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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 03-26-2005, 10:29 PM   #176
slicey
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i read all this talk about noise control, along with pictures of ext. radiator boxes that have fans and cores mounted on exterior walls. come on guys! "think outside the bun" for once. i want the performance/low noise solution most everyone here wants. only i'm doing something you guys can't seem to figure out, maybe not even Cathar. there's lots of info on ducted airflow systems that deal with low noise and other issues. my external W/C box is like nothing i've seen in forums. let's just say you can't see the fans or the core unless you open up the enclosure. i found lots of info-this should get you started. BTW, i've never put links in my SO few posts and have no idea if these are going to work.

http://www.vent-axia.com/sharing/ductingair.asp

http://www.nidec.com/aircooling/ap.htm


start GOOGLING!
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Unread 03-26-2005, 11:50 PM   #177
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Ducting air can be very effective at managing airflow/noise/heat dissipation. The problem lies in the fact that most ducting is unique to each case and radiator placement within the case. Cath's goal was build a radiator optimized for any placement within a case with certain perameters regarding noise and heat dissipation.

edit: you have a point though, slicey. When properly implemented, ducting can provide high airflow with minimal noise (think of the a/c system in a house). The problem lies in mass integration.
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Unread 03-27-2005, 01:21 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicey
i read all this talk about noise control, along with pictures of ext. radiator boxes that have fans and cores mounted on exterior walls. come on guys! "think outside the bun" for once. i want the performance/low noise solution most everyone here wants. only i'm doing something you guys can't seem to figure out, maybe not even Cathar. there's lots of info on ducted airflow systems that deal with low noise and other issues. my external W/C box is like nothing i've seen in forums. let's just say you can't see the fans or the core unless you open up the enclosure. i found lots of info-this should get you started. BTW, i've never put links in my SO few posts and have no idea if these are going to work.

http://www.vent-axia.com/sharing/ductingair.asp

http://www.nidec.com/aircooling/ap.htm


start GOOGLING!
Id like to see your rad box, do you have any pictures you could share with us?
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Unread 03-27-2005, 07:23 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxSaleen
Ducting air can be very effective at managing airflow/noise/heat dissipation. The problem lies in the fact that most ducting is unique to each case and radiator placement within the case. Cath's goal was build a radiator optimized for any placement within a case with certain perameters regarding noise and heat dissipation.

edit: you have a point though, slicey. When properly implemented, ducting can provide high airflow with minimal noise (think of the a/c system in a house). The problem lies in mass integration.
I was actually talking about a stand alone rad box. in order to construct an enclosure w/ internal ducting and doing so by following the basic dos and don'ts of ducting w/ inline fan of the size i'm using or even w 4" fans, requires a huge box!
my bad for overlooking the fact cather wants this setup mounted in PC. memory is crappy, but thought i read few pages back, cather commented that a member's rad box looked like his?

don't think exactly like that of an a/c system in a house, though. you don,t want the air velocity in the ducting to move too fast. that only increases friction and raises system impedance. i think that info is in one of the links i posted.

i tried adding some excellent reading to my post called, IMPROVING FAN SYSTEM PERFORMANCE: A SOURCEBOOK FOR INDUSTRY but the file is like 1.7MB. great reading, though
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Unread 03-27-2005, 07:36 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirious
Id like to see your rad box, do you have any pictures you could share with us?
no camera, thus no pictures.
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Unread 03-27-2005, 12:56 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicey
no camera, thus no pictures.
That sucks, i learn best by seeing. thx for posting the links though.
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Unread 03-28-2005, 02:53 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Sorry - anyone who uses the words "Delta" and "quiet" in the same context, especially when talking about the multi-blade fans, really doesn't understand the nature of what's trying to be achieved in terms of actual "quiet".
Would suggest you look at the Delta Tri blade fans at Sidewinder pc. 75cfm @ 34dba isn't a loud fan. And allows more room for performance when desired, or by undervolting, lower noise is also possible.

Now a Vantec tornado 80mm X 38mm IS loud, but then it's 55dba not 34dba. Not to mention the high pitched nature of the 55dba noise, that's loud.

Not being able to hear if a rig is on is NOT a need.

Just another further form of "net ego".

And if you yourself want the very lowest noise possible Cathar, then you may wish to take a look at the Noiseblocker SX2 Pro 120mm fan. 64cfm @ 26dba. But hard to find and expensive when you do.......at least in the US.

Only site I know of that has them in north america is this: www.mutepc.net

Strangly I find that the site sometimes comes up in french as it's canadian. But when that happens I just retype direct into the toolbar to get the english version.
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Unread 03-28-2005, 03:17 PM   #183
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"34dba isn't a loud fan"
to you; that is YOUR value judgement
(you would do well to not post such in discussions about silence)

34db(A) has nothing to do with what Cathar and I were discussing

slicey
words are cheap and whiskey costs money
what are the outside dimensions of your box ?
how many watts you dumping ?
what's the noise level (1m from box all 4 sides) ?
how many fans, and of what model ?
where is the pump ?

I do not doubt it can be done,
I do question how large it would have to be to be sub-audible
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Unread 03-28-2005, 03:17 PM   #184
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Slicey,

EXACTLY

Anyone who's demanding a rig they can't hear AT ALL, should be going this route.

Improved rad designs & better designed fans to go with them can and will do a lot. But a exterior rad/fan/pump case (perhaps with PSU also in it) is really the way to go for NO noise or very much reduced noise while also maintaining a higher level of performance.
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Unread 03-28-2005, 04:23 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
"34dba isn't a loud fan"
to you; that is YOUR value judgement
(you would do well to not post such in discussions about silence)

34db(A) has nothing to do with what Cathar and I were discussing

slicey
words are cheap and whiskey costs money
what are the outside dimensions of your box ?
how many watts you dumping ?
what's the noise level (1m from box all 4 sides) ?
how many fans, and of what model ?
where is the pump ?

I do not doubt it can be done,
I do question how large it would have to be to be sub-audible



NOTE that I also posted that for further reduction of noise the fan could also be undervolted Bill. And if undervolted to 6v I suspect it would be a good deal lower in noise, while still having higher performance on tap in a instant by just turning up a reobus. And YES it is MY value that anything that can be undervolted & is 35dba or less when @ 12v, is a good option for noise control, most of all if it also offers higher pressure.

This is a open forum, if you want a private conversation with Cathar please do, via e-mail or PM's. Other than those anyone is free to offer whatever THEY feel meets the needs/values they have for low noise/quiet.

And regardless of if Slicey can full fill YOUR demands Bill for dba readings that you yourself have a disclaimer for in Swiftech's adds or when you provide background infor in reviews, I'd like to hear more from him in those areas of lower noise/noise control via the suggested methods he posted about. And the questions you want answers to are really rather meaningless unless he also tested and messured all those same components in a open setting, or in case setting as well, but then you know this. And if he was collecting all that data I expect he'd be posting a article.

Lowering noise levels while maintaining full performance is of interest, puters that you can't tell if they are on arn't, they are just "net ego" in a new form.

As was mentioned by someone earlier, PSU noise levels get in the way of real silence, as unless you wish to spend a couple hundered on a NO noise & lower performance PSU, you'll not be buying such a PSU.

Last edited by Blackeagle; 03-30-2005 at 10:03 PM.
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Unread 03-28-2005, 04:42 PM   #186
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Are these goin to made in just a single comfig or will there be a dual? How do u think these would compare to a 2-342?
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Unread 03-28-2005, 08:01 PM   #187
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Quote:
As was mentioned by someone earlier, PSU noise levels get in the way of real silence, as unless you wish to spend a couple hundered on a NO noise & lower performance PSU, you'll not be buying such a PSU.
I have a problem with this statement. I have a Tagan PSU in one of my PCs and cannot sing enough praise about it. It is VERY quiet; inaudible from a distance greater than 1'. It also performs very well. To say that having a high performing PSU with a low noise signature is impossible is to not have complete knowledge of the market. Think about it this way: the Tagan PSU with a 280w load (an acceptable load for a high end PC) will be about 70% efficient. Let's say that the PSU has a heat dump of 50w. This is distributed evenly over a large heatsink. By just guestimating, one can see that 15-20cfm of airflow is more than adequate to keep the PSU cool.

I have to agree, though, that an external solution would be much more efficient. It would also be much simpler for the end user. OEMs, however, seem to be weary of external solutions. The few that have been used (Voodoo/swiftech, falconnw/unknown, velocity micro/in house) have all been internal solutions.
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Unread 03-28-2005, 08:27 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
what are the outside dimensions of your box ?
how many watts you dumping ?
what's the noise level (1m from box all 4 sides) ?
how many fans, and of what model ?
where is the pump ?
If I might add:
what ambient level are you trying to be sub-to?
Diameter and length of ducts?
Guesses as to actual air flow rate?
Frequency range you're trying to eliminate?
Enclosure material? MDF? Bracing needed?
Internal surface treatment (absorbtive? diffuser? what?)
Material duct(s) is/are made of. Also lined?

If you'd like to tell everyone here that you have answers that nobody else has come up with, then, well, some of us, at least, expect you to present at least some of those answers.

If you tell people to "start GOOGLING" as though nobody here knows how to do that - and as though all info on the web was good (diagram on aerofoils in the first link was wrong, BTW - unless it was illustrating failure-through-separation, which the text did not mention), expect to get questioned a little bit. One of the reasons the info here is good is that posts like this (all claim and no back-up) do get questioned. If you're shy about quoting temp, wattage, flow, or noise numbers, well, good for you - but these are all things you can make an educated guess about - so long as you tell everyone how you arrived at the guess.

As a side issue - maybe it makes sense to start a separate "ducting W/C systems for low noise with good performance" thread?
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Unread 03-28-2005, 08:39 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
Lowering noise levels while maintaining full performance is of interest, e-penis comparisons via puters that you can't tell if they are on isn't, they are just "net ego" in a new form.
You're saying that lowering noise is of interest, but lowering it to the point of inaudibility is an "e-penis comparison"? Just "net ego"?
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Unread 03-28-2005, 09:03 PM   #190
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thanks bk, the internal dampening + direction changes, quite a design chore

Be is stuck on the e-penis answer for what is not of interest to him
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Unread 03-28-2005, 09:19 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxSaleen
I have a problem with this statement. I have a Tagan PSU in one of my PCs and cannot sing enough praise about it. It is VERY quiet; inaudible from a distance greater than 1'. It also performs very well. To say that having a high performing PSU with a low noise signature is impossible is to not have complete knowledge of the market. Think about it this way: the Tagan PSU with a 280w load (an acceptable load for a high end PC) will be about 70% efficient. Let's say that the PSU has a heat dump of 50w. This is distributed evenly over a large heatsink. By just guestimating, one can see that 15-20cfm of airflow is more than adequate to keep the PSU cool.

I have to agree, though, that an external solution would be much more efficient. It would also be much simpler for the end user. OEMs, however, seem to be weary of external solutions. The few that have been used (Voodoo/swiftech, falconnw/unknown, velocity micro/in house) have all been internal solutions.

Have no problem with LOW noise designs, and they have improved a lot.

Tagan and other low noise PSU can and do make good choices for a high end overclocked rig. There are in fact a pretty nice selection of units with 120mm fans for low noise now out. I've a SuperFlower 550w unit with a 140mm fan, much lower noise than my PCP&C 510, but has more droop on the 12v rail.

But I've yet to see a high end overclocked rig making use of a fanless PSU. It may well be that most overclockers want 500+watt units as the major reason for this. But until I see one used in such a system for a extended time frame I'd not use a fanless unit.
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Unread 03-28-2005, 09:32 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
You're saying that lowering noise is of interest, but lowering it to the point of inaudibility is an "e-penis comparison"? Just "net ego"?
Lowering of noise levels does interest me. Some high end set ups are getting to loud, so noise control is of value to me.

But to pursue it to the point you can't tell if it's on? Nope, taken to such extrmes it's of no interest.

Same as adding phase change gear to a rig to get it to do speeds that can't be maintained over extended time periods without damage. Just so they can post a new 3D score.........fine for them I guess, but of no interest to me.

Such extremes, in silence or extreme speed are just ego trips. But then ego is what often leads to extremism in the first place.
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Unread 03-28-2005, 09:47 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
thanks bk, the internal dampening + direction changes, quite a design chore
Perhaps for making of a unit for sale, most of all to OEM's.

But still interesting for DIY.....
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Unread 03-28-2005, 10:16 PM   #194
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I think there may be some easy/cheap things that could be done.
For instance, much of the annoying noise is higher frequencies. A simple 1" of sound absorbent foam can attenuate frequencies down to 7KHz or so (trick is to have air friction a half wavelength away from a reflecting surface). So... if you're set up in the "typical" pull style, put a baffle over the rad opening, spaced, say, so there's a 1" space between the foam and the rad - and put a 1" foam panel on the baffle. Higher frequencies are pretty "beamy" and won't go around the baffle - and you're attenuating whatever might reflect out.
Then there are the tricks the exhaust guys use for attenuating impulse noise. There might be something we could pick up from there, even though we're not dealing with impulse noise. For instance, if you have a duct, why not make it of perforated pipe (or hardware cloth) surrounded with, say, an inch of fiberglass packing - or the "acoustistuff" the speaker builders use as temp resistance isn't a big issue), and wrap the entire business with duct tape or something to maintain pressure.

Marci says that a good portion of the noise is generated by air passing through a radiator. At low air velocity, I'm not sure this is true - and if most of the noise is from the fan(s), then maybe just putting the fan at right angles to the radiator fins may provide a good deal of attenuation.

Back when I was a bike mechanic, there were mufflers called "Dunstall Decibel Silencers". They didn't really silence, but they were nearly wide open and did provide some silencing. The "magic" seemed to be a pack of short tubes (like a handful of straws, held parallel), about 3/4" ID and maybe 3" long that most of the exhaust passed through. At the time I wondered whether the tubes were providing a barrier to any particular frequencies, and how the ID and length worked together to do this. There was no comment about this system in The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems (a must-read if you were putting together race exhaust systems) and I waded through a number of Bolt&Beraneck (yes, the BBN founders - but they started as audio engineers) papers in the library (this was pre-web) but found nothing that might explain it. Might have been a gimmick - but you had to disassemble the "silencer" to see the gimmick, so I dunno...
If tubes of a particular length and ID have audio blocking properties (which they might not - just supposing) then there may be silencing advantages to using a radiator with similar passageway size and depth. Maybe we'll come full circle back to extra-thick heater cores, but for silencing rather than performance reasons. Just a thought, of course...
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Unread 03-28-2005, 10:27 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
But to pursue it to the point you can't tell if it's on? Nope, taken to such extrmes it's of no interest.
Of no interest to you.
Some of us (me, for instance) find even low level PC noise fairly irritating / distracting. Not having anything audible (not silent, just below ambient) lets me stop being irritated about that and get back to being irritated about why my code isn't working right.
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Unread 03-29-2005, 02:43 AM   #196
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I really tried to just ignore some of the above statements, but this one really stuck in my throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
Such extremes, in silence or extreme speed are just ego trips. But then ego is what often leads to extremism in the first place.
Forgive me, but I utterly fail to see how lowering the noise-level of one's computer for personal reasons is an ego trip, especially in terms of an "ego trip" in the same category as a published 3DMark/SuperPi score for all to see and extend one's e-penis over.

Heck, it's not like there's a SilenceMark2005 score that we can all publically rank our systems with. The pursuit of silencing a PC is very much a personal endeavour centered around what is important to the individual and how it impacts their very localised enjoyment of their computer.

If you think that 34dB(A) is quiet enough for everyone, and anyone seeking less noise is just on some sort of ego trip, then I would suggest that such is a position of extreme arrogance, intolerance, and ignorance. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

Now if you were to argue that this thread has gotten off track from the original post, fine. We'll create another thread specifically regarding the optimisation of radiators for in-case near-silence computing. When we're done, one day you might like to look in and try and experience for yourself what we're trying to achieve here, then go back to a noisy computer and see how you feel about it.

The thing I find with silent vs noisy computers is that quite often people will just grow tolerant of the noise level of their PC and think nothing of it, and think all those who want less noise are just crazy people. To such people, I would if possible sit them next to a well setup "quiet" PC for a week, and then send them back to their old PC and ask then if they still feel the same way.

Eccentric and individual to one's tastes? Maybe. Egotistical? Way off base.
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Unread 03-29-2005, 03:49 AM   #197
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sidewinder is selling triple blade deltas? sounds like the apple G5 fans
they are supposed to be quiet, no? oh, i see, blackeagle is suggesting the big 1.5" fan
i'm having a hard time accepting gary's selling points (increased pressure and that *unique* look), but there must be some merit to them, if apple uses them

anyone have any experience?
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Unread 03-29-2005, 08:05 AM   #198
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Quote:
o... if you're set up in the "typical" pull style, put a baffle over the rad opening, spaced, say, so there's a 1" space between the foam and the rad - and put a 1" foam panel on the baffle. Higher frequencies are pretty "beamy" and won't go around the baffle - and you're attenuating whatever might reflect out.
Sounds kind of like the intake setup in by lian-li 6070 case. The baffel is more like 1/2" from the rad intake. Personally, I think it is too restrictive of airflow, but simple design changes could help this. I replaced the stock 8cm fans with 92mm fans (panaflow L1s) undervolted to 9v. I am still yet to hear them. Very effective design.
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Unread 03-29-2005, 03:20 PM   #199
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Since we're talking PSU's I'll chime in. I remounted the 120mm fan on my 400w aurora on the outside of (the bottom of) the psu case. The extra air gap improved airflow enough to slow ramp-up under load.

I had also swapped my radiator and its fans (they are the intake for my case) and the extra airflow (even at the low noise level I wanted) further kept the PSU fan from ramping up.

Ducting fresh air to the PSU would probably make it even quieter.


I found these threads useful:
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/vie...=16393&start=0
and
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=17002

Last edited by Ruiner; 03-29-2005 at 03:33 PM.
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Unread 03-30-2005, 12:04 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
If I might add:
what ambient level are you trying to be sub-to?
Diameter and length of ducts?
Guesses as to actual air flow rate?
Frequency range you're trying to eliminate?
Enclosure material? MDF? Bracing needed?
Internal surface treatment (absorbtive? diffuser? what?)
Material duct(s) is/are made of. Also lined?

If you'd like to tell everyone here that you have answers that nobody else has come up with, then, well, some of us, at least, expect you to present at least some of those answers.

If you tell people to "start GOOGLING" as though nobody here knows how to do that - and as though all info on the web was good (diagram on aerofoils in the first link was wrong, BTW - unless it was illustrating failure-through-separation, which the text did not mention), expect to get questioned a little bit. One of the reasons the info here is good is that posts like this (all claim and no back-up) do get questioned. If you're shy about quoting temp, wattage, flow, or noise numbers, well, good for you - but these are all things you can make an educated guess about - so long as you tell everyone how you arrived at the guess.

As a side issue - maybe it makes sense to start a separate "ducting W/C systems for low noise with good performance" thread?
bobkoure,
i've grown tired of posting new threads and getting little to no response or answers that don't directly pertain to my q. because apparently some people don't take the the time to really read what i'm asking or their Riddalin.
about my box, or rather my small dresser. for that's the size it came out to be. the inlets/outlet are directed towards the underside of the bed. obviously those opening are where most of the noise comes from. i won't post specs because i haven't any reliable devices for measurements. all i can tell you is it's considerably quieter that my antec 550w PSU.
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