m4 / car15 rifle

[PlawsWorth]

I have looked at links such as http://www.gunkits.com/rifles.html and others. Is this real full automatic rifles that civilians can buy? Is there anyway for non-us citizens to buy rifles in usa?

[ymboc]

I took a look at the page... They didnt state anywhere on the page that they were automatic so I figure they're likely just 'single shot' caribines.

There's a whole bunch of technical/legal issues regarding the assault rifle ban of 1994 (regarding pre/post ban rifles)... frankly I dont know much past what I've read on the internet so while I could comment, I dont think I'm really qualified to do so... but you might want to take a look at this page which was just a quick google away.

Further information regarding can be found in this faq from the same site as the last one..

[mrmoustache]

you need a class 3 liscense to buy automatic firearms.

and no, you can't get a class 3 liscense.

[Blackeagle]

All of the kits you linked to are only part of the rifle. The kits include barrel, upper reciever, forarm and a few other options.

They do not include the lower reciever (trigger group) & rear stock.

Fully automatic weapons are VERY hard to buy/own here. To do so requires a very special federal license that costs hundreds of dollars and you only get one after passing a extensive background check. I don't think a person not living here can get clearance to purchase fully autos. But I could be wrong.

While I'm a gun owner myself and have several, I like the fact that it's very hard to buy/own fully automatic weapons. There is no real good reason, and no real need for them. I target shoot & hunt & they have no place being used for those hobbies.

[mrmoustache]

while i'm not a big fan of it not being possible for me to buy an old junker car and a fully automatic rifle and just go crazy on it the pros of no one having automatic weapons definately dwarf the cons.

[ymboc]

Originally posted by Blackeagle
They do not include the lower reciever (trigger group) & rear stock.

Hmmm? Are you sure about that? While the site PlawsWorth linked also advertises kits that dont include the lower recievers... I think the rifles on the specific page he linked did...

the page he referenced mentions the following features...
"ASA Forged Upper and Lower receiver"
"2 Stage Match Trigger, hand tuned to 3 to 3.5 pounds"
"ASA Exclusive Non-Collapsible Stock"

[bigben2k]

Many semis can be modified to become full autos. It's getting harder to find, but that's the technicality that vendors have found around the ban. Just don't get caught with one.

The logic behind the NRA is based on the US constitution under which it states that every citizen has the right to bear arms, and the spirit of that amendment was to permit a government sanctionned self-defense of the homeland.

Personally, I don't believe that the US is under any such threat and if it was, I'm certain that it would be far better to recruit or draft people into a trained armed force, rather than the very old fashioned, and massively ineffective popular uprising. Pitchforks come to mind...

As Blackeagle so rightfully reminds us, it's not good sportsmanship to use such a weapon anyways.

The 1994 ban is coming up for renewal, and it appears that President Bush supports it, to the NRA's greatest surprise, being one of his top supporters, so they plan to vigorously oppose it.:shrug:

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by bigben2k
...

The logic behind the NRA is based on the US constitution under which it states that every citizen has the right to bear arms, and the spirit of that amendment was to permit a government sanctionned self-defense of the homeland.

...

Not wanting to start a political fight here :evillaugh: , but I believe it states in the Federalist Papers, and endorsed by Thomas Jefferson, that the right to bear arms is as much a defense against a tyrannical government as against any foreign foe. Given that, I believe it is wrong for the government to ban law-abiding citizens from owning automatic weapons.

Bob

[Tar Man]

I have a feeling the gun laws in Sweden are quite strict, PlawsWorth. Found this:

- Be 18 or older.
- Perform a shooting test within a calendar year Jan 1 - Dec 31.
- Be a member of a shooting club for at least 6 months.
- Not have a criminal record.

from here: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Laws/sweden

Not many countries in the world allow civilians to purchase Full Auto guns. Here in New Zealand, the most deadly type of gun is an MSSA or Military Style Semi-Automatic. So you can buy an AK 47, but it'll modified to be single shot only. Liscencing for this class is very hard and expensive though.

I know in Australia some hunters on contract from the government are allowed to posses Full Auto guns for the culling of Kangaroos.

Often police forces require you to obtain written permission before allowing the import of a fire arm or related objects.

[ymboc]

Originally posted by bigben2k
The 1994 ban is coming up for renewal, and it appears that President Bush supports it, to the NRA's greatest surprise, being one of his top supporters, so they plan to vigorously oppose it.:shrug:

Speaking of which... It looks as though they're planning on *significantly* expanding the 1994 ban...

You can read the NRA ILA 's FAQ on the bill here:
http://www.nraila.org/FactSheets.asp...=Detail&ID=143

Link to Bill HR2038 Text:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.2038:

It's actually pretty nasty... you should read it... They want to Permanently ban anything that was ever designed with military or police use in mind (including any of their non-full auto derivatives). So all the guns that were modified or manufactured specifically to comply to the 1994 rules would be banned by this bill in its current state

[sn1per]

reverse the sear...most of the rifles will be either lower caliber, or not come with a sear at all...if it does come with a sear...well guess what...you can make it fully auto..and fully auto only, unless you can make a switching mechanism that will control the sear action...and yes you can get a class 3, or a super ffl as it is referred to...i have one, but the reason is good...you have to know someone high up, and local police don't count...i was a gunner's mate in the navy for 11 years (still am actually, reserves), and worked with SBU2 in VA (seal team transportation more or less)....

oh..about the sear trick...99% of the time, you can take the semi-auto sear, get out the dremel, and make it fully auto in about 5 minutes...and you can do this with almost any gun, even a trusty ol' semi auto pistol...search for fully auto sears or something to that effect on google, and you will find many how-to's for particular combos...

im a gun owner, as if you couldn't tell, and getting guns is a hell of a lot easier then you think...the laws we have now are ok..but they still don't stop the guns getting in the wrong hands...bad thing about our gun laws, they hurt gun owners and gun sales more then they do the bad guys...

[punish3r]

Mr Moustache, you CAN get a Class 3 ATF license, but it's nearly impossible as an individual. Easiest way around it is to file a business license for a corporation, then have the corporation get the Class 3 license. Anyway...
As far as the 'lower reciever' questions, the majority of these sellers sell without, expecting you to go out, buy a standard semi-auto reciever, and put in a new sear pin to make it fully automatic. While remaining an illegal weapon, you are now the proud owner of a fully automatic assault rifle. Why you would want this is beyond me, seeing as how the majority of sear pin manufacturers do not adhere to original specs, and require a heavy duty firing pin and spring. In short, a 'standard' MI AR15 will put out around 400-600 rounds/min cyclic, and these 'homebrew' AR15's will put out around 700-1000 rounds/min cyclic. Why is less better? Imagine emptying a 20 round clip in 1.4 seconds with any accuracy. That's not to say the the original spec of 3.2 seconds/clip is much better, but al least you can hold it somewhat steady.

Another interesting side note, the M16A2's used by the army right now don't even have a full auto setting. only single shot and 3-round burst. Full autos are for jerkoff rednecks who shoot pop cans and street signs, and will probably die in a 'self-inflicted gun related injury' Ahem. At least, that's my opinion

[winewood]

Not wanting to start a political fight here :evillaugh: , but I believe it states in the Federalist Papers, and endorsed by Thomas Jefferson, that the right to bear arms is as much a defense against a tyrannical government as against any foreign foe. Given that, I believe it is wrong for the government to ban law-abiding citizens from owning automatic weapons. -Bob

The Federalist papers do state that, and if you cant defend yourself with a comperable weapon, then you are going to have to remove the right to bear arms as well. The anti gun people who forsee nothing cept defending against toxic emmissions do not realise the premise in which this nation was formed nor free. They are vastly ill-informed.

I would recommend the CAR-15 or M4. Wonderful shooting guns. If they include everything, get them quickly. .223 ammo is cheap, buy a case of it at military surplus. You will go through alot of it!

[iroc409]

they want to ban a "barrel shroud". now what, pray tell, does this have ANYTHING to do with crime, whatsoever? so, some dude puts a shroud on his guage 'cause it looks cool, and it's illegal.


if this passes, there will be war.

[msv]

Originally posted by Tar Man
I have a feeling the gun laws in Sweden are quite strict, PlawsWorth. Found this:

- Be 18 or older.
- Perform a shooting test within a calendar year Jan 1 - Dec 31.
- Be a member of a shooting club for at least 6 months.
- Not have a criminal record.

True, I´ve passed those tests and got miself a target gun. Getting anything bigger than a .22 rimfire requires serious active target shooting, frequent competing etc. If You don´t prove on a regular basis that You use the gun for target shooting *and nothing else* You´re supposed to get rid of it (as in "selling to another target shooter"). I´m not confident with the rules for handgun hunting in Sweden, but I think it´s restricted to single shots.
What do this have to do with computer cooling and overclocking?
regards
Mikael S.

[iroc409]

Originally posted by msv
True, I´ve passed those tests and got miself a target gun. Getting anything bigger than a .22 rimfire requires serious active target shooting, frequent competing etc. If You don´t prove on a regular basis that You use the gun for target shooting *and nothing else* You´re supposed to get rid of it (as in "selling to another target shooter"). I´m not confident with the rules for handgun hunting in Sweden, but I think it´s restricted to single shots.
What do this have to do with computer cooling and overclocking?
regards
Mikael S.

with the current trends in our government, you may not be able to overclock your computer in the future. but that will be the least of your concerns.

anyone familiar with the super dmca?

[msv]

Dropping the political debate, going back to computers.
regards
Mikael S.

[iroc409]

Originally posted by msv
Dropping the political debate, going back to computers.
regards
Mikael S.

party pooper.

[ymboc]

Originally posted by iroc409
they want to ban a "barrel shroud". now what, pray tell, does this have ANYTHING to do with crime, whatsoever? so, some dude puts a shroud on his guage 'cause it looks cool, and it's illegal.

if this passes, there will be war.

Relax, you're safe with the barrel shroud on a shotgun...

If you re-read it you'll find that the barrel shroud (banned) feature only applies to semiautomatic pistols and rifles

It seems as though you're screwed If you have just about anything else though...

[ymboc]

Surprised by the lack of reaction to the HR2038 bill, I'm going to quote the key points of the NRA ILA HR2038 Faq That being said you may want to keep in mind where the faq is coming from and the potential for bias.

H.R. 2038, introduced by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), does not just "reenact" or "reauthorize" the 1994 Clinton ban, the so-called "assault weapon" law. It bans millions more guns. And it begins backdoor registration of guns... There is no 10-year sunset provision in the bill. H.R. 2038 permanently bans every gun that is currently banned and, with numerous, overlapping provisions:

• Bans every gun made to comply with the Clinton ban...
• Bans guns exempted by name or type under the Clinton ban...
• Bans all semi-automatic shotguns...
• Bans all detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles...
• Bans target shooting rifles...
• Bans guns for self-defense...
• Bans 65 named guns (the Clinton law bans 19)...
• Bans selling a legally-owned "assault weapon" with a magazine of over 10 rounds capacity...
• Bans guns rarely used in crime...
• Begins backdoor registration...

Forunately this doesnt apply to me since I live in canada. Mind you, I'm actually for certain parts of the bill... however it does concern me because if it passes, the US will put pressure on canada to introduce legistlation of similar scope and breadth. Basically, you know its bad when its 'worse' (ie: larger in scope) than our gun control laws here in canada -- which I am for the most part pleased with.

[msv]

Originally posted by iroc409
party pooper.

regards
Mikael S.

[iroc409]

Originally posted by ymboc

read the contents of the bill. i'd say that the nra stretched very little of the document.

if you are content in canada with highly restrictive gun laws and the like, that's fine. be happy and enjoy! but, this country was founded on the rights and freedoms of the individual, and those included protection of self by means of firearms. that also included protection of these rights by means of firearms from tyranny. every little bit that's chipped away removes more of our constitutional rights, and our ability to fight back if the need arises. how should a bunch of citizens fight a government with a bunch of bolt-action .22's?

with their infringement already on all of our rights, it's coming a lot more closer to this point than i think a lot of people would realize. tell me really, with the things that are getting passed, and the things that are trying to get passed, how are we really much better off than a dictatorship? this is getting to be a lot like a relationship. you THINK you have freedom, your own power, and privacy, when really you have nothing. the woman has it all.

as far as the barrel shroud thing, the section i read didn't necessarily seem to target specifically semi-auto shotguns, but i guess i'm just skeptical about lawmakers. i don't speak "politician".

[ymboc]

woah there... a few things...

I personally do not believe there is very much bias in the NRA ILA faq I linked. I merely stated that there is *potential* for bias because the document is from the NRA - a gun lobbyist group.

Secondly I dont like the bill. The only part I think isnt so bad is the registration. While I do think they're a waste of money (they certainly are in canada - our gun registry program is costing millions) but I dont think its really that intrusive.

I do find their obsession with 'pistol grips' ridiculous. They were just a step in the evolution of firearm design. Why are they banning progress?

Also, I dont see why the 'civilian' versions of guns designed for military use should be banned. Controled? Fine. Banned? Hell no.
I mean they're talking about banning the M1A; a perfectly fine almost passive looking semi-auto rifle.

I am bothered by this bill and hope it doesnt pass. Frankly I dont see how it can - its just too much. If the US government can get away with passing something like this, the canadian goverment will surely try to pull something similar. I'm sure that neither of us want our countries turning into any more of a police state than they already are.

[bigben2k]

Being from Canada, and now living in the US, I think, gives me a different perspective.

Back home, having a gun is just rare: no one really, really wants one, and I guess they don't see the need. However, I had a few friends that had shotguns, rifles, and pistols. All were registered. I even knew a guy that got his license through his stint in the army, so he had an unusual weapon, but I don't remember which.

Here in the US, I have a hard time finding someone that doesn't have a gun in their house! Maybe it's a Texan thing, I dunno.

In the first few months I was here, there was a man that was arrested, for assaulting someone at the local hospital, yielding a semi-automatic rifle. I only read about it in the papers, but what hit me the most, is that it was almost inconceivable that someone would do that in Canada.

Since then, I've seen many reports of police officers being shot, to a terminal end, just in the Houston area!

I've never taken the time to compare crime statistics between Montreal, Quebec, and Houston, Texas, but it seems clear to me that the proliferation of weapons has had a significant impact here. Last I checked, Houston has an average crime rate, in this nation.

Then again, maybe it's just the brighter sun here, that's driving people crazy :shrug:

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by bigben2k
Being from Canada, and now living in the US, I think, gives me a different perspective.

...

I've never taken the time to compare crime statistics between Montreal, Quebec, and Houston, Texas, but it seems clear to me that the proliferation of weapons has had a significant impact here. Last I checked, Houston has an average crime rate, in this nation.

Then again, maybe it's just the brighter sun here, that's driving people crazy :shrug:

It may also be due to the relatively homogeneous makeup of Canadian society (esp. French-Canadian). American society is a mixing bowl of numerous cultures which don't always mix well. It is the price society pays for the dynamism we have here in America. While I am sure the presence of guns is a factor, it is not the root cause.

To illustrate, compare Switzerland, which is among the most heavily armed of all countries yet has one of the lowest rates of gun violence, to the United States. What is the difference btwn. the two societies?

Bob