Additives & Coolants

Marci · 02-22-2005, 09:18 AM

Slap me if this has been covered, I will admit to not searching fully... but...

I notice Asetek advertise their WaterChill additive as "Anti Algae"... however, I also suspect from what I read that it's just plain old Water Wetter rebottled...

I dug a little deeper, and basically NONE of the additives thrown about in the watercooling world (well, the popular 3, Zerex Racing Super Coolant, WaterWetter, Purple Ice) actually contain ANY anti-fungal / algae / biocides whatsoever from what I can find... despite many people stating that they do, myself included in the past...

Can anyone confirm the above??

I plan to send all 4 additives mentioned off to a lab for chemical analysis for comparison at some point anyways so that should answer the Asetek suspicions...

Next step - a suitable biocide... I'm looking for one that we can resell obviously, and came across AC Blue by a Scottish company that claims to be safe for drinking water & standing water ( Linky-linky )... all others I can find tend to either be specifically for ponds, or additives for paints or plastics...

Does anyone foresee a problem using AC Blue in conjunction with any of the above additives AND UV Reactive Dyes? (Mainly cos I know consumers will mix the three if all are available regardless of whether you SHOULD or not.... as we all know, any Dye starts life as a powder and eventually returns to a powder over time so detriments cooling performance significantly.... but ignoring that fact...)

BillA · 02-22-2005, 10:30 AM

probably lots of interest in this topic, I certainly am
I think Marci, you will find these additives to be 'anti-fungal' only in the sense of having a somewhat low pH, the low pH inhibits blah blah
but they do work

I investigated additives strictly as an algaecide, and there are many
but what I found was that they all will come out of solution leaving even more of the pesky white residue - but nothing was growing !

I think an essential requirement is that the algaecide go into solution and not precipitate, this may be difficult given the UNIVERSAL tendency to overuse

are we asking the right question: if the low pH inhibitors 'work', what are we looking for ?

Marci · 02-22-2005, 11:03 AM

Ah righty.... y'see that was what I was looking for... do they actually work as a biocide or not or was that just another of those "myths" we like to discuss and deface... I was unaware that a low pH did that.... however, looking around the net it's not exactly easy to find anyone who's done any testing of various solutions left in a position to be "infected"... ie: comparing them on antifungal properties in particular. Can find plenty comparing which one smells like piss the most, plenty comparing which ones inhibit corrosion the most (altho nearly all those I looked at were most definitely NOT mixed to the manufacturer's instructions and had their own inaccuracies in testing procedures anyways) but no clear conclusion on the biotic properties.

Would it be worth in your opinion obtaining some AC Blue and checking it out? Or would you say that current additives are satisfactory for the task at hand? Think that's the question.

Are the anti-fungal properties that current popular commercial / automotive additives provide satisfactory?

If the answer to the above is no, then should suitable "add-ons" be looked into and would they be beneficial....? Obviously if the answer to the above is yes then the answer to this is most obviously no.

Never had the equipment to test for presence of fungal growth or distinguish it from the white residue that all the additives have a tendency to generate.... however, now that we have a relatively pro chemist on our forums over at O-CuK I think I shall be having words on the matter and see what tests he would do to ascertain what the crack is...

And then comes the ultimate question - if the use of separate biocides should be investigated, how would one come up with the necessary controlled environment and variables to allow the testing to be relevant and useful?

Either way have 1litre of AC Blue on it's way. We've spoken to the manufacturer who states that it will reduce the thermal properties of water VERY marginally... it's mix ratio is 1ml of ACBlue to every 1 Litre of coolant (1:1000), and it's slightly blue in color and will slightly dye the water... will let u know when it arrives...

BillA · 02-22-2005, 11:29 AM

the kettle of fish is becoming a can of worms
testing an algaecide ?? oooh, not me thanks

but lets back up and better define the 'problem'
- is algae growth a problem ? where, and where not
as 'where not' is not a concern for now (assuming distilled water and an additive work),
- what are the conditions where it is a problem ?
tap water with no additives ? sorry, I will not be concerned with users that ignorant/stupid (why would they use an additive if they do not now ?)
tap water with additives ? is this a problem ?
-> should we be concerned with trying to make tap water acceptable ?
or state, as Swiftech does now, that distilled water should be used ?

Marci
state how you would define 'the problem' to be solved

blue = copper sulfate iinm

Risky · 02-22-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

the kettle of fish is becoming a can of worms
testing an algaecide ?? oooh, not me thanks

Yikes, do we need pesticide as well? Or is are the fish red herrings?

BillA · 02-22-2005, 11:43 AM

somthin gotta eat the algae, no ?

HaloJones · 02-22-2005, 11:51 AM

somethin gotta eat whatever eats the algae, no?

"God damn, how'd that blue whale get in my res?"

Risky · 02-22-2005, 12:48 PM

Actually my farming in-laws do have goldfish in the cattle-troughs to keep the algae down.

That said I'm not sure this has direct application to pc watercooling. Mind you I did look at a house with a river at the bottom of the garden the other day......

Butcher · 02-22-2005, 01:32 PM

Do the cattle not drink the fish?

BillA · 02-22-2005, 02:10 PM

strain 'em with their teeth

Cathar · 02-22-2005, 02:57 PM

Vodka is the answer. (hic)

JWFokker · 02-22-2005, 03:37 PM

Doesn't iodine work fine for our puposes?

I've also heard of using erythromycin capsules available in pet stores. One per fill is supposedly sufficient.

Etacovda · 02-22-2005, 03:45 PM

As a giggle I'm using an anti-aglae solution from our fishtank in our htpc loop at present - it gets pulled to bits quite frequently (low quality pump, no funds to upgrade) to clean/fix the pump, so anything with 'harsh' chemicals in it isnt wanted. I cant comment on how well its working (pure distilled water (1.1L) and about 10ml of the anti-algae stuff), as the loop has only been going for a month or so - no growth yet, though. If it starts growing, ill post back.

Butcher · 02-22-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

Vodka is the answer. (hic)

As always.

Cranky · 02-22-2005, 09:55 PM

but........what if ya like bourbon instead Cathar?

Cathar · 02-22-2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cranky

but........what if ya like bourbon instead Cathar?

What's the problem? Doesn't that just mean less angst is felt as you pour a bottle of vodka in the cooling loop?

bobkoure · 02-23-2005, 09:27 AM

Alcohol is a biocide, isn't it?. Ethanol makes better sense than methanol if there is going to be a chance of getting vapors into your living space.
Speaking as a non-chemist, of course.

BillA · 02-23-2005, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cranky

but........what if ya like bourbon instead Cathar?

ah, recycling
put a piece of burnt oak in the res

pHaestus · 02-23-2005, 10:14 AM

Bill I strongly suspect that the white deposits that some of us see with many additives are the result of having water temperatures in the 30-40C range. Water wetter and the like have silicates in them that precipitate out between 35 and 60C or so. Above that temperature the silicates exist mostly as polymers in solution. So for automobile coolants it wouldnt be an issue but in our systems it is. Incidentally silicate is what makes your skin feel so smooth if you bathe in hot springs.

Some additives use molybdnate instead of silica (purple ice I think?). It does the same thing.

Most good biocides I use in the lab are going to be bad for copper heh.

BillA · 02-23-2005, 10:22 AM

yea, I've been requested to test HydrX wrt precipatating after heating, need to get on it

Purple Ice has no silicates ? interesting
or did I misunderstand, molydnate comes out of solution also ?

pHaestus · 02-23-2005, 10:35 AM

molybdnate does the same thing (perhaps difft temperature range?). I am unsure whether purple ice also contains silicates or not.

If you've ever read a user's manual for a recirculating lab chiller then they warn not to use auto antifreeze with additives above 35C. They go on to warn that the additives will ppt out on the heating element and mess things up. Sounds familiar right?

I personally think propylene glycol is the additive to use in concert with an inline filter for setup. Propylene glycol can be poured down the toilet but works as well as ethylene glycol (traditional antifreeze) and will deal with any corrosion/mixed metal issues one may encounter. Then I suggest just plumbing the filter in instead of the wb for a day or two to catch any stray crap in the loop from filling, from the rad, whatever. After a day you can drain, collect the filtered water, plumb in wb, and go

pHaestus · 02-23-2005, 10:45 AM

Your questions about algae and fungi are spot on btw. Is there a problem when using distilled? I haven't ever experienced one with new parts.

BillA · 02-23-2005, 10:45 AM

and stev (Delphi) says emphatically NOT to use Dex-Cool in WCing systems
which btw requires a 50/50 mix
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antif...l-macs2001.htm

I see no benefit to propylene glycol any more so than ethylene glycol

pHaestus · 02-23-2005, 10:47 AM

environmental friendliness and no toxicity to children/pets are the benefits; not performance. But I worry about long term stability of anodized parts in my system a lot more than I worry about biologicals...

BillA · 02-23-2005, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Your questions about algae and fungi are spot on btw. Is there a problem when using distilled? I haven't ever experienced one with new parts.

could be a straw man, I asked Marci to more clearly state how he sees the 'problem'
we/Swiftech do not encounter algae problems using distilled water and 5% HydrX

the 'clouding' is something I would like to identify/resolve but is not related to any algae issue imo

02-22-2005, 09:18 AM	#1
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	Additives & Coolants Slap me if this has been covered, I will admit to not searching fully... but... I notice Asetek advertise their WaterChill additive as "Anti Algae"... however, I also suspect from what I read that it's just plain old Water Wetter rebottled... I dug a little deeper, and basically NONE of the additives thrown about in the watercooling world (well, the popular 3, Zerex Racing Super Coolant, WaterWetter, Purple Ice) actually contain ANY anti-fungal / algae / biocides whatsoever from what I can find... despite many people stating that they do, myself included in the past... Can anyone confirm the above?? I plan to send all 4 additives mentioned off to a lab for chemical analysis for comparison at some point anyways so that should answer the Asetek suspicions... Next step - a suitable biocide... I'm looking for one that we can resell obviously, and came across AC Blue by a Scottish company that claims to be safe for drinking water & standing water ( Linky-linky )... all others I can find tend to either be specifically for ponds, or additives for paints or plastics... Does anyone foresee a problem using AC Blue in conjunction with any of the above additives AND UV Reactive Dyes? (Mainly cos I know consumers will mix the three if all are available regardless of whether you SHOULD or not.... as we all know, any Dye starts life as a powder and eventually returns to a powder over time so detriments cooling performance significantly.... but ignoring that fact...)

02-22-2005, 11:03 AM	#3
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	Ah righty.... y'see that was what I was looking for... do they actually work as a biocide or not or was that just another of those "myths" we like to discuss and deface... I was unaware that a low pH did that.... however, looking around the net it's not exactly easy to find anyone who's done any testing of various solutions left in a position to be "infected"... ie: comparing them on antifungal properties in particular. Can find plenty comparing which one smells like piss the most, plenty comparing which ones inhibit corrosion the most (altho nearly all those I looked at were most definitely NOT mixed to the manufacturer's instructions and had their own inaccuracies in testing procedures anyways) but no clear conclusion on the biotic properties. Would it be worth in your opinion obtaining some AC Blue and checking it out? Or would you say that current additives are satisfactory for the task at hand? Think that's the question. Are the anti-fungal properties that current popular commercial / automotive additives provide satisfactory? If the answer to the above is no, then should suitable "add-ons" be looked into and would they be beneficial....? Obviously if the answer to the above is yes then the answer to this is most obviously no. Never had the equipment to test for presence of fungal growth or distinguish it from the white residue that all the additives have a tendency to generate.... however, now that we have a relatively pro chemist on our forums over at O-CuK I think I shall be having words on the matter and see what tests he would do to ascertain what the crack is... And then comes the ultimate question - if the use of separate biocides should be investigated, how would one come up with the necessary controlled environment and variables to allow the testing to be relevant and useful? Either way have 1litre of AC Blue on it's way. We've spoken to the manufacturer who states that it will reduce the thermal properties of water VERY marginally... it's mix ratio is 1ml of ACBlue to every 1 Litre of coolant (1:1000), and it's slightly blue in color and will slightly dye the water... will let u know when it arrives... Last edited by Marci; 02-22-2005 at 11:29 AM.

02-22-2005, 01:32 PM	#9
Butcher Thermophile Join Date: May 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,064	Do the cattle not drink the fish? __________________ Once upon a time, in a land far far away...

02-22-2005, 03:45 PM	#13
Etacovda Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dunedin NZ Posts: 735	As a giggle I'm using an anti-aglae solution from our fishtank in our htpc loop at present - it gets pulled to bits quite frequently (low quality pump, no funds to upgrade) to clean/fix the pump, so anything with 'harsh' chemicals in it isnt wanted. I cant comment on how well its working (pure distilled water (1.1L) and about 10ml of the anti-algae stuff), as the loop has only been going for a month or so - no growth yet, though. If it starts growing, ill post back. __________________ Hypocritical Signature I tried to delete: Procooling: where scientific principles are ignored because big corporations are immune to mistakes and oversights.

02-22-2005, 10:30 AM	#2
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	probably lots of interest in this topic, I certainly am I think Marci, you will find these additives to be 'anti-fungal' only in the sense of having a somewhat low pH, the low pH inhibits blah blah but they do work I investigated additives strictly as an algaecide, and there are many but what I found was that they all will come out of solution leaving even more of the pesky white residue - but nothing was growing ! I think an essential requirement is that the algaecide go into solution and not precipitate, this may be difficult given the UNIVERSAL tendency to overuse are we asking the right question: if the low pH inhibitors 'work', what are we looking for ?

02-22-2005, 11:29 AM	#4
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	the kettle of fish is becoming a can of worms testing an algaecide ?? oooh, not me thanks but lets back up and better define the 'problem' - is algae growth a problem ? where, and where not as 'where not' is not a concern for now (assuming distilled water and an additive work), - what are the conditions where it is a problem ? tap water with no additives ? sorry, I will not be concerned with users that ignorant/stupid (why would they use an additive if they do not now ?) tap water with additives ? is this a problem ? -> should we be concerned with trying to make tap water acceptable ? or state, as Swiftech does now, that distilled water should be used ? Marci state how you would define 'the problem' to be solved blue = copper sulfate iinm

02-22-2005, 11:43 AM	#6
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	somthin gotta eat the algae, no ?

02-22-2005, 11:51 AM	#7
HaloJones Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Moab Posts: 45	somethin gotta eat whatever eats the algae, no? "God damn, how'd that blue whale get in my res?"

02-22-2005, 12:48 PM	#8
Risky Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London Posts: 96	Actually my farming in-laws do have goldfish in the cattle-troughs to keep the algae down. That said I'm not sure this has direct application to pc watercooling. Mind you I did look at a house with a river at the bottom of the garden the other day......

02-22-2005, 02:10 PM	#10
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	strain 'em with their teeth

02-22-2005, 02:57 PM	#11
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Vodka is the answer. (hic)

02-22-2005, 03:37 PM	#12
JWFokker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 269	Doesn't iodine work fine for our puposes? I've also heard of using erythromycin capsules available in pet stores. One per fill is supposedly sufficient.

02-22-2005, 09:55 PM	#15
Cranky Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: texas Posts: 92	but........what if ya like bourbon instead Cathar?

02-23-2005, 09:27 AM	#17
bobkoure Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA - Boston area Posts: 798	Alcohol is a biocide, isn't it?. Ethanol makes better sense than methanol if there is going to be a chance of getting vapors into your living space. Speaking as a non-chemist, of course.

02-23-2005, 10:14 AM	#19
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Bill I strongly suspect that the white deposits that some of us see with many additives are the result of having water temperatures in the 30-40C range. Water wetter and the like have silicates in them that precipitate out between 35 and 60C or so. Above that temperature the silicates exist mostly as polymers in solution. So for automobile coolants it wouldnt be an issue but in our systems it is. Incidentally silicate is what makes your skin feel so smooth if you bathe in hot springs. Some additives use molybdnate instead of silica (purple ice I think?). It does the same thing. Most good biocides I use in the lab are going to be bad for copper heh.

02-23-2005, 10:22 AM	#20
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	yea, I've been requested to test HydrX wrt precipatating after heating, need to get on it Purple Ice has no silicates ? interesting or did I misunderstand, molydnate comes out of solution also ?

02-23-2005, 10:35 AM	#21
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	molybdnate does the same thing (perhaps difft temperature range?). I am unsure whether purple ice also contains silicates or not. If you've ever read a user's manual for a recirculating lab chiller then they warn not to use auto antifreeze with additives above 35C. They go on to warn that the additives will ppt out on the heating element and mess things up. Sounds familiar right? I personally think propylene glycol is the additive to use in concert with an inline filter for setup. Propylene glycol can be poured down the toilet but works as well as ethylene glycol (traditional antifreeze) and will deal with any corrosion/mixed metal issues one may encounter. Then I suggest just plumbing the filter in instead of the wb for a day or two to catch any stray crap in the loop from filling, from the rad, whatever. After a day you can drain, collect the filtered water, plumb in wb, and go

02-23-2005, 10:45 AM	#22
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Your questions about algae and fungi are spot on btw. Is there a problem when using distilled? I haven't ever experienced one with new parts.

02-23-2005, 10:47 AM	#24
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	environmental friendliness and no toxicity to children/pets are the benefits; not performance. But I worry about long term stability of anodized parts in my system a lot more than I worry about biologicals...

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)