point you could not convert to SATA.


The real trick/secret here is using the right adapter to start with. This is one of those, "you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince" type deals. Fortunately for you, I have done that part for you. And no, I don't kiss frogs (or lick toads), it was a figure of speech!

In your case, can you locate/make a short PATA cable to go from a male adapter to your female tray connector? Same for the molex power connector (that one is super easy)? If yes, I think you are in. If no, then I may have another idea, but not one I want to reccomend at this point (may not work).

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by huispan

I think this is very good news indeed and I'm sure there are more of us that will be interested in this. I believe it is very important to be able to get SATA drives running on these units, which would mean that these units can be continue to be used for another 2/5/10 years, who knows for how much longer!

Please keep me in the loop and I shall try to contribute in any which way or form.

That's 3 of you now.

(4 if you count David who thinks telling me on the phone is enough, LOL)

[bitor]

Yes, I can make a short PATA cable and modify a molex power connector too. Actually, I've already made/modified both in order to use a variety of different hard drive so I could accommodate the hard drive's PCB off set alignment to my sled connector.