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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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11-28-2005, 01:25 PM | #351 | |
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
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I'm not sure I agree, in the strictest of senses. How many waterblocks would you have to test before you felt confident saying there is a linear offset, so then no need to test with an IHS - 3? 4? 5? It would only take ONE block not in agreement to disrupt this 'conclusion.' |
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11-28-2005, 02:01 PM | #352 |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Absolutely right Al, but if 3 were in agreement, I think we would be good.
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11-28-2005, 02:03 PM | #353 |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Eh or a nonlinear relationship (then you'd need LOTS of points right?)
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11-28-2005, 02:20 PM | #354 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
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11-28-2005, 02:21 PM | #355 |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
I would think that as long as you're measuring it with a tc then you gain a bit of confidence in the whole system. The "do it once and forget it" troubles me, and the "skip IHS and assume it's just an offset for all blocks" also troubles me.
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11-28-2005, 02:34 PM | #356 |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
OK since think simple is one piece of advice...
What about just trying to work a piece of fishing line in between the block base and the IHS top when remounting and break the seal by "flossing" the CPU? Simple enough?
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11-28-2005, 02:42 PM | #357 | ||
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
A more rigid waterblock base would put more pressure direclty on the core, and result in a lower dT (core to IHS temp). This is one reason I highly doubt a constant linear offset would work. Quote:
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11-28-2005, 02:42 PM | #358 | |
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
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11-28-2005, 02:48 PM | #359 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
I'm not counting on the ability to replicate the inside TIM joint, exactly the same way that it is manufactured. I'm counting on the ability to apply an offset, which means that we have to have a repeatable TIM joint during testing, both inner and outer. So... this means that we have to have a TIM joint that can consistently be repeated. (great, now that I'm caught up...) How do we make sure it's repeated? Back to Cathar's objection; it's not quantified. PH remounts 5 times, and measures variations, but it doesn't actually quantify the TIM joint. Quantifying it would require a temp measurement on both sides of the TIM joint. So... we add a thermal probe down low in the heat die (horizontally, of course), and do a dT between it and the IHS?!? (how much more coffee am I going to need today to sort this out? ) Orkan; I don't think that anyone is going to dispute that an IHS does spread out the heat. What's really at issue is how significant it is. Then it comes down to wether or not it can be compensated by an offset, when using a straight die. (Darn, ya'll have caught up to all this while I was typing!) Someone (Les? Groth?) projected a 1mm thick IHS, but it looks like it's actually 1.4 mm. Flossing ?!? |
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11-28-2005, 02:56 PM | #360 | |
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
How significant the spreading is will depend on the specific waterblock cooling properties, I suspect. However the variance may be negligible, again, won't know till we try to quantify it. Also confused on the flossing, PH - are you talking about between the actual core and the IHS or just around the edges/seal of the IHS? |
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11-28-2005, 03:00 PM | #361 |
The Pro/Life Support System
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
hes talking about between the block and the IHS - this goes back to his concern about busting the CPU having the CPU and the block stuck together.
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11-28-2005, 03:02 PM | #362 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
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However, those blocks were made for the early P4 478's and AthlonXP's loadings. Today's 70-90lbs of force for the latest processors would require a circular step(s) to add strength to the thin base thickness. I can understand, all to well, how a think base can flex on a cold-block. Stev |
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11-28-2005, 03:11 PM | #363 | |
c00ling p00n
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
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11-28-2005, 03:26 PM | #364 | |
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Right. But its not attainable, and neither are TTV's themselves according to Bill. But basically the talk earlier in the thread was toward a heat die with and IHS with BOTH temps known, so we could quantify this (although it would only be representative of a CPU or TTV if the edges of the IHS were supported as well). The conclusion of that thought process? Method too complicated? Have to think more but may be advantageous of two different setups: Setup A: CPU with stock IHS, modified for a temperature measurement at the IHS surface. In theory both IHS and core (ondie) temp are known. Setup B: Heat die with separate IHS, temp sensor in both die and IHS surface. If results correlated between the two setups with the IHS on, the blocks could also be tested on the heat die without the IHS to indicate both IHS and bare-core perfomance? |
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11-28-2005, 04:10 PM | #365 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Specifically, if the heat flux is concentrated within a smaller area, then there's a "hot spot" and conversely, if the heat flux is spread out, then the overall temperature is lower, but the flux remains the same. The size of the area through which the heat flux flows can have an impact on the performance of a water block. As we've demonstrated though, it's not significant. Al, agreed, comparing the two would be interesting, just to put out this issue. FYI, Storm's design would be most susceptible to the difference. The big Q though; can it be compensated with an offset? |
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11-28-2005, 07:23 PM | #366 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
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11-28-2005, 07:42 PM | #367 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
1) the power level would have to be matched (*very* hard to do) 2) you're not likely to be able to mount a temp probe within the heat die, to replicate what a CPU would return, due to physical limitations. |
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11-28-2005, 10:01 PM | #368 | |
Cooling Neophyte
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Concerning issue three. You could set up ihs to be removable per mount. I am considering doing this myself. 1) Remove ihs. 2) Coat the top and outside edge of ihs with wax. 3) Now remount ihs. 4) Use JB Weld or some other epoxy to form a ring around ihs. This insures ihs will be placed in same spot through frequent removals. This would negate testing bare die. But guess you could also have a small jig machined to keep ihs in same place also. |
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11-28-2005, 10:17 PM | #369 |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Think I like the idea of flossing the CPU much better than putzing with the IHS. Gotta test it out though when I can get a spare hour.
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11-28-2005, 10:28 PM | #370 |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
As was mentioned, A64 tim joint degrades over several mountings. I think they use Shin etsu compound for the tim. Most certainly is not a glue or epoxie. As much as I hate Intel, they have by far the better ihs mounting...
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11-29-2005, 07:54 AM | #371 | |
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Hmmm, just straying back to the main topic... knew Swiftech had replaced Storm in the kits, but didn't know they'd completely discontinued it...
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11-29-2005, 08:20 AM | #372 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
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11-29-2005, 08:29 AM | #373 | |
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Quote:
Only it doesn't on all CPUs; only for sure on the TTV. //edit for 100% less speculation
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Getting paid like a biker with the best crank... -MF DOOM Last edited by pHaestus; 11-29-2005 at 09:46 AM. |
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11-29-2005, 09:08 AM | #374 | |
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
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11-29-2005, 09:10 AM | #375 |
Cooling Savant
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Re: Apogee from Swiftech...
Demand is still there for it no matter what at the moment, therefore there is still money to be made from it.
Marketing BS - force users over to Apogee by removing the alternative. Sucks. |
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