The "Cascade" - mini-cup directed jet-impingement block design (56K warn) - Page 15

rocketmanx · 11-22-2003, 11:01 AM

I'm just trying to get a feel for why this design works so well, point me the right direction, please

I understand heat conduction and transfer pretty well and according to the formula for heat conduction the big reason for the increase in performance of this block is the fact that the barrier is made considerably thinner in the cup regions and the surface area there has been increased considerably. Also the increased water speed due to the multiple "mini-jets".

Interested in the theory going on here since this is a pretty new deal with water blocks.

8-Ball · 11-22-2003, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rocketmanx
the big reason for the increase in performance of this block is the fact that the barrier is made considerably thinner in the cup regions and the surface area there has been increased considerably.

That's pretty much it.

8-ball

rocketmanx · 11-22-2003, 03:43 PM

Thanks 8-ball

So I also assume that some have gotten away from the idea of not putting any resistance into the flow at the block area as well? Or not. Seems the best way to increase flow at the small area where cooling is needed, over the core, is to do something like the jets where you force water through a smaller hole to speed up flow accross the barrier? Or run a very high psi/high flow pump.

Sorry if I"m asking reahshed questions, did a search and the threads were numerous and LONG. I'm just getting into this too, like started Friday

EDIT- I did some searching on micro jet impingement, very informative. Kind of wierd to think guys at Purdue doing research on cooling micro-chips

I get why the cold water over the welded pipe works now. Less barrier due to water force from the spiggot I use. So high pressure IS the answer to cooling then. I hope this doesn't mean soemones gonna build a block and system out of a pressure washer

Since87 · 11-22-2003, 09:02 PM

You at Purdue rocketmanx?

Blackeagle · 11-22-2003, 09:51 PM

M_D_K,

Good to see you here, welcome to ProCooling! ! !

rocketmanx · 11-23-2003, 12:52 AM

No, was for a while quite few years ago.

Did a search and found a paper at Purdue on impingement jets and microprocessor cooling.

M_D_K · 02-18-2004, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackeagle

M_D_K,

Good to see you here, welcome to ProCooling! ! !

Quick thread revival to say thank you to blackeagle, also to say how happy i am with the block and that i love it to bits and is doing me very proud

. Also not to let this thread die, the block is an amazing piece of enginering and art in my opinion and that Cather deserves a huge pat on the back for all the work and effert hes putting into his block design and manufacture.

Thanks Cather

morgan.

P.S. hello blackeagle

ChrioN · 02-23-2004, 02:10 AM

Cathar,
I haven't read the whole thread, but didn't you say that 4mm diameter holes worked better then like 2 or 3. But those jetholes looks really tiny to me. ?

Cathar · 02-23-2004, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrioN

Cathar,
I haven't read the whole thread, but didn't you say that 4mm diameter holes worked better then like 2 or 3. But those jetholes looks really tiny to me. ?

Sorry - you'll have to dig up the quote. Not sure to what you're referring to here. The jet holes on the Cascade are about as wide as a sewing pin.

ChrioN · 02-23-2004, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

Sorry - you'll have to dig up the quote. Not sure to what you're referring to here. The jet holes on the Cascade are about as wide as a sewing pin.

Hmm...Ok. another question: If the holes in the base is 4mm wide, then the id of the jets are ?

satanicoo · 02-23-2004, 09:56 AM

You didn't get it.
Its way lower then 4 mm wide.

8-Ball · 02-23-2004, 10:42 AM

Chrion, are you possibly getting confused with the 4xID theory mentioned earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure, but I think this refers to the diameter of the cup relative to the diameter of the jet.

I'm not sure cathar has mentioned the actual dimensions.

8-ball

ChrioN · 02-24-2004, 08:01 AM

ah ok. I though he "gave" them out

JakeX · 02-24-2004, 08:45 AM

wow that is sooo cool... hehe wish I had my own work-shop to play around in like that

THE PATRIOT · 03-23-2004, 12:21 PM

As always, I'm late, but I would like to know if there is one little possibility of getting THE MASTERPIECE, although it's been discontinued. (Take care Cathar

)

If anyone is selling one or you know any way of getting a CASCADE SS, please PM it to me or post it here.

Thank you very much to you guys, thank you cathar for being so great and cool.

Kind Regards, THE PATRIOT

Cathar · 03-23-2004, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE PATRIOT

As always, I'm late, but I would like to know if there is one little possibility of getting THE MASTERPIECE, although it's been discontinued. (Take care Cathar

)

If anyone is selling one or you know any way of getting a CASCADE SS, please PM it to me or post it here.

Thank you very much to you guys, thank you cathar for being so great and cool.

Kind Regards, THE PATRIOT

All I can say at this time is that there will be an "indefinite" hiatus.

MC · 03-23-2004, 07:26 PM

Well I got bored and decided to try to replicate the middle-layer, the jet layer. I got as far as milling it for about 15 second before I realized that I can't use acrylic with a 1/16th" endmill. I think the LOC on that endmill is only 3/32 making any cut deeper than that a big mellted mess so I need to either recalc with a less deeper cut or get a new end mill. I even used flood coolant. I'm gonna try and make it aluminum...just because it'd probablly look cool. Seems to me that the material cathar used was some kind of polycarbonate (lexan maybe) and an extra long endmill, I admit I haven't read this whole thread through yet. Anyways I am wondering if your layer design looked anything like this:

This is a simple 2d path drawing, drawn with 1/16th" tool dia. compensation. The outer "oval" would be an o-ring channel, next inner oval would be the area of coolant flow, the concentric half circles just mill the section down to .1 inches as well as the cross hatch design with the short cuts to make each tube octagonal. So did I come close? The drill through holes are on another layer that Isn't visible...gets to busy to see, but I'm sure you know where they would be.

Cathar · 03-23-2004, 08:48 PM

MC, looks about right, except the Cascade tubes are hexagons, not squares. There's a series of 0°, 60°, and 120° angled paths, not 45° & 135° like you have in your picture.

The very first "tubed" prototype was made out of acrylic using a 1.0mm (~5/128") cutter. You don't need to cut deeper than about 1/8". Most endmills we use have around 4 times the cutting shank length as compared to the bit width.

A Cascade cut with a 1/16" end-mill, and everything else being balanced appropriately, would result in something that would perform slightly worse than a White Water.

The present Cascade/SS gets cut with a 1/32" end-mill.

friku · 03-28-2004, 06:05 AM

I wonder Cathar if you received all my messages send to you.

I know that you are now very busy in other things than trying to make another batch of blocks, but when you make more, remember me...

Thx in advance,
and: saludos THE PATRIOT...

bye,
friku

PrinceXXX · 06-27-2004, 03:56 AM

Just read through the whole thread and was impressed. Definitely learnt a lot and came to realise a few things. The block looks beautiful and definitely performs well (as tests and sales have shown) I remember visiting your site a few months ago to find all blocks had been sold. Congratulations on the great design and thanks for enlightening me.

its a shame you're not producing these at the moment though. Theres still a high demand for them.

Cathar · 06-27-2004, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceXXX

its a shame you're not producing these at the moment though. Theres still a high demand for them.

Something better on the way. Not enough time for me to continue making the Cascade blocks in the fashion that I was. Too much of my own time required. Next lot will be different in the way they are produced, at least in terms of my own personal involvement in them.

Jabo · 06-28-2004, 01:49 PM

Are you getting a flock of faithful deciples to produce them ?

Any moves towards patent application?

satanicoo · 06-28-2004, 08:00 PM

I think you meant disciples

Cathar, any news? There are ppl killing for info!

Cathar · 06-28-2004, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jabo

Are you getting a flock of faithful deciples to produce them ?

Any moves towards patent application?

Disciples eh? No - just more automated, and with less "finishing" time. Bases will be lapped by machine properly. Blocks just bolt together. Barbs just screw in with a bit of sealant without needing to be cut-down. No need to re-drill the holes because the new material machines more cleanly. Because I'm not using polycarbonate, there's no need to be as careful with the barbs. The material being used is somewhat elastic, and so it deals with barb, tubing and temperature stresses more gracefully than polycarbonate. Problem is that you can't see through it, but again, that's no issue because the blocks fit together like a jig-saw and auto-align themselves.

So basically it's just a case of screw in barbs straight from the shop with a bit of sealant, bolt the blocks together, and package them. This is all something that even my wife or eldest daughter could help with. Still need to assemble each mounting kit though. I don't believe in just throwing in a set number of washers, nuts and bolts, because often (enough) some some bolt or nut comes with a hacked thread and doesn't screw on properly, and I'd rather that was found out before the mounting gear goes out the door.

So yeah, basically what was probably close to an hour of my time per block doing a fair amount of physical work, will get reduced to around 15 minutes of low-key work.

Etacovda · 06-29-2004, 05:53 AM

Apologies if its been mentioned before, but is a couple of months still the e.t.a on these blocks? (edit- just read the liquid cooling xxx thread)

Cheers

Brendon

11-22-2003, 03:43 PM	#353
rocketmanx Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 127	Thanks 8-ball So I also assume that some have gotten away from the idea of not putting any resistance into the flow at the block area as well? Or not. Seems the best way to increase flow at the small area where cooling is needed, over the core, is to do something like the jets where you force water through a smaller hole to speed up flow accross the barrier? Or run a very high psi/high flow pump. Sorry if I"m asking reahshed questions, did a search and the threads were numerous and LONG. I'm just getting into this too, like started Friday EDIT- I did some searching on micro jet impingement, very informative. Kind of wierd to think guys at Purdue doing research on cooling micro-chips I get why the cold water over the welded pipe works now. Less barrier due to water force from the spiggot I use. So high pressure IS the answer to cooling then. I hope this doesn't mean soemones gonna build a block and system out of a pressure washer Last edited by rocketmanx; 11-22-2003 at 07:30 PM.

02-23-2004, 09:56 AM	#361
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	You didn't get it. Its way lower then 4 mm wide. __________________ back.

02-23-2004, 10:42 AM	#362
8-Ball Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oxford University, UK Posts: 452	Chrion, are you possibly getting confused with the 4xID theory mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm not sure, but I think this refers to the diameter of the cup relative to the diameter of the jet. I'm not sure cathar has mentioned the actual dimensions. 8-ball __________________ For those who believe that water needs to travel slowly through the radiator for optimum performance, read the following thread. READ ALL OF THIS!!!!

02-24-2004, 08:45 AM	#364
JakeX Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Windsor, Ontario Posts: 23	wow that is sooo cool... hehe wish I had my own work-shop to play around in like that __________________ \| AMD 2500+ @ 3200+ (205x11@1.65v) on Epox 8rda+ \| 512 PC3200 DDR400 Samsung 6-3-3-2.5 \| ATI 9700pro 128MB (365/315) ------------------------------------------------------

03-23-2004, 12:21 PM	#365
THE PATRIOT Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: SPAIN Posts: 14	As always, I'm late, but I would like to know if there is one little possibility of getting THE MASTERPIECE, although it's been discontinued. (Take care Cathar ) If anyone is selling one or you know any way of getting a CASCADE SS, please PM it to me or post it here. Thank you very much to you guys, thank you cathar for being so great and cool. Kind Regards, THE PATRIOT __________________ Thank you, THE PATRIOT

11-22-2003, 11:01 AM	#351
rocketmanx Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 127	I'm just trying to get a feel for why this design works so well, point me the right direction, please I understand heat conduction and transfer pretty well and according to the formula for heat conduction the big reason for the increase in performance of this block is the fact that the barrier is made considerably thinner in the cup regions and the surface area there has been increased considerably. Also the increased water speed due to the multiple "mini-jets". Interested in the theory going on here since this is a pretty new deal with water blocks.

11-22-2003, 09:02 PM	#354
Since87 Pro/Guru - Uber Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 834	You at Purdue rocketmanx?

11-22-2003, 09:51 PM	#355
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	M_D_K, Good to see you here, welcome to ProCooling! ! !

11-23-2003, 12:52 AM	#356
rocketmanx Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 127	No, was for a while quite few years ago. Did a search and found a paper at Purdue on impingement jets and microprocessor cooling.

02-23-2004, 02:10 AM	#358
ChrioN Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 318	Cathar, I haven't read the whole thread, but didn't you say that 4mm diameter holes worked better then like 2 or 3. But those jetholes looks really tiny to me. ?

02-24-2004, 08:01 AM	#363
ChrioN Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 318	ah ok. I though he "gave" them out

03-23-2004, 07:26 PM	#367
MC Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 26	Well I got bored and decided to try to replicate the middle-layer, the jet layer. I got as far as milling it for about 15 second before I realized that I can't use acrylic with a 1/16th" endmill. I think the LOC on that endmill is only 3/32 making any cut deeper than that a big mellted mess so I need to either recalc with a less deeper cut or get a new end mill. I even used flood coolant. I'm gonna try and make it aluminum...just because it'd probablly look cool. Seems to me that the material cathar used was some kind of polycarbonate (lexan maybe) and an extra long endmill, I admit I haven't read this whole thread through yet. Anyways I am wondering if your layer design looked anything like this: This is a simple 2d path drawing, drawn with 1/16th" tool dia. compensation. The outer "oval" would be an o-ring channel, next inner oval would be the area of coolant flow, the concentric half circles just mill the section down to .1 inches as well as the cross hatch design with the short cuts to make each tube octagonal. So did I come close? The drill through holes are on another layer that Isn't visible...gets to busy to see, but I'm sure you know where they would be.

03-23-2004, 08:48 PM	#368
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	MC, looks about right, except the Cascade tubes are hexagons, not squares. There's a series of 0°, 60°, and 120° angled paths, not 45° & 135° like you have in your picture. The very first "tubed" prototype was made out of acrylic using a 1.0mm (~5/128") cutter. You don't need to cut deeper than about 1/8". Most endmills we use have around 4 times the cutting shank length as compared to the bit width. A Cascade cut with a 1/16" end-mill, and everything else being balanced appropriately, would result in something that would perform slightly worse than a White Water. The present Cascade/SS gets cut with a 1/32" end-mill.

03-28-2004, 06:05 AM	#369
friku Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 10	I wonder Cathar if you received all my messages send to you. I know that you are now very busy in other things than trying to make another batch of blocks, but when you make more, remember me... Thx in advance, and: saludos THE PATRIOT... bye, friku

06-27-2004, 03:56 AM	#370
PrinceXXX Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NZL Posts: 14	Just read through the whole thread and was impressed. Definitely learnt a lot and came to realise a few things. The block looks beautiful and definitely performs well (as tests and sales have shown) I remember visiting your site a few months ago to find all blocks had been sold. Congratulations on the great design and thanks for enlightening me. its a shame you're not producing these at the moment though. Theres still a high demand for them.

06-28-2004, 01:49 PM	#372
Jabo Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hertfordshire, England Posts: 164	Are you getting a flock of faithful deciples to produce them ? Any moves towards patent application? __________________ Museum piece but .... Medusa cooled

06-28-2004, 08:00 PM	#373
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	I think you meant disciples Cathar, any news? There are ppl killing for info! __________________ back.

06-29-2004, 05:53 AM	#375
Etacovda Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dunedin NZ Posts: 735	Apologies if its been mentioned before, but is a couple of months still the e.t.a on these blocks? (edit- just read the liquid cooling xxx thread) Cheers Brendon Last edited by Etacovda; 06-29-2004 at 06:00 AM.

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