Updated: Non Production CSP Pump's in consumers hands.

[Brians256]

Originally Posted by BillA

having difficulty reconciling posts 22 and 23

Me too. Post #22 was made before I started my reply, and people shouldn't think that they have anything to do with each other.

Dave, it sounds like there is a mfg problem in high return rate. Comment?

[Breach]

That certainly clears this in my mind.

It sounds like Dtek is more to blame than C-systems for the mixup of which units were meant for review and retail. I have no hard feelings toward C-Systems if that is the case. I have just had the break away units so I cant say if the true retail MAGs are what they are claimed to be.

Thanks for shedding light on this Dave, pm is sent.

[D-TEK]

Posted by Breach

It sounds like Dtek is more to blame than C-systems for the mixup of which units were meant for review and retail. I have no hard feelings toward C-Systems if that is the case

Unfortunately for them that is not the case just another excuse.

Everything is explained here.... http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...770#post152770

[Dave]

I openly admit we have no idea how the reviewer models would have lasted this long, they should not have. We designed the pumps with the thermo conductive potting compound from day one.

Brians we have had a VERY low return rate, less then 1%, the MAG's are doing very well in field, with the exception of the "ticking" sound reported.
For most it goes away, for a few it gets worse.

I have had 3 "ticking" pumps returned to date, two had damaged impellers, and one a damaged shaft. The shaft turned out to be a heat treating issue causing the material to be "soft". We changed to Tunsten shafts about 6 months back, as they do not require heat treating.

We also discovered, people can damage the bottom bearing if they dis-assemble the pump, and "drop" the impeller back in during assembly.
The magnetic force is strong and will pull the impeller down fast enough to slam into the bottom bearing, if not aligned, causing bearing damage.

We tried to figure out a way to fix this problem 100% with the MarkII, and could not. We changed the bottom mounting to allow more shock, and plan to add an re-assembly proceedure to the MarkII manual.

We understand that people need to take pumps apart to clean them, mostly newbee's of course, and "sealing" the units is not an option.

For the damaged impellers, we strenghten the impellers several months ago, and have had no re-occurance to date.
With the MarkII, the impellers have even more strengh, just in case. Given it was a new mold, I had the chance to overdesign.

As too damaged cords, we changed cord mounting about 8 months back, and it helped some. Do not think we can make the cords 100% damage proof. Believe it or not, I have many people admit they "carried" the pump around by the cord. The retail MAG with AL drive case is a heavy unit, the MarkII is all injected, and with less weight people will have a much harder time damaging the cords, even if they do carried the pump that way.

But I think we are way off track here?
Breach post pictures of a water damaged pump...... Alot of you jump on us.

We presented the fact production model MAG's can NOT be water damaged, and now this tread is going why off topic.

I admit this would be a MAJOR design problem, if is was so, but it is not the case.

[BillA]

again, the return rate is not the failure rate

what is being described (apart from the 'review' pump stuff) are/could be described as new product teething problems
- some mfgrs do this largely themselves with one or 2 users to control the 'impact' should problems arise
- other mfgrs use their customers to run the field trials

this is a choice made by the mfgr
this is why there is always much more risk in purchasing any new product because all mfgrs are going to claim that their product was tested and it is good

C-Systems/AVT have not managed their new product introductions well, and before these pumps are called 'good' some satisfactory usage of the 'final' design should be had
(not slamming you Dave, it is a management issue)

[Dave]

"C-Systems/AVT have not managed their new product introductions well"

Admitted.

We design pumps for industrial / OEM use, and where clearly given wrong info for CSP750 model.

However I believe the MAG is be a very good unit, with very low failure rate.
I get almost no email, and in most cases email is of the "can I" type.

The "soft" shafts showed up in OEM units, long before retail units, so there is some assitance in sharing OEM / retail components.

We have been OEM only company now for some time, and this is working very well. Our clients give us great feed back, and have a higher understanding of customers needs

Just wish we could convince more to offer there products to DIY guys. We make some very good other units that would also fit your needs, well.

[BillA]

you, the company, would have been better served by finding a competent partner to do the distribution; they would have given you good info
-> got to be able to listen which has been a problem
lots of errors
lots of egos too

one hell of a lot less product support with OEMs, and a better product 'fit' as well
-> can we "see" the pumps ? (understanding that they are not available)
I can probably answer my question: Why if they are not offered ?
seems a shame

[Dave]

Even so Bill,
Trails and good OEM relationship does not always mean 100% success.

Take Swift and Laing, testing and your input did not prevent a major problem from occuring with the DDC model?

Not a slam, just an example of problems that can occur with any companies production, anytime.

The MarkII is being developed with another companies involvement, not sure if it will ever have a "C-Systems" logo.

C-Systems parent company seems to have no interest in retail DIY liquid cooling market.

All these new pumps are coming from AVT's OEM clients, for which C-systems forwards.

C-Systems OEM clients are focused on retail consumer products, non of which have much too do with PC liquid cooling (except one- perhaps)



** Yes, I think I can show some renderings Bill, and links too products on market now.
Need to ask first **

[BillA]

spot on re the DDC problem occurance, very involved with the analysis; obviously not with the fix

if I had a good product the DIY market would be my last choice
(sorry guys, you are a pain for a mfgr)

[guandi]

Just a "me too" for an almost failed c-system's pump, it seems it was a "review model" although it was purchased from DangerDen's web shop. I got it for free from someone who couldnt afford to finish his system before he went out to Iraq and it ended up being used while i repaired a dropped eheim's cracked housing, during this time i noticed the tick and when the eheim went back in i took the mag to bits to cure it. I found a bit of corrosion, but i cleaned it up, filled the whole thing with Silicone sealant and its still running in another system after nearly 6 months. It just seems that reviewer models are getting into the end user supply chain somehow, maybe the review models should be branded in big red letters as such.

Edit for Laing fan-boy admitance.

[Joe]

There does need to be some question about this once you find out that "reviewer" models are being sold all over the place.

Either way I think this reflects quite baddly onthe company to make pumps known to be made in a way that could damage machines lose in the wild without some kind of CLEAR marking on them.

[ThyKingdomCome]

Question. Out of all the failures.. 5 on my part and the numerous ones that will crop up in forums. Are we now to assume they are all reviewer models?

Why would anyone make a reviewer model that had parts or contruction different than the sold unit? Knowing how many that were sold as compared to reviewed, I would logically think this number to be QUITE small.

[BillA]

TKC
did you send your's in to Dave ? (I'm hearing that only 'verified' failures are being counted)
I would assume nothing, but thats how I am

[Dave]

If in fact there are reviewer models "out there" with company logo's other then D-Tek or C-System, this is clearly my fault, and I will take responsiblity.

I was in charge of keeping track of these models, it was my idea to make them too begin with.

Joe is correct, they should have been clearly marked in some way.

[ThyKingdomCome]

Bill - I sent 3 of the 5 back. After paying postage for 3 units and seeing the others still failing, why waste the money on shipping? I just chalked it up to "lesson learned".

[BillA]

I kind of like Dave, but I sent off AVT some time back
too much spin

[csimon]

I have 2 dead Mags and 1 dead 750. I just can't bring myself to toss them into the garbage ...but honestly that's all they're worth. My new D-5 performs better than the 2 Mags ever did together or seperate whether parallel or serial.

[TaTs]

Same problem here, got 2 Mags, only one working. And that only after I got the impeller from the other one.
Don't go for these pumps, they are not worth it.
________
TaTs