Phase Change - Page 7

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-23-2002, 01:25 PM

What freon are you using.. this is from a dehumidifer right?

If you are getting liquid in the compressor.. The return (suction line) will be frosted up to or real close to the compressor.. If so then you have to much freon..

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-24-2002, 12:48 AM

I found some great info here on vac pumping.. check it out

http://www.refparts.com/Catalog/Tool...cuum_pumps.asp

I had NO clue you had to vacuum THAT long to get a proper dehydration of a system.. wowzor..

That is why I like to use my MAPP gas torch as well.. just to light heat the lines up.. it really whips the lamma's ass then.. cuz you have the water basically boiling off from your torches heat alone.. w00t

SonixOS · 08-24-2002, 07:11 PM

Quote:

What freon are you using.. this is from a dehumidifer right?
If you are getting liquid in the compressor.. The return (suction line) will be frosted up to or real close to the compressor.. If so then you have to much freon..

I am using R22. This is from a dehumidifier. And yes, I am getting frost all over the tube that goes to the evaporator. The one from the condensor to the compressor is hot as it is expected to be. Got any idea how i can reduce the amount of freon? And would that be why the compressor is soo loud?

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-24-2002, 08:31 PM

There is the right amount of freon charge in the system.. so don't worry about it... as long as the actual tube into the compressor isn't frosted over.. or very cold.. no problem

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-25-2002, 10:58 PM

i got a good feeling i blew my compressor.. heh.. i hope that refrigerator that was in the garbage down the street in my neighborhood is still out.. hehe

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-26-2002, 01:55 PM

Argh.. the ****ing thing is dead.. ya well.. I got plans to pick up that frige down the street.. it's still out.. woohoo!

When filling system with liquid propane.. put in only a LITTLE BIT.. liquid propane = LOTS of gas propane

lol.. I had that F'in thing sludging like a mother.. funniest thing was the damn thing was actually working good for me.. except.. I killed it.. lol.. shit happens..

I'd like to find an extra water block for cheap/free.. and make an on-die system..

PixelCloud · 08-26-2002, 02:22 PM

i found like 4 big huge refrigerators but i didn't bother with them

phiber · 08-26-2002, 08:10 PM

i found a fridge and im having my uncle take out the compressor rite now

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-27-2002, 01:57 AM

rofl.. having your uncle do it.. do u know the first thing about phase change?

I just picked up a frige tonite.. ganked the compressor out.. it's a really nice compressor.. quite powerful.. to bad it takes quite a bit to much power for me.. 115v at 5.5amp.. I know some of that will be the freezer fan.. and the light.. etc.. but the compressor will still take over 300w.. my goal is to take less power then my peltier did.. so I got an extra compressor here now.. it's a beaut.

phiber · 08-27-2002, 11:21 AM

well i exactly dont have the tools needed to take it out...and another thing why my uncle is taking it out is cuz.....ITS IN FRONT OF HIS HOUSE! woah hows that a concept. . .

and ive been talking to ssjwizard and im learning not everybody knows as much as phase change as you do

SonixOS · 08-27-2002, 12:16 PM

no offense punisher but u act like u know it all and u talk here as if u own this place. You might be doing all this reading and might know yourself around but u dont know everything. I personally believe its not right for you to laugh at someone who wouldnt take the compressor off himself while u went out and blew up ur compressor. U blew it because u had too much f ucking liquid returning to the compressor. It happens when u have no load on the compressor, then all the liquid comes back to the compressor unless u have this 500 dollar collector thing i forgot whats it called. I would appreciate it before the next time u try to belittle someone.

|PuNiSh3R| · 08-27-2002, 12:31 PM

Accumulator.. that is the "500 dollar" thing..

I wasn't making fun of him.. Actually TAKING the compressor out is half the fun and half the learning expirence.. I could give a F uck less that I killed the compressor.. I didn't pay jack shit for it.. And I got a 2 more today.. so wtf is your point? I paid nothing for both of them..

Btw, that "500 dollar" thing is around $40.00...

Joe · 08-27-2002, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
rofl.. having your uncle do it.. do u know the first thing about phase change?

You know something, I am done with you on this forum... you are an annoyance and provide little if any accurate info. And then you go and start laughing at people cause they dont want to deal with a HVAC system AFTER YOU BLEW YOURS UP.

Get a life, and Get out of here.

*banned*

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 01:18 PM

Thanks Joe.

My comment would have been that Punisher's info, although good, is irreproducible: you wouldn't hardly be able to do what he did, in the steps that he did it.

The use of Propane is dangerous, and although he posted a warning, he didn't quite get into the dangers: a small propane leak could be ignited by a heat source in another room.

Using a torch to heat test a waterblock is a little out there, but I've never played that much with phase change units.

I hope that everyone else here will still contribute to this thread, because it is a very good one: phase change info is really hard to come by.

Joe · 08-27-2002, 01:48 PM

While never using an Phase change compressor setup in a computer, I have worked on them in cars and appliances. and my comment on the whole deal is:

propane is stupid, and dangerous. Yes you can cool down low, but one leak, one spark, one big boom in a confined space.

Also 99.9% of all compressors out there are NOT suitable for propane. Will they work? yep. Will they last? Nope. Propane and Butane reacts with the lubircant/oil in an A/C system and will eat away at O rings in the systems.

There are pictures on the web of compressors that blew the stator out of the compressor just from using propane and having a seal leak.

Also testing with a torch is a VERY FREAKING stupid thing to do. Phase Change setups are made to dissapate X watts of heat, NOT constant FLAME! I would very much discount anything Punisher said, and consider it the dangerous and reckless way of burning money and time.

SonixOS · 08-27-2002, 02:04 PM

Thanks alot joe. I wanted to say what u did but I didnt feel I should be the person he should recieve it from after that other thread that went dead after his BS.

Well I went to an A/C expert yesterday and he was amazed at my setup. The first thing he told me is that I am running my dehumidifier WAAAY below how the setup is intended to run. The Refrigerant temperature was like 15F while the ambient temperature was like 87F. We were able to tell that there was an enormous amount of liquid coming back from the evaporator that causes the compressor's tube to get all frosted and VERY VERY COLD. So what he suggested is that I get an expansion valve, and since I got a 2500 btu compressor I can use that expansion valve and use r-502 which has a boiling point of -50F @ .2 or so atm. While R-22 boils @ -40F at about the same atm. Where would be a good place to start to look for that expansion valve? He told me it would cost around 100 bux. But that sounds rediculous for such a small thing. Another thing he told me is that I might not be able to buy it because it contains gas so I might need a license. As for the accumulator is it actually for around 40 bux? Cuz if so, it would be tight if I can add it to my system.

Oh yes another thing, My Methanol (windshield washer fluid) temperature was 7 degrees F above the temperature of the refrigerant. I believe that is VERY GOOD considering I do not have to mess with the gas in my computer. I planned it out and measured everything and it will cost me around 100 bux in materials to convert my dehumidifier from what it looks like right now to an all acrylic case. The case will have a top and no sides for optimum air flow. I hope i will do it on friday.

000, if you are running your dehumidifier just fine, expect the compressor to blow up one day, at least, thats what the A/C guy told me.

Brians256 · 08-27-2002, 02:27 PM

Joe, I know that propane is dangerous, but incompatible with the lubricant oil? Propane should be compatible with any of the R12 systems out there. R12 systems should be able to use propane in a direct switch, although R134a systems sure wouldn't work. Also, the seals should be fine as well. Are you talking about running propane in automobile R12 systems? Those older systems have flexible hoses which aren't leakproof. That's why you needed to have a springtime refresh of your refrigerant.

Also, the performance drop from R12 to propane should be around 10% (not temperature, but heat moving capacity).

A typical homebrew setup should use less than 1.5 oz of propane, which is less dangerous than a 220VAC outlet or a natural gas stovetop. If you silver solder the copper joints and then run a leak test, the system should last darn near forever before springing a leak. You'll lose a compressor and need to evacuate and repair the loop before any propane escapes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but propane really shouldn't be that big of a deal if you don't try to torch a charged system. However, I'm still laughing at using a torch to "test" an actively running system with propane in it. Open up a solder seam by accident and see the torch flame suddenly get MUCH bigger....

Where's Darwin when you need him?

Joe · 08-27-2002, 02:35 PM

Brian, you know more about phase change than me!

But I have seen stuff on TV ( heheh yeh laugh) about propane being used in R-12 and R134A(?) setups( the "freon" substitute). And they showed that the lubricant used in most automotive A/C systems does react with Propane/Butane and can eat away seals... now whether this is as big of a problem as the show claimed, who knows...

I personally will use a chemical MEANT for the job instead of a chemical meant to BURN

aenigma · 08-27-2002, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe
While never using an Phase change compressor setup in a computer, I have worked on them in cars and appliances. and my comment on the whole deal is:

propane is stupid, and dangerous. Yes you can cool down low, but one leak, one spark, one big boom in a confined space.

Also 99.9% of all compressors out there are NOT suitable for propane. Will they work? yep. Will they last? Nope. Propane and Butane reacts with the lubircant/oil in an A/C system and will eat away at O rings in the systems.

There are pictures on the web of compressors that blew the stator out of the compressor just from using propane and having a seal leak.

Also testing with a torch is a VERY FREAKING stupid thing to do. Phase Change setups are made to dissapate X watts of heat, NOT constant FLAME! I would very much discount anything Punisher said, and consider it the dangerous and reckless way of burning money and time.

Actually that is not true.I use R290 in all of my phase change systems,it is just ar efrigerant.It is comptaible with alot of compressors.It will last,it just has a lower molecular weight than most refrigerants.I have never had a problem with propane.
Lots of people use it,its a good cheap alternitive.Although there may be dangers that I have not encountered,it is still a great refrigerant.

Oh and I dont use butane,just straight R290.

Brians256 · 08-27-2002, 03:14 PM

Joe, I suspect but am not sure that you have remembered some conversions of R12 systems to R134a going awry. Using R134a in a system that used R12 will cause failure. R134a reacts with the mineral oil in R12 systems and causes it to break down and thus ruins the compressor. Also, any moisture in an R134a system will cause hydroflouric acid to build up and eat away at just about everything (although the gaskets and compressor motor windings are a favorite).

I really hadn't heard of R290 causing any problems in existing well maintained R12 systems. Do you have any urls? I just spent 15 minutes googling, but that doesn't mean squat. I get lost in 100+ hits on the EPA related sites and Autofrost posts.

Good discussion! Learning more each day...

Too bad IRC is still blocked here at work.

BTW: this is a great site on some of the alternatives to R12.

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 03:19 PM

I thought that R-134A reacted with the oil in R-22, creating an acid that destroys everything.

Brians256 · 08-27-2002, 03:30 PM

R134a does react with mineral oil, which is the typical lubricant used in older systems like R12 and R22 systems. With R134a, they switched to newer lubricants such as POE. This is why you need to flush the compressor and whole system when you retrofit a R12 system to R134a. You have to remove all traces of old mineral oil as well as ensure that no moisture has crept back in during the retrofit.

Joe · 08-27-2002, 03:36 PM

Ahh bri, you know what thats prolly what I saw. but I think it was like one tier up from that scam of replace'n R134 into R12 systems... this was putting Propane into a R12 system to replace the R134 that was put in. I am guessing that the damage from the R134 let the Propane leak and boom.

ok I will shut up now and go back to my corner

hehehe

bigben2k · 08-27-2002, 03:52 PM

I heard that it was near impossible to clean the old oil out (unconfirmed) and that a car/van/RV's system had to be (better be) replaced, rather than try to update it to R-134A. The problem, as I remember it described is that there's always a trace of oil, and R-134A will react with it, even in minuscule amount to form an acid.

What's your take on that?

Brians256 · 08-27-2002, 04:35 PM

You can do it fairly well, from what I've heard, but it requires massive effort.

The tubing itself is not difficult. Simply flush the system repeatedly with a solvent and an oil filter. Since the oil is soluble (on purpose!) within the refrigerant, you can run R12 through the system until the mineral oil is gone.

The compressor is more difficult. Some people recommend cracking open the compressor and doing a detailed cleaning before sealing it back up. Others recommend "blowing" the oil out in a manner similar to (above) cleaning the tubing out.

I'd have to do more research before I trusted myself to do it, though. For instance, evacuating a system takes minutes with a good vacuum pump. But, getting the water out requires a 29.75" or better vacuum for up to 8 hours before the ALL of the water can be safely said to be gone. Do you believe that most HVAC mechanics spend that much quality time on their retrofits? Oh, and the recommendation is to change vacuum pump oil for every 10 hours (I think that was the number, double check it of course) of vacuum pump usage.

Doing it right is a massive pain, which is why it is practical for the home hobbyist like us, but not for most of the industry out there. Time is money.

08-27-2002, 12:16 PM	#161
SonixOS Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 282	no offense punisher but u act like u know it all and u talk here as if u own this place. You might be doing all this reading and might know yourself around but u dont know everything. I personally believe its not right for you to laugh at someone who wouldnt take the compressor off himself while u went out and blew up ur compressor. U blew it because u had too much f ucking liquid returning to the compressor. It happens when u have no load on the compressor, then all the liquid comes back to the compressor unless u have this 500 dollar collector thing i forgot whats it called. I would appreciate it before the next time u try to belittle someone. __________________ -sonix- ======================= Antec SX830 Abit KR7A-133 MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128 TV-IN and TV-OUT Sound Blaster Audigy Linksys LNE100 V2.0 Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig Watercooled http://www.sonixnet.tk =======================

08-27-2002, 01:18 PM	#164
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Thanks Joe. My comment would have been that Punisher's info, although good, is irreproducible: you wouldn't hardly be able to do what he did, in the steps that he did it. The use of Propane is dangerous, and although he posted a warning, he didn't quite get into the dangers: a small propane leak could be ignited by a heat source in another room. Using a torch to heat test a waterblock is a little out there, but I've never played that much with phase change units. I hope that everyone else here will still contribute to this thread, because it is a very good one: phase change info is really hard to come by. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-27-2002, 01:48 PM	#165
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	While never using an Phase change compressor setup in a computer, I have worked on them in cars and appliances. and my comment on the whole deal is: propane is stupid, and dangerous. Yes you can cool down low, but one leak, one spark, one big boom in a confined space. Also 99.9% of all compressors out there are NOT suitable for propane. Will they work? yep. Will they last? Nope. Propane and Butane reacts with the lubircant/oil in an A/C system and will eat away at O rings in the systems. There are pictures on the web of compressors that blew the stator out of the compressor just from using propane and having a seal leak. Also testing with a torch is a VERY FREAKING stupid thing to do. Phase Change setups are made to dissapate X watts of heat, NOT constant FLAME! I would very much discount anything Punisher said, and consider it the dangerous and reckless way of burning money and time. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

08-27-2002, 02:04 PM	#166
SonixOS Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 282	Thanks alot joe. I wanted to say what u did but I didnt feel I should be the person he should recieve it from after that other thread that went dead after his BS. Well I went to an A/C expert yesterday and he was amazed at my setup. The first thing he told me is that I am running my dehumidifier WAAAY below how the setup is intended to run. The Refrigerant temperature was like 15F while the ambient temperature was like 87F. We were able to tell that there was an enormous amount of liquid coming back from the evaporator that causes the compressor's tube to get all frosted and VERY VERY COLD. So what he suggested is that I get an expansion valve, and since I got a 2500 btu compressor I can use that expansion valve and use r-502 which has a boiling point of -50F @ .2 or so atm. While R-22 boils @ -40F at about the same atm. Where would be a good place to start to look for that expansion valve? He told me it would cost around 100 bux. But that sounds rediculous for such a small thing. Another thing he told me is that I might not be able to buy it because it contains gas so I might need a license. As for the accumulator is it actually for around 40 bux? Cuz if so, it would be tight if I can add it to my system. Oh yes another thing, My Methanol (windshield washer fluid) temperature was 7 degrees F above the temperature of the refrigerant. I believe that is VERY GOOD considering I do not have to mess with the gas in my computer. I planned it out and measured everything and it will cost me around 100 bux in materials to convert my dehumidifier from what it looks like right now to an all acrylic case. The case will have a top and no sides for optimum air flow. I hope i will do it on friday. 000, if you are running your dehumidifier just fine, expect the compressor to blow up one day, at least, thats what the A/C guy told me. __________________ -sonix- ======================= Antec SX830 Abit KR7A-133 MSI Geforce3 Ti200 VT128 TV-IN and TV-OUT Sound Blaster Audigy Linksys LNE100 V2.0 Toshiba DVD Drive 40x/16x IBM Deskstar 60GXP 60gig Watercooled http://www.sonixnet.tk =======================

08-27-2002, 02:35 PM	#168
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Brian, you know more about phase change than me! But I have seen stuff on TV ( heheh yeh laugh) about propane being used in R-12 and R134A(?) setups( the "freon" substitute). And they showed that the lubricant used in most automotive A/C systems does react with Propane/Butane and can eat away seals... now whether this is as big of a problem as the show claimed, who knows... I personally will use a chemical MEANT for the job instead of a chemical meant to BURN __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

08-23-2002, 01:25 PM	#151
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	What freon are you using.. this is from a dehumidifer right? If you are getting liquid in the compressor.. The return (suction line) will be frosted up to or real close to the compressor.. If so then you have to much freon..

08-24-2002, 12:48 AM	#152
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	I found some great info here on vac pumping.. check it out http://www.refparts.com/Catalog/Tool...cuum_pumps.asp I had NO clue you had to vacuum THAT long to get a proper dehydration of a system.. wowzor.. That is why I like to use my MAPP gas torch as well.. just to light heat the lines up.. it really whips the lamma's ass then.. cuz you have the water basically boiling off from your torches heat alone.. w00t

08-24-2002, 08:31 PM	#154
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	There is the right amount of freon charge in the system.. so don't worry about it... as long as the actual tube into the compressor isn't frosted over.. or very cold.. no problem

08-25-2002, 10:58 PM	#155
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	i got a good feeling i blew my compressor.. heh.. i hope that refrigerator that was in the garbage down the street in my neighborhood is still out.. hehe

08-26-2002, 01:55 PM	#156
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Argh.. the ****ing thing is dead.. ya well.. I got plans to pick up that frige down the street.. it's still out.. woohoo! When filling system with liquid propane.. put in only a LITTLE BIT.. liquid propane = LOTS of gas propane lol.. I had that F'in thing sludging like a mother.. funniest thing was the damn thing was actually working good for me.. except.. I killed it.. lol.. shit happens.. I'd like to find an extra water block for cheap/free.. and make an on-die system..

08-26-2002, 02:22 PM	#157
PixelCloud Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada the BIG TO Posts: 54	i found like 4 big huge refrigerators but i didn't bother with them

08-26-2002, 08:10 PM	#158
phiber Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 6	i found a fridge and im having my uncle take out the compressor rite now

08-27-2002, 01:57 AM	#159
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	rofl.. having your uncle do it.. do u know the first thing about phase change? I just picked up a frige tonite.. ganked the compressor out.. it's a really nice compressor.. quite powerful.. to bad it takes quite a bit to much power for me.. 115v at 5.5amp.. I know some of that will be the freezer fan.. and the light.. etc.. but the compressor will still take over 300w.. my goal is to take less power then my peltier did.. so I got an extra compressor here now.. it's a beaut.

08-27-2002, 11:21 AM	#160
phiber Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 6	well i exactly dont have the tools needed to take it out...and another thing why my uncle is taking it out is cuz.....ITS IN FRONT OF HIS HOUSE! woah hows that a concept. . . and ive been talking to ssjwizard and im learning not everybody knows as much as phase change as you do

08-27-2002, 12:31 PM	#162
\|PuNiSh3R\| Foo's Been Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 255	Accumulator.. that is the "500 dollar" thing.. I wasn't making fun of him.. Actually TAKING the compressor out is half the fun and half the learning expirence.. I could give a F uck less that I killed the compressor.. I didn't pay jack shit for it.. And I got a 2 more today.. so wtf is your point? I paid nothing for both of them.. Btw, that "500 dollar" thing is around $40.00...

08-27-2002, 02:27 PM	#167
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	Joe, I know that propane is dangerous, but incompatible with the lubricant oil? Propane should be compatible with any of the R12 systems out there. R12 systems should be able to use propane in a direct switch, although R134a systems sure wouldn't work. Also, the seals should be fine as well. Are you talking about running propane in automobile R12 systems? Those older systems have flexible hoses which aren't leakproof. That's why you needed to have a springtime refresh of your refrigerant. Also, the performance drop from R12 to propane should be around 10% (not temperature, but heat moving capacity). A typical homebrew setup should use less than 1.5 oz of propane, which is less dangerous than a 220VAC outlet or a natural gas stovetop. If you silver solder the copper joints and then run a leak test, the system should last darn near forever before springing a leak. You'll lose a compressor and need to evacuate and repair the loop before any propane escapes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but propane really shouldn't be that big of a deal if you don't try to torch a charged system. However, I'm still laughing at using a torch to "test" an actively running system with propane in it. Open up a solder seam by accident and see the torch flame suddenly get MUCH bigger.... Where's Darwin when you need him?

08-27-2002, 03:14 PM	#170
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	Joe, I suspect but am not sure that you have remembered some conversions of R12 systems to R134a going awry. Using R134a in a system that used R12 will cause failure. R134a reacts with the mineral oil in R12 systems and causes it to break down and thus ruins the compressor. Also, any moisture in an R134a system will cause hydroflouric acid to build up and eat away at just about everything (although the gaskets and compressor motor windings are a favorite). I really hadn't heard of R290 causing any problems in existing well maintained R12 systems. Do you have any urls? I just spent 15 minutes googling, but that doesn't mean squat. I get lost in 100+ hits on the EPA related sites and Autofrost posts. Good discussion! Learning more each day... Too bad IRC is still blocked here at work. BTW: this is a great site on some of the alternatives to R12.

08-27-2002, 03:19 PM	#171
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I thought that R-134A reacted with the oil in R-22, creating an acid that destroys everything. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-27-2002, 03:30 PM	#172
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	R134a does react with mineral oil, which is the typical lubricant used in older systems like R12 and R22 systems. With R134a, they switched to newer lubricants such as POE. This is why you need to flush the compressor and whole system when you retrofit a R12 system to R134a. You have to remove all traces of old mineral oil as well as ensure that no moisture has crept back in during the retrofit.

08-27-2002, 03:36 PM	#173
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Ahh bri, you know what thats prolly what I saw. but I think it was like one tier up from that scam of replace'n R134 into R12 systems... this was putting Propane into a R12 system to replace the R134 that was put in. I am guessing that the damage from the R134 let the Propane leak and boom. ok I will shut up now and go back to my corner hehehe __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

08-27-2002, 03:52 PM	#174
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I heard that it was near impossible to clean the old oil out (unconfirmed) and that a car/van/RV's system had to be (better be) replaced, rather than try to update it to R-134A. The problem, as I remember it described is that there's always a trace of oil, and R-134A will react with it, even in minuscule amount to form an acid. What's your take on that? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

08-27-2002, 04:35 PM	#175
Brians256 Pro/Staff Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 1,439	You can do it fairly well, from what I've heard, but it requires massive effort. The tubing itself is not difficult. Simply flush the system repeatedly with a solvent and an oil filter. Since the oil is soluble (on purpose!) within the refrigerant, you can run R12 through the system until the mineral oil is gone. The compressor is more difficult. Some people recommend cracking open the compressor and doing a detailed cleaning before sealing it back up. Others recommend "blowing" the oil out in a manner similar to (above) cleaning the tubing out. I'd have to do more research before I trusted myself to do it, though. For instance, evacuating a system takes minutes with a good vacuum pump. But, getting the water out requires a 29.75" or better vacuum for up to 8 hours before the ALL of the water can be safely said to be gone. Do you believe that most HVAC mechanics spend that much quality time on their retrofits? Oh, and the recommendation is to change vacuum pump oil for every 10 hours (I think that was the number, double check it of course) of vacuum pump usage. Doing it right is a massive pain, which is why it is practical for the home hobbyist like us, but not for most of the industry out there. Time is money.

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