I Must Agree With Gmat

[Miaumarramiau]

Hello people,

I've been waiting quite a lot of time to express myself about the war, and to support gmat by the way, which I'm very kind with his way of thinking.

I will tell no more about my oppinnion that I am against the war and well against our right-wing belicist Spanish president .

I just wanted to show you all, the main oppinion of the people here in Spain with a mail one friend sent me today that clearly represents what people think here.

Here it goes:

"For being conscient of what is going on... just remember and never forget that;
...
Ok, we still are horrorized because of the twin towers attack the 11th of September of 2001.
Now, keep ONE MINUTE of silence in tribute to each one of the 4000 Americans dead that morning, most of them civilians, cowardly assassinated by terrorists that we doubtly know how are realy them.

So that you're in silence, keep other THIRTEEN MINUTES in tribute to the 130000 deaths in the massive bombings made to the Irak's civil population ordered by Bush father.
Then remember that by that time, American people celebrated, as palestins suposedly did that 11th of September.

Now it's time for another 20 MINUTES more for those Iranian dead by the Iraqians with weapons and money provided to Sadam Hussein by the same Americans that now claim his death.

Other 15 MINUTES for the 150000 Russian and Afgane dead by the taliban regime, by the way with weapons and orders from the USA, who were trained (Bin Laden included among them) by the northamerican CIA, while the development of the Cold War.

10 MINUTES more for the 100000 Japanese people dead directly or indirectly in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well because of the action of the grand American Falcon.

If you kept all the silence, congratulations, You're been ONE HOUR in silence (1 minute for the american people and 59 for all their victims...)

Ok, then add aproximately ONE HOUR more for all the deaths in the war of Vietnam, which is not pleasant to be mentioned to the Americans...

But to all of this, add ONE DAILY HOUR more for all the victims, innocents and civilians dead and that will continue dying everyday in Palestine by the hands of judes with the approval of the americans...

And what about Panama? and Colomiba? and Cambodia?

I would like so be able to see that people can remember Bagdag's bombing by Bush father where 18000 people were killed and not 5000 like in the twin towers... or the killing in Sabra and Chatilla in Palestine.

Could anybody see it in the CNN??? Or in any TV channel around the world??? Anybody asked for INFINITE JUSTICE because all of that deaths??? Or LASTING JUSTICE??? OR EVEN WORSE... Anybody claimed revenge???

I hope American people could understand that the tragedies and atrocities they make are as terrible and unsocial as the others do. OR... DO they think the deaths of other countries have lees value and pain than theirs?

For sure, the 11th everybody around the world was seeing (in part because they could) the special reports on the TV about the WTC, crying and thinking about the innocent dead people; tributing families' victims.


Everybody can get their own conclusions. If you agree with this mail, just simply send it to everybody you know.

PD.- Bush was between the nominees to the nobel prize of the peace.

SAY NO TO THE WHIMS OF THE ONE THAT THINKS HE IS THE KING AND SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.

SAY NO TO WAR

DON'T COLABORATE WITH THIS BUSSINES, SAY ; NOT IN MY NAME, NOT TO WAR!

"

This is the most accurate translation I could make from the original text. Sorry for the mistakes.. I know my english is not the world's best.

Hope this post will make you think more, well over the nationalist propaganda teached in school since your childhood with the flag of your country in the top of all, and take your own conclusions (as here in Spain we do, and don't want anymore that president and his oppinions).

Regards, Francisco.

Ahhh and myself.... I am very bored to see that hispanos are seen as stupids in american movies.!!! but... we discovered your land... NEVER FORGET IT!

[gmat]

That was a bit harsh (and opinionated) but thank you.

[phreenet]

By now we all know of the first strikes last night. But it seems strange that some people aren't mentioning the events that came in over wire this morning.

A couple months ago, Saddam fooled nieve (sp?) world into believing he didn't have anymore WMD, including SCUDS. Apparently that made Chirac and all the other Saddam sympathizers (sp?) believe he was a changed man. This morning I wake up and I see on the news word that a Patriot PAC-3 missle tracked, intercepted, and shot down a SCUD missle inbound to Kuwait. No one will ever know the contents of that missle. One could speculate that it was loaded with Chemical, Biological, Nuclear, Traditonal Munitions, or it could have just been empty. But the facts are that Saddam has and will continue to have and continue to use these weapons reguardless of how effective you guys think those inspections would have been. Just to note the mineset of the Iraqi military, they also fired a low flying surface to ship, anti-ship weapon in the same direction. Those could not be shot down because they fly low. The missle went astray and crashed into the desert harming no one.

[gmat]

SCUDs are not WMDs. They're a vector for ammunition.
Since there was no fallout (from the same reports you cite) -> no chemical or nuclear contents.
Now if the US would have let the inspectors finish their job - we would be sure he had none left.
That's called circle reasoning.

[phreenet]

Ahhh and myself.... I am very bored to see that hispanos are seen as stupids in american movies.!!! but... we discovered your land... NEVER FORGET IT!

I guess the Spanish also imported the orginal American Indians as well too? Was that before or after they slaughtered all the people in South America?

So that you're in silence, keep other THIRTEEN MINUTES in tribute to the 130000 deaths in the massive bombings made to the Irak's civil population ordered by Bush father.
Then remember that by that time, American people celebrated, as palestins suposedly did that 11th of September.

I have yet to see these figures recoreded anywhere, has no merit. And Saddam perposly placed his troops and military in those locations. What about all the people that Saddam himself has ordered to their deaths and the people in Kuwait?

10 MINUTES more for the 100000 Japanese people dead directly or indirectly in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well because of the action of the grand American Falcon.

Far far less than the life loss on both sides if we had to invade the mainland for a surrender.

[phreenet]

SCUDs are not WMDs. They're a vector for ammunition.
Since there was no fallout (from the same reports you cite) -> no chemical or nuclear contents.
Now if the US would have let the inspectors finish their job - we would be sure he had none left.
That's called circle reasoning.

As defined by 1441 they are WMD. And furthermore, it is impossible to search a country the size of Iraq with only a few hundread inspectors, some of them quite possibly tipping off the Iraqis of future inspections. And all you have to do is keep your weapons mobile and you will never be able to find them. Weapons Inspections are compleatly useless. Months, Years, Decades? Is that what it takes to get something done? Saddam was told to cooperate, he refused.

[gmat]

Oh and by the way

Originally posted by phreenet

Chirac and all the other Saddam sympathizers (sp?) believe he was a changed man.

No one ever said that. That's *your* interpretation.
No one ever sympathized with Saddam. Telling the US that Bush made a mistake is NOT sympathing with anyone. It's just pointing a mistake at someone.
like: "hey guy don't poke at this wasp nest"
-"what ? are you sympathizing with the wasps ?"
bah.
For facists all is white or black. If you ever emit a slight doubt about 'white', then you're painted all black.
Hopefully some ppl in Spain and Portugal remember what facism is...

[gmat]

Originally posted by phreenet
Saddam was told to cooperate, he refused.

Thats not what was reported by people on the terrain.
And like it has been said before: the US prolly declared war last November. From that time, Saddam couldnt disarm completely.

[phreenet]

How long does it take to say, here are all those thousands of pounds, exuse me I will use kilograms, I wouldn't want that American Imperilist attitude placed on me. Here are all those thousands of kilograms of Chemical and Biological weaponary you were looking for. And he could have averted war if he was showing signs of cooperating, just by telling us that he still had them and where they were and that he would make efforts to start destroying it under UN supervision the USA would have backed down.

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by gmat
And like it has been said before: the US prolly declared war last November. From that time, Saddam couldnt disarm completely.

Exactly!

You can't disarm a country by threat of attack: it just doesn't work, and is an oxymoron. In fact, it could be argued that the US impeded the UN's efforts, by having troops parked just outside (but hey, maybe it pressed the issue too).

[gmat]

What BB2K said.

And:

Originally posted by phreenet
all you have to do is keep your weapons mobile and you will never be able to find them

The peace camp proposed a constant monitoring of Iraq territory by spy planes, to that very end (find mobile weapons). Iraq even agreed. There was a host of other measures to make sure nothing was left, without killing anyone. Everything was rejected by the US and prolly put down the drain by their 'war pumping' since 4 months.

(edit) if Saddam was clever, by now all leftovers of chemical weapons would be scattered around the world. Since the war is now official and declared, he won't refrain from using anything he has left.

(edit2) no one mentioned Putin and the China leader, who both asked (this morning) for an immediate cessation of hostile actions. The world is facing its worst crisis since the cold war.

[phreenet]

The peace camp proposed a constant monitoring of Iraq territory by spy planes, to that very end (find mobile weapons).

Then why was the last U2 reconissence mission canceled after the UN Security Team approved their flight. Iraq threated to shoot them down. I guess that is cooperating in another language I am unfamiliar with.

(edit) if Saddam was clever, by now all leftovers of chemical weapons would be scattered around the world. Since the war is now official and declared, he won't refrain from using anything he has left.

And thats a good thing? I wonder how much of the stuff is sitting in France right now? Some sleeper cell waiting to target the US Embasy there. A lot of French lives would be lost in an attack like that. So is it still ok?

[gmat]

Originally posted by phreenet
Then why was the last U2 reconissence mission canceled after the UN Security Team approved their flight. Iraq threated to shoot them down. I guess that is cooperating in another language I am unfamiliar with.

You always seem to forget the whole story. Iraq didn't want an US spy plane since troops were already parked in Koweit & ready to attack. They asked for an EU or Russian one.

Originally posted by phreenet

And thats a good thing? I wonder how much of the stuff is sitting in France right now? Some sleeper cell waiting to target the US Embasy there. A lot of French lives would be lost in an attack like that. So is it still ok?

If the peace had been preserved, nothing of this would be even considered...

(edit) i doubt Saddam is really clever anyway. He's old, megalomaniac, and overconfident (like many dictators).

[phreenet]

Why should we stop for China and Russia? What about Russia's little Iraq war eh? Chechnya (sp? I suck at it) No one ever complains about that. No one tries to step into Russia's business, why all the complaints from them about our war? And China, the country that just tries to sit there and act like they are immune to Saddam having those kinds of weapons. Why are they so intrested in the Iraq situation? They should be worring about N. Korea having weapons so close to their Capital and when N. Korea invades S. Korea again will China still want to stay idle?

[phreenet]

You always seem to forget the whole story. Iraq didn't want an US spy plane since troops were already parked in Koweit & ready to attack. They asked for an EU or Russian one.

But the UN said yes. So are you or are you not going to agree with the UN? Who cares what Saddam wants, its not his call.

[gmat]

Don't mix the issues.
The problem is: the two other superpowers say "NO - stop immediately".
Something's going wrong here.
Also. Chechnya is a major thorn in the side of Putin. Here in EU we have regular updates on the situation there. Don't think we (as in EU countries) even support the killing which took place there. EU council firmly condemned the actions of Russia in Chechnya (enough said, i won't dive into that side of the story).
But Putin is way more clever at diplomacy than Bush administration....

"But the UN said yes. So are you or are you not going to agree with the UN? Who cares what Saddam wants, its not his call."
It's called *diplomacy*. Each side must do some efforts. The UN was ready to discuss. The USA werent.

[phreenet]

This seems fitting

[bigben2k]

Actually, the U2 spy plane is extremely vulnerable, and is only still used today where it is safe, because it's cheaper to operate.

What is 1441? Googling...

[airspirit]

He had 12 years to dispose of this stuff. It doesn't take 12 years to get rid of it. That was practically all he had to do to get sanctions lifted, so is it our fault he still has sanctions against him? Since that was the requirement for us NOT invading and removing him in 1991, is it our fault that we're now fulfilling our obligations under the 1991 surrender agreement?

It's been 12 years. C'mon, people! You talk about four months, but we've been babysitting this guy for 12 years while his people are starved and tortured, and his military slowly rebuilds. He has never had any intention on doing what he said he was going to do, so why should we keep placating him? It is the US's money that funds it, so I suppose all you Europeans (except the Brits, who have also taken part in the containment effort) have no perspective into the BILLIONS we've already spent caging this guy.

12 years. Enough is enough.

There is no point debating the merits of this further, though, since it is happening as we speak. Some of you think we're right. Some of you don't. Fine. Lets leave it at that before we want to kill each other.

Gmat: I didn't direct that fsck you at you in that other thread: I directed it at foreign governments who have put their own self interests over fulfillment of their obligations. Since Iraq violated their agreements, it is the obligation of the US and the security council to act, but because of the selfish reasons of those nations, the UN was proved absolutely worthless, and the US/Brit/Spn/etc had to go it alone. While I find the attitude of some of those nation's citizens equally abhorrent, at least you have a reasonable argument for you case unlike most of the people out there who have no clue what they are actually protesting for or against, besides what a biased media outlet programmed them with, and for that, I respect your argument. I would never directly attack a fellow forum member like that. If I offended you, I apologize.

[phreenet]

But Putin is way more clever at diplomacy than Bush administration....

So Putin is a better killer than Bush you say? And we should listen to this guy eh? Clever, I agree, drop everything Putin is da man. He will show us how to wage war with Iraq under the Radar guns and shell the shit out of cities instead of tring to have tactics. Intresting insight

[gmat]

BB2K: resolution 1441 from the UN intimates Iraq to disarm from their WMDs.

Phreenet: it may be funny for some, but completely unrealistic even in current situation.
On the other hand, US residents all over the world will have to prepare for a wave of terrorism stirred by the war....

[phreenet]

Well, terrorist don't scare me. Fellow Americans and myself, and actually the WORLD, shouldn't roll over and die or go away because a bunch of crazies threaten our lives. In America we stand up for ourselves, we are taught this from birth. And I am a strong believer in not backing down to an enemy that just want to use scare tactics.

[gmat]

Originally posted by phreenet
So Putin is a better killer than Bush you say?

Nope. Didn't say that. Just that Putin managed to avoid a worlds crisis while commiting war crimes in Chechnya. The war crimes are not excusable in any way. His diplomacy is just better.
But each time i cite someone who's against war, you try to put him down for something which is not in relation with the problem at hand.... So for you, France + Germany + Russia + China aren't enough ? Please give a reason.

"terrorist don't scare me" -> remember the 9/11. That's how scary terrorism can be. You clearly show you live in a place which has never seen any form of terrorism...

(edit) Ah airspirit i didn't see your post. I accept your excuses. But admit that the rain of insults became a bit too much. Anyway like you said it's happening right now. Let's wait and see how it comes out at the end.

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by phreenet
As defined by 1441 they are WMD. And furthermore, it is impossible to search a country the size of Iraq with only a few hundread inspectors, some of them quite possibly tipping off the Iraqis of future inspections. And all you have to do is keep your weapons mobile and you will never be able to find them. Weapons Inspections are compleatly useless. Months, Years, Decades? Is that what it takes to get something done? Saddam was told to cooperate, he refused.

Us officials disagree: "A senior U.S. official told NBC’s Robert Windrem that the rockets, in all likelihood, were Al Samoud I missiles, which have a range of up to 90 miles. "

found here

As for disarming not needing to take 12 months, that's physically correct, but there's a larger issue here.

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by gmat
"terrorist don't scare me" -> remember the 9/11. That's how scary terrorism can be. You clearly show you live in a place which has never seen any form of terrorism...

And that is a huge factor in the opinion that US citizens have. Many, many other countries are choosing their position entirely or partly on the possibility of retaliation, heck even Australia is afraid of retaliation! Turkey just doesn't want to be overrun, being at Iraq's northern border.

I would highly recommend a trip to Europe, to see and feel how terrorism is a daily thing. UK, France, Israel, Germany, just pick one, anyone.