|
|
Water Block Design / Construction Building your own block? Need info on designing one? Heres where to do it |
Thread Tools |
06-01-2003, 11:29 PM | #176 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 381
|
Quote:
__________________
Michael E. Robbins M.A.Sc. Candidate, University of Toronto 12.1 GHz of AMD's finest (17.7 GHz total) crunching proudly for the AMDMB.com Killer Frogs SETI BOINC: Dual Opteron 246s (Iwill DK8N) | XP2800+ (Shuttle SN41G2) | 3x XP2400+ (ASUS A7N266-vm) SETI BOINC: 2x P4 2.8E (ASUS P4R800-vm) | Crunching 24/7 |
|
06-02-2003, 02:14 AM | #177 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oxford University, UK
Posts: 452
|
Quote:
This has come up before, I will try and find it. Neglecting the change in transfer coefficients with varying flow rates, there would be no difference in water temperature if you varied the speed of the flow through the rad. Goes slowly, the rad dissipates more energy from each unit volume of water, but fewer unit volumes of water flow through the rad. End result, no change. Now add the fact that at higher flow rates, the efficiency of the convective heat transfer from water to rad is improved, so now we still have the same amount of thermal energy dissipated, but the water temp will be lower. 8-ball
__________________
For those who believe that water needs to travel slowly through the radiator for optimum performance, read the following thread. READ ALL OF THIS!!!! |
|
06-03-2003, 12:27 AM | #178 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4
|
you guys are like that Hawking's freak
So what the f**k do I get a big ass pump or what? I've read this bull for an hour, that one about piss weighing more as it goes out faster was funny tho. Anyway, do I get the best components from dangerden or is it a load of crap? I have ordered this dual BIX rad that can hold 2 120mm fans. For what, So it can strugle to hit ambient and I just wasted some dough, or is it a good rad?
No brainiac, I am alpha omega stuff pls. Just a simple reply for the untrained but more than capable mind of myself. |
06-03-2003, 08:18 AM | #179 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 381
|
Re: you guys are like that Hawking's freak
Quote:
__________________
Michael E. Robbins M.A.Sc. Candidate, University of Toronto 12.1 GHz of AMD's finest (17.7 GHz total) crunching proudly for the AMDMB.com Killer Frogs SETI BOINC: Dual Opteron 246s (Iwill DK8N) | XP2800+ (Shuttle SN41G2) | 3x XP2400+ (ASUS A7N266-vm) SETI BOINC: 2x P4 2.8E (ASUS P4R800-vm) | Crunching 24/7 |
|
06-03-2003, 10:41 AM | #180 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4
|
no offence genius
bull is slang for stuff which has many different meanings depending on ones interpritation of its definition. I think reflecting ones perspective in general about taking offence and how they feel in a given offencive situation. So take it easy science star. Im still finding your posts very informitaive and bla bla bla so thanks alot. I personally like Greymatter by the way, he doesnt carry his own spotlight.
|
06-03-2003, 11:47 AM | #181 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 381
|
No offence taken here Chief... just giving you some advice that you'd do well to listen to on these forums. Better to learn and think on your own than to ask people to do it for you.
Quote:
__________________
Michael E. Robbins M.A.Sc. Candidate, University of Toronto 12.1 GHz of AMD's finest (17.7 GHz total) crunching proudly for the AMDMB.com Killer Frogs SETI BOINC: Dual Opteron 246s (Iwill DK8N) | XP2800+ (Shuttle SN41G2) | 3x XP2400+ (ASUS A7N266-vm) SETI BOINC: 2x P4 2.8E (ASUS P4R800-vm) | Crunching 24/7 |
|
06-03-2003, 03:27 PM | #182 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4
|
ooops
yea him, Greystar, sorry. Im going to so many different forums, its so crazy how much info one can gather on this topic. And keeping track of names.
|
06-05-2003, 07:12 PM | #183 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nth Lincs UK
Posts: 8
|
Question
Got a question or lack of answer that is now bugging me since reading this thread, i'm sure you guys can clear it up for me.
Before i do what i do now the previous 8yrs i was employed as a control & instrumentation engineer for a UK power company. The power station i worked at was CCGT : combined cycle gas turbine, i.e Gas turbines produced electricity then exhaust gases from the GT's feed heat recovery boilers generating steam in turn feeding steam turbines & walla more electricity. The steam turbine condesnate then pumps back to a de-aerator tank, this tank then feeds the 6 boiler circuits/ drums & on & on.... Can sketch the config if it makes it easier to picture The boilers have 6 circuits, the lowest in the stack (& hottest) are HP ( high pressure circuits), the highest the LP circuits. The very top (& coolest part of stack) circuit is the pre-heater circuit. The condesnate returning from the ST condensor passes through this pre-heater section for numerous reasons & leads me onto the question: If the actuators (valves) controlling the pre-heater inlets control to wide open (to high flow) little heat is absorbed by the pre-heater section, throttle the flow right back & significant increases in heat are observed. We where always told & up till reading this thread i took as true that the reason was the condensate was not in the pre-heater section long enough to absorb heat. Can anyone clear this up for me? Can expand on descriptions & include sketches if it helps TIA |
06-05-2003, 07:32 PM | #184 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
|
quite correct
both sides of the heat exchanger are not operating at the same efficacy and the lowest will dictate the performance overall |
06-06-2003, 03:38 AM | #185 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nth Lincs UK
Posts: 8
|
going to sounds dumb here but i'm still failing to comprehend the difference between more flow = good for a pc w/c system, & more flow = bad in condensate pre-heaters.
At the power plant all temperatures, pressures, flows etc where measured in triplicate & then voted by the control system so reliable data. With reduced flow we'd observe a) greater dt over pre-heater inlet /outlet & b) stack temperatures at the pre-heater level would reduce, i,e more stack heat absorbed into pre-heater water. I'm no thermo wiz (v.basic grasp), but i see 2 instances of heat exchangers both with water in liquid state both behaving differently? |
06-06-2003, 04:06 AM | #186 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oxford University, UK
Posts: 452
|
I think I get the idea.
In your case, you have a liquid coming into a heat exchanger, that you want to heat up. In this case, yes the liquid needs to remain in the heat exchanger for a longer period of time, so that it will absorb more thermal energy. In effect, you are looking for a maximum temperature differnce between the liquid before and the liquid after the heat exchanger. However, in the case of water cooling, we are not concerned with the temperature differnce of the water. An ideal coolant would have an infinte specific heat capacity, and the temperature would not change at any point in the loop. We are concerned with the temperature of coolant required to dissipate the heat. So in your case, you need to get the liquid to as high a temperature as possible, but this has to be in a single pass through the heat exchanger. If you speed up the flow, you still want the same thermal energy to be dissipated into the same volume of water. Obviously, as you have stated, this is not possible. But for water cooling, if we speed up the flow, then we don't need to dissipate as much per unit volume of coolant. So, in your case, if you want to double the flow rate, and have the liquid coming out at the same temperature, then you need to double the thermal energy dissipated by the heat exchanger, however, the heat dissipation in watercooling is constant, so the flow rate doesn't matter in the same way. I hope this makes sense. It's quite hard to explain. 8-ball
__________________
For those who believe that water needs to travel slowly through the radiator for optimum performance, read the following thread. READ ALL OF THIS!!!! |
06-06-2003, 04:07 AM | #187 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Just shut up ;) ...
Posts: 1,068
|
A water block will transfer more heat if water is left in place, but you'll get a temp rise which is'nt wanted...
You were trying to heat the coolant/water no?. we're not. Leaving the water in place longer will cause a higher temp which will cause a higher DT(?) which will heat the water more but we are trying not to let the temp rise, but to cool it. Carrying the heat off at the lowest temp... PS. This is'nt a statement, it's my guess. I don't understand fully heat transfer 'lingo/theory' much either. Unfortunatly I don't have the interest/drive to investigate it fully so I only dabble when I feel I need to ... PPS. Halo BillA!!, hows work?. Getting your own way I hope!... |
06-06-2003, 05:02 AM | #188 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nth Lincs UK
Posts: 8
|
thanks
i think its sinking in, or something is :
varying flow in a pc-w/c single closed loop does not change time in the exchangers, quote cathars example Quote:
The power plant scenario though i 1st viewed as single closed loop, is far from it due to numerous cascaded loops & changes of states etc, so its the 'single shot' through the exchanger i think that explains it to me. That right? .... in laymans terms |
|
06-06-2003, 05:29 AM | #189 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oxford University, UK
Posts: 452
|
Let me try and explain it this way.
There are two ways to use a heat exchanger. 1. Dissipate a constant power. 2. Cool a liquid down to a constant temperature. For 1, if we increase the flow rate, then the energy dissipated per second does not need to change, so the energy dissipated per unit volume of liquid decreases. For 2, then we need to dissipate a constant amount of energy per unit volume per second, so if we increase the flow, rate, then more energy must be dissipated by the heat exchanger. Just different uses of a heat exchanger. 8-ball
__________________
For those who believe that water needs to travel slowly through the radiator for optimum performance, read the following thread. READ ALL OF THIS!!!! |
06-06-2003, 08:26 AM | #190 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Da UP
Posts: 517
|
Quote:
The water is like a conveyer belt. Picture a steady stream of sand landing on a conveyer belt. The flow of sand remains the same (the heat). Now increase the speed of the belt to an insane speed and what happens? The belt will look like it is almost empty compared to when it was going at a slow speed but the same amount of sand is being moved. |
|
06-06-2003, 09:00 AM | #191 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Just shut up ;) ...
Posts: 1,068
|
Would 'more heat units' be OK for you?...
Quote:
|
|
06-06-2003, 09:11 AM | #192 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Just shut up ;) ...
Posts: 1,068
|
No I don't think it would would it?. It'd have to be more heat units per unit of water would'nt it?...
PS: Was the word 'heat' really so ambivilent when taken in context with the rest of my reply?, or did you just read that one line and pounce? ... |
06-06-2003, 09:20 AM | #193 | |
Pro/Guru - Uber Mod
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 834
|
Quote:
|
|
06-14-2003, 12:31 AM | #194 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North Billerica, MA, USA
Posts: 451
|
Another Newb w/ questions...
(Good ones I hope)
This is an excellent thread, I've been learning quite a bit, thanks to all of you that have been 'experting' on it. Let me run a few things by to see if I'm thinking correctly. I think I understand the theory, but I wouldn't try to repeat it ;-} I'm more interested in how it applies. I'm in the process of designing a system which will be a heavy duty server/workstation configuration. I'm after high reliability and stability, so I won't be overclocking however I want to get as close to silent operation as I can. From what I've been reading, this implies needing high flow rates, and a big rad w/ multiple large slow running fans for high volume airflow. Correct? To be as silent running as I can, I should use as few fans as possible, and make the ones I use as big as I can, correct? I am planning to get as big a case as I can, and am thinking in terms of one or two 120's on the front sucking in (w/ filters,and trying to keep the case slightly pressurized for dust suppression), and a couple of 90's on the back blowing out through the rad, plus the PSU fan. I would use a digital doc or equivalent to keep speeds low unless things got hot. Does this sound like a reasonable plan? I am planning to use a dual processor mobo, and high speed SCSI drives, but nothing fancy in the way of video. Judging from everything I've been reading, it looks like my primary heat sources will be the two CPU's, the hard drives (and possibly a DVD burner) and maybe the Northbridge (It's the only thing in the mobo picture with a heatsink) In order to keep the number of fans to a minimum, I expect I would need to put a heat sink on each of those sources. If I do, would cooling the rest of the system with the fan setup described above be adequate? I haven't seen much description of multiple heat source plumbing patterns. I am making the following assumptions: Tell me if I'm missing anything? 1. The CPU's need the most cooling, and one should not feed into the other, so they need to be in parrallel. 2. To maximize the flow to the CPU's they should be plumbed w/ 1/2" tube, and my blocks (I'm going to make my own) should be designed to allow a high flow by staying fairly close to 1/2" worth of passage cross section while encouraging turbulence over the die area. 3. The drives and Northbridge don't make as much heat, so I can use smaller plumbing on them for lower flow. 4. Resevoirs seem to be neutral or a good thing in regards to cooling, and make maintainance and operation easier... 5. Optimal plumbing pattern is 'pump > rad > hot stuff > resevoir > pump' Based on this, I am planning the following: 1. A pump (not sure what size, suggestions welcomed, but probably biggish) with an input barb as big as will fit it, and an output the same size as the rad input. 2. A rad, (I'll probably use a heater core for cost reasons) the largest one I can fit onto the outside back of the case with a shroud to space it an inch or two away from two fans mounted inside the case blowing through it (preferably 92's, but will use 80's if I must) *Note that the shroud will need at least an internal separator between the fans, and possibly flaps over one or both to prevent 'air shorts' especially if one is shut down when system is cool.* 3. On the output side of the rad, a manifold. I am thinking of making the manifold out of 1.5" PVC pipe drilled and tapped for barbs as needed for input and outputs for each circuit. My thought is this should minimize pressure drop from the plumbing and ensure that each CPU gets about the same flow. Circuits as follows: one for each CPU (1/2") one or more 1/4" for drives, northbridge, etc. (how many?) 4. Heat sinks (I'll probably start a seperate thread for those later) 5. A mirror image of the manifold in 3 feeding into: 6. A resevoir, made from yet more PVC pipe, w/ extra barbs for a sight glass tube, and a cleanout plug at the top for filling. Does this sound like a reasonable plan? Can anyone see anything that I'm missing or screwing up on excessively? Thanks, Gooserider
__________________
Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
06-14-2003, 11:06 AM | #195 | |||||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 238
|
Re: Another Newb w/ questions...
This is quite a lot to comment on, so I thought I'd just take this one piece.
Quote:
You might be better off putting them in parallel to reduce the pressure drop - two resistances in parallel create less pressure drop than two resistances in series - but the result of this is half the flow rate across each block, and typically worse cooling. You'd have to try to be sure, but it's my opinion you'd get better results putting the CPU blocks in series. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Good questions. Alchemy |
|||||
06-14-2003, 11:20 PM | #196 | ||||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North Billerica, MA, USA
Posts: 451
|
Thanks for the response Alchemy. I hope it shows that I've been trying to do my own thinking on this stuff, but it's kind of new to me.
Quote:
Quote:
I had thought of trying to cool the northbridge just by jamming some copper tubing in between the fins on the existing passive heat sink. Would that work, or would it cause more problems than it would solve? The hard drives I'll be running are going to be either the 10 or 15K rpm Seagate Cheetahs. Seagate's website specs them at 18 watts each which doesn't seem that much to me, but the stuff I've seen on drive cooling says it's needed on any of the over 7200 rpm drives. I'm planning to put them in the internal 3.5" bays of whatever case I get, and those usually don't get much ventilation to speak of. Quote:
Quote:
Gooserider.
__________________
Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
||||
06-15-2003, 11:05 AM | #197 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Omaha, NE USA
Posts: 216
|
A little help here please: Alchemy, 8-Ball, Skulemate?
Aren't manifolds bad for pressure drop? (in this situation as described) Since every abrupt change in diameter causes pressure drop and a manifold has multiple changes in diameter, where would one expect to benefit from using a manifold over using carefully selected components and just running them in series? I know there are way too many variables to give a difinitive answer but some thoughts on the subject would be nice. Thanks. And hey it's still 'on topic'. |
06-15-2003, 02:51 PM | #198 | |
Thermophile
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az
Posts: 1,264
|
Quote:
Say a high flow system moves coolant at 1 ft/s through a 1/2ID system. That means every second 9.5 cubic inches of coolant move through. That comes out to 155 grams of coolant in metric. Assume water with a specific heat of 4.186 j/g. That means a heat capacity of 650j/C. So you'd need to input 650 joules per second (watts) to heat the coolant 1 degree. With a hundred watt CPU that means the second CPU gets heated all of .15C hotter then the first! Thats why its safe to assume temperature is more or less constant inside the loop. And those numbers are conservative. 1 ft/s isn't all that fast, and few CPUs actually put out 100w continuously even when OCed. |
|
06-16-2003, 02:55 AM | #199 | ||
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North Billerica, MA, USA
Posts: 451
|
Ok, Sounds like series is it...
Quote:
Quote:
My design would really have just two diameter changes per manifold. The one that splits the flow will have one big increase in diameter as it enters the manifold, and then a restriction on exit as it goes back down to the tube ID for that circuit. The one that recombines the flows would do the reverse. My intent with the manifolds was twofold. One was to split the flow into different circuits, and the other was to use it to reduce the diameter of the radiator lines (probably 3/4" or 7/8" judging by most of the heater core specs I've seen) to the diameter of the circuit lines. I still think I need two cooling loops, as I don't think the NB or drives need 1/2" plumbing or flow levels; nor do I want to try to get 1/2" into the drive bays. Also if I was to try to make drive cooling plates with 1/2" passages I'd end up with plates that were bigger than the drives I have trouble thinking a manifold splitter would be more restrictive than adding a lengthy loop of 1/4" plumbing in series with the 1/2" CPU plumbing. Of course, the arguement that says I should put the CPU's in series would also apply to my NB and drives, suggesting that I really only need to have two circuits, one 1/2" loop for the CPU's and a 1/4" loop for the other stuff. Manifolds seem a bit of an overkill approach for so few splits, so I might end up going with "T" or "Y" fittings instead. How would the restriction from those compare to what a manifold would produce? Even more to the bottom line, If I go with a good high flow pump (say an Eheim 1048 or 1250) how much would I need to care? If I can get say 1-2 GPM flow through the system, does it REALLY matter? Alternatively, given the list of things to cool I mentioned in my first post (2 CPU's, 1 NB, 3 drives) what would you do to plumb it? Gooserider
__________________
Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
||
06-17-2003, 08:02 AM | #200 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 234
|
Many people have more than 1 exaust from there CPU block. They then either Y it back together, or use each exaust line to cool a different heat source effectively turning there Wb into a manifold. I assume people use multiple exausts to lessen resistance or to get a better flow pattern.
I am planning on making a WW inspired block. The exausts will be used to cool the NB and GPU in parallel. The Intake will be 1/2in. Should the exaust be: 2 x 3/8in 0.220893233 in2 2 x 1/2in 0.392699082 in2 4 x 3/8in 0.441786467 in2 Does anyone have any comments on which one would be the best? Thanks for any help. |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|