US vs German systems - advantages/disadvantages?

[trit187]

how about we do both, pug gets you the block and you can test that, and in the mean time the kit test can be worked out... sound feasable?

[nightic]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I will either test a wb or I will test a complete kit (only kits currently offered to consumers as an all in one package).

Limiting the scope to 'kits' may lose some of the validity in particular on the side of the US-system champions who heavily prefer hand-picking parts.

However, if it is to be a kit, I think nothing less serious than the recent Swiftech 22600 using the new MCW6000/6002 block should be considered.

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Presumably a kit is engineered to optimize the tradeoffs in size, flow, cost, noise, and performance.

Whilst that is partially true, it would seem that most (all?) "currently offered" kits are compromised in one aspect or another, most likely due to the lack of regular sourcing/OEM deals of specific parts.
The above Swiftech kit does look to be the least compromised of the 3/8"+ kits on the market though.

[Pug]

Have no problem with a kit - just don't want to see it up against quad cores & a ship's bilge pump, y'know?

As for twin 80s... hardly performance oriented, eh BillA?... (sorry, old joke)

Happy to keep thrashing this out until we find a fair platform.

[pHaestus]

It seems to make sense to me to have 4 distinct categories when evaluating a kit:

1) Ease of use (entry level =no modification to case is necessary for installation; emphasis given here on "fool proof"; typical means a few fan holes; advanced means some CNC req'd)
2) Quality of mfg (Goop? Leaks? Cobbled together in basement or absolutely stunning?)
3) Performance (lowest CPU temp wins)
4) Quiet (lowest noise levels win)

No kit would have perfect marks in all 4; can't be small and silent and cool...

BTW I am going to delete all car posts in this thread in 3...2...1

[BillA]

Pug
gonna have to ignore the clutter for the moment

wb & pump eh ?
well, with a given wb, pump, and rad there WILL be a single flow rate
-> do you know what the actual flow rate is in your system ?
if not, why not ? (j/k)

so then all one needs to do is look at that point on the curve, no ?
why are we making this so complex ?

if its a kit 'shoot out', fine
Swiftech will have to hold for a couple of weeks, new kit options coming - but even so a shoot out win is unlikely as we do not offer so large a rad in a kit
(and I must admit that the Swiftech kits are NOT oriented to maximum performance, maximum installation convenience is the clear goal)

Pug, a 'kit' as being defined here is a package of a complete WCing system with instructions

pHaestus
concur with your groupings, permits a user to measure by Their yardstick

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by Pug

Okay, how's this. To keep testing from getting too complicated and also to stick to the original theme of the thread (what's left of it), what say we offer our block, fittings, hose and molex feed pump against yours?
Same rad & fans to keep the comparison on a level playing field...

Sound better?

[Edit] I stand by the BIX2 choice as easiest to get comparitive results and allow both sides to test & correlate the results of their own tests as a backup check.

I think thats a great idea. It is the pumps and the blocks that seem to differentiate us.

Hey, since the Canadians are in North America, and have baseball and basketball teams, play tons'o hockey, and drag race...all with us Northern Mexicans, perhaps they should be counted in the USA philosophy school. In that case, can we use C-Systems pumps? And if so, how many are we limited to, because you can plug'em in in series, and I don't know how many you can effectively do that with. (It would be a fun experiment though)

[nightic]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

It seems to make sense to me to have 4 distinct categories when evaluating a kit:

1) Ease of use (entry level =no modification to case is necessary for installation; emphasis given here on "fool proof"; typical means a few fan holes; advanced means some CNC req'd)
2) Quality of mfg (Goop? Leaks? Cobbled together in basement or absolutely stunning?)
3) Performance (lowest CPU temp wins)
4) Quiet (lowest noise levels win)

I think you should also consider performance when mix-and-matched.

A kit that performs better under the same conditions with an 'opposing philosophy' part in the loop is IMO not an exemplar of good design.
Although with the high likelyhood of compromise amongst most kits available, this may be acceptable.

Originally Posted by unregistered

and I must admit that the Swiftech kits are NOT oriented to maximum performance, maximum installation convenience is the clear goal

It's very possible that the German kits share that goal to an extent.

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by nightic

It's very likely that the German kits share that goal to an extent.

Are we talking about premade kits or DIY kits? Of course a premade kit, ala Koolance or Swiftech or Corsair (I think is one?) are made to be minimal effort. Most of the effort in setting up a watercooling setup is doing something with the radiator, what these do is already have a box for the radiator that you set next to/on top of your computer. Other than that you cant really make it any easier than hooking up hoses and attaching a block.

[nightic]

Originally Posted by kronchev

Are we talking about premade kits or DIY kits? Of course a premade kit, ala Koolance or Swiftech or Corsair (I think is one?) are made to be minimal effort. Most of the effort in setting up a watercooling setup is doing something with the radiator, what these do is already have a box for the radiator that you set next to/on top of your computer. Other than that you cant really make it any easier than hooking up hoses and attaching a block.

I think we've accepted "kit" in this context as meaning a bundled group of parts that would otherwise be available seperately rather than a pre-made solution.

[pHaestus]

This is really only worthwhile if we can get some of the big European mfgrs to submit complete kits. If so I think it would be really interesting for those of us in North America to get a chance to see how our Teutonic wc brethren have been developing.

As an aside, I remember why I never bothered to moderate the forums; that took a lot of effort to clean up! Car guys and politics guys please start new threads.

[nightic]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

This is really only worthwhile if we can get some of the big European mfgrs to submit complete kits. If so I think it would be really interesting for those of us in North America to get a chance to see how our Teutonic wc brethren have been developing.

An assortment from Pug (cheeky, moi?) would be a very good start.
His Wizard Designs outfit represents some of the more popular picks amongst the Teutonic community.

[kronchev]

I'd be willing to play with a Alpha 1.0 if I can get one cheap...always wanted a SHD block. how much shipping to US is expected?

/edit: seems to be £3.99. these are 1/4 i'm guessing....let me sleep on it

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

This is really only worthwhile if we can get some of the big European mfgrs to submit complete kits. If so I think it would be really interesting for those of us in North America to get a chance to see how our Teutonic wc brethren have been developing.

As an aside, I remember why I never bothered to moderate the forums; that took a lot of effort to clean up! Car guys and politics guys please start new threads.

I was just using cars as an analogy, and it kind of got out of control...DOH!

[pHaestus]

Maybe Asetek would pony up a kit too. This could work out very well: I'll test out the wbs as well on my testbed and then we can just have Procooling giveaways

[kronchev]

what I'd want to do with it is cool my socket 7 server...but thinking about it I dont think itd even fit on the socket (no clearance). so maybe I can convince my friend to do it, since I'm hooking him up with watercooling. If I can get it all for $100 I'll definitly use his system as a test

[BalefireX]

Question: The idea of a price limit (£200) has been raised - do we take into account the incredibly high premium Europeans pay for the same equipment?
For example, the MCW50 block is $38.95 at Swiftech's online store for US customers, with no tax for non-CA residents, but the same block is £28.93 before VAT (or £33.99 after VAT) in the UK - at today's rates, thats $52.45 before VAT and $61.63 after!

Do we therefore reduce the amt. that a US kit can cost to reflect this 35-58% premium? If so, by how much?

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by BalefireX

Question: The idea of a price limit (£200) has been raised - do we take into account the incredibly high premium Europeans pay for the same equipment?
For example, the MCW50 block is $38.95 at Swiftech's online store for US customers, with no tax for non-CA residents, but the same block is £28.93 before VAT (or £33.99 after VAT) in the UK - at today's rates, thats $52.45 before VAT and $61.63 after!

Do we therefore reduce the amt. that a US kit can cost to reflect this 35-58% premium? If so, by how much?

A price limit is a good idea but as for accounting for the preminum, we shouldnt do that. Its pretty much "you have x value to work with , what can you get with each methodolgy". at least thats what I think

I do notice that stuff is REALLY EXPENSIVE. I'm not going to be able to do this for under 150 US

[pHaestus]

well I didn't include price as one of my 4 prime criteria because it's so subjective. An Innovatek kit is $300US at www.highspeedpc.com how does that compare w/ price in Europe?

[nightic]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

well I didn't include price as one of my 4 prime criteria because it's so subjective. An Innovatek kit is $300US at www.highspeedpc.com how does that compare w/ price in Europe?

It depends on the particular kit.
Have a look here for a selection:

Innovatek kits

[BalefireX]

The Innovatek XXS kit is €239 at Innovatek's online shop, which at today's rate is $289.50 - so pretty much the same price in Europe as in the US.

The US ripping off Europe goes for pretty much all computer hardware - for example, a Dell 2001FP 20.1" LCD is £844 after VAT in the UK, or $1515 - when I bought my 2001FPs in the States they were $750 each - half the price.

[BillA]

"The US ripping off Europe goes for pretty much all computer hardware . . . . "
wtf
the US is responsible for EU taxation ?

[Pug]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

It seems to make sense to me to have 4 distinct categories when evaluating a kit:

1) Ease of use (entry level =no modification to case is necessary for installation; emphasis given here on "fool proof"; typical means a few fan holes; advanced means some CNC req'd)
2) Quality of mfg (Goop? Leaks? Cobbled together in basement or absolutely stunning?)
3) Performance (lowest CPU temp wins)
4) Quiet (lowest noise levels win)

No kit would have perfect marks in all 4; can't be small and silent and cool...

BTW I am going to delete all car posts in this thread in 3...2...1

Good points pHaestus. Acknowledge 'em all.
I think we score fairly highly in most categories there if that's the design brief.
I can drop to a single 120mm rad now that cases with 120mm mounts as standard are becoming more commonplace but if people wanted to see a more direct comparison - we could easily make a kit using twin 80mms (unless Swiftech's forthcoming kit just happens to include a 120).

Thanks for the moderation. It's appreciated.

Originally Posted by unregistered

Pug
gonna have to ignore the clutter for the moment

wb & pump eh ?
well, with a given wb, pump, and rad there WILL be a single flow rate
-> do you know what the actual flow rate is in your system ?
if not, why not ? (j/k)

so then all one needs to do is look at that point on the curve, no ?
why are we making this so complex ?

if its a kit 'shoot out', fine
Swiftech will have to hold for a couple of weeks, new kit options coming - but even so a shoot out win is unlikely as we do not offer so large a rad in a kit
(and I must admit that the Swiftech kits are NOT oriented to maximum performance, maximum installation convenience is the clear goal)

Pug, a 'kit' as being defined here is a package of a complete WCing system with instructions

pHaestus
concur with your groupings, permits a user to measure by Their yardstick

BillA - off the top of my head, I don't know. I can get the info within 24 hours if it were needed but I don't think it is.
Why not? I'm not the design team, that's why. You can think of me as a salesman with a passion if it makes it easier...

All the parts I'm offering are available as a kit or separately. Hell, we'll even be selling parts of the block so that existing users of our products can upgrade their old blocks (if they bought the right ones)
We can wait that couple of weeks... I have to get the kit from Germany & forward it to the US. No problem.
What's your biggest rad(s) likely to be? I'm quite flexible you know.

(and I must admit that the Swiftech kits are NOT oriented to maximum performance, maximum installation convenience is the clear goal)

The kit I propose is all about max convenience & performance.

I concur with your definition of a 'kit'.

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

I think thats a great idea. It is the pumps and the blocks that seem to differentiate us.

Pretty much my point but as mentioned, I'm quite flexible.

can we use C-Systems pumps? And if so, how many are we limited to, because you can plug'em in in series

Sure. As many as we are allowed, eh?

Originally Posted by nightic

It's very possible that the German kits share that goal to an extent.

Most definitely.

Originally Posted by pH

This is really only worthwhile if we can get some of the big European mfgrs to submit complete kits. If so I think it would be really interesting for those of us in North America to get a chance to see how our Teutonic wc brethren have been developing.

Oh I don't know... trust me, I think it'll be worthwhile...
I don't think we'd need to send more than the kit I have in mind. Maybe if initial tests prove inconclusive...

(thanks for the props nightic )

Originally Posted by pH

well I didn't include price as one of my 4 prime criteria because it's so subjective.

This is very true. Perhaps it's best to forget I mentioned it (but in the UK, for what you'd be getting in the kit, it's a very good price ).

[BalefireX]

No, obviously not - not trying to insinuate that its the US or "greedy US manufacturers" at fault (although some manufacturers do charge more in countries that can afford more, like Microsoft and Dell) but merely trying to point out the disparity between the costs for identical parts - my wording was rash, however.

[nightic]

Originally Posted by unregistered

"The US ripping off Europe goes for pretty much all computer hardware . . . . "
wtf
the US is responsible for EU taxation ?

That wouldn't be the case in this instance.

No manner of taxes would account for that level of price inflation on an electrical item.

Dell simply charges that amount over here because we're all idiots and don't mind paying :shrug:

Further reading:

Inq

[BillA]

well, uninformed buyers are needed too,
else all the business would be at one spot
j/k