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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-21-2004, 07:58 PM   #26
greenman100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars
Hey Ben, you have the blower motor positioned wrong. Unless, this is just a temporary install for the picture. The side of the cage should be pointing towards the radiator.
Hey Mars, you're wrong. Think centrifugal force....the blower is sucking through the rad

sending preheated air from the mobo/HDs through the rad would not be optimal
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Unread 07-21-2004, 08:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars
Hey Ben, you have the blower motor positioned wrong. Unless, this is just a temporary install for the picture. The side of the cage should be pointing towards the radiator.
That would be ideal, unfortunately, it wouldn't fit.

So I'm building a custom shroud out of fiberglass, to use it in that exact position. It'll suck air from the front, and exhaust it backwards, through the rad.

The only issue I have with this setup is that it's a brushed motor. A brushless motor would be highly preferable. A motorized impeller (motor inside the wheel) would be perfect, but I have yet to find one for a reasonable price.
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Unread 07-21-2004, 08:11 PM   #28
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bigben

why not the way I said it?

maybe I am way wrong
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Unread 07-21-2004, 08:31 PM   #29
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Actually, you have it backwards!

The inlet is at the opposite side of the motor. The air flows back-wards through the blades of the wheel. You know that part.

In my setup, the blower sucks air from the front, and blows it back towards the heatercore. The shroud I've build leaves a 1/2" gap around the blower's mounting plate (minus 5 screw tabs), for the air to get to the heatercore.
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Unread 07-21-2004, 09:14 PM   #30
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why not pull through the back of the case, through the HC, leave it unshrouded, and let the air fow down through the case over the mobo?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 09:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars
...squirel caged, and run on 12v. But they need to be in a box of some sort to direct the airflow...
No box needed if you're using a squirrel cage fan for suction...
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Unread 07-21-2004, 09:29 PM   #32
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slick, be nice to test
any comparative 'feel' Bob ?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 09:49 PM   #33
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hmm, after going through the posts, and doing a bit of internet research, i've found that really what i'm looking for is a bit out of hand. a blower with a 120mm square outlet would probably be a little large, and/or noisy. i notice that most of the blowers in the smaller range are all relatively flat with narrow rectangular outlets. even with a shroud, i'd still worry about air only being directed through a certain cross section of the rad. i was hoping that somewhere in the world, someone was making a 120mm blower like a scaled up version of the Coolermaster Aero 7. then again, i had an aero 7, and at full tilt, it sounded like i had a hair dryer running in my case (one of the reasons why i switched to water cooling). maybe i can gang four aero 7's together in a single shroud, that would be interesting....

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Unread 07-21-2004, 09:51 PM   #34
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bob knows what I was saying

IIRC, that blower was less than 70CFM freeflow
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Unread 07-21-2004, 09:52 PM   #35
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aero7s are weak

how much cubic space do you have to work with? dimensions?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 10:09 PM   #36
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i have a chieftec matrix full tower case with the fan/shroud/rad/shroud/fan mounted to the roof of the case, a little rearward of center. i'd say i have 7.5"x6.5"x6.0" to play with at the moment. this was my first wc attempt so i placed things the best i could so that i could remove most any component without having to drain and remove the wc setup. here's a pic, hopefully, that may help...
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Unread 07-21-2004, 10:18 PM   #37
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@ bob, very nice. looks like what i'll be doing as i think i've got both the same blower and very similar rad. any test runs of that yet?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 10:20 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
why not pull through the back of the case, through the HC, leave it unshrouded, and let the air fow down through the case over the mobo?
That would be contrary to the normally expected flow path of an ATX case (not that i'll be anywhere near a typical ATX setup!). Rear exhaust works really well for me.


I've found that a blower would have to be 4" or 5.25" in diameter, to have a decent amount of flow. Based on specs, where undervolting to 7 volts works. Run silent, run deep.
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Unread 07-21-2004, 10:45 PM   #39
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whatever works for you, I just think you are losing major efficency by making the air change directions so many times, not to mention the air will be preheated by whatever's in front of the blower (maybe nothing, unsure of your final setup)

your PSUs are in the front, aren't they? kinda running the reverse of a normal setup anyway?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 10:46 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
No box needed if you're using a squirrel cage fan for suction...

Ohhhhhh...... that type of squirel cage. Yeah, looks efficient. Takes a lot of space though, doesn't it?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 10:54 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
Hey Mars, you're wrong. Think centrifugal force....the blower is sucking through the rad

sending preheated air from the mobo/HDs through the rad would not be optimal

Your not understanding what I'm saying. The way the fan blades of the "Blower Motor" works is sort of like a water mill. Picture this: If the water mill spins at 5000 rpm it'll pick up the water and throw the water beside itself from the centrifugal force. Not in front of itself.

If you look where the blower motor sits in your car, it is always positioned sideways from the heater core and the evaporator.
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Unread 07-21-2004, 10:58 PM   #42
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hey mars, you're missing it...

look at that pic you quoted

the plastic cage with the blades PULLS that air from in front of it and THROWS it out to the sides

no shroud needed

got it?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 11:04 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
That would be ideal, unfortunately, it wouldn't fit.

So I'm building a custom shroud out of fiberglass, to use it in that exact position. It'll suck air from the front, and exhaust it backwards, through the rad.

The only issue I have with this setup is that it's a brushed motor. A brushless motor would be highly preferable. A motorized impeller (motor inside the wheel) would be perfect, but I have yet to find one for a reasonable price.

Hhmmmmm........I see what you are saying. Your going to divert the air to tunnel it backwards. Possibly in a cyclonic way. I don't know how efficient that'll be.
When I say 'I don't know', I mean you are the first person I know to use the 'Blower Motor' like that. I can tell from your posts that you are an intelligent man with excellent ideas, and strong knowledge.

Let us know how it works out, so we to can benefit from your ideas.
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Unread 07-21-2004, 11:07 PM   #44
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all clear now?
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Unread 07-21-2004, 11:11 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
hey mars, you're missing it...

look at that pic you quoted

the plastic cage with the blades PULLS that air from in front of it and THROWS it out to the sides

no shroud needed

got it?
I see the pic. You are right. However, I am referring to an automotive Blower Motor. Not the pic above.

If your implementing that the "automotive Blower Motor" will work the same way as the pic above, I've never seen it that way. They are 2 different fans performing different ways. Only Big Ben, will know how well it works when he completes his project.
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Unread 07-21-2004, 11:15 PM   #46
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any blower with a cage will work for it
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Unread 07-21-2004, 11:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars
Hhmmmmm........I see what you are saying. Your going to divert the air to tunnel it backwards. Possibly in a cyclonic way. I don't know how efficient that'll be.
When I say 'I don't know', I mean you are the first person I know to use the 'Blower Motor' like that. I can tell from your posts that you are an intelligent man with excellent ideas, and strong knowledge.

Let us know how it works out, so we to can benefit from your ideas.
Exactamundo!

Given the shape of the shroud, I expect the airflow to be concentrated along the outer edge of the heatercore (and yes, possibly cyclonic): I just hope that there's no reflow within the center area of the core. I might have to put a bunch of little ribbons to observe the actual airflow. Worse case, I'll have to block the center area of the core, but that's really no big deal, because the airflow will most certainly be there, and the core is still relatively large, at 6" by 8". No big loss.

Right now the main issue I have is connecting the shroud to the core, but it's a minor problem. Mounting the blower is resolved, it just needs to be done.


The pic above looks a lot like JFettig's implementation of a blower on a core. Very easy to do, it's just hard to find the motorized impeller for a decent price. Allelectronics.com had one for a while, but it was seriously under-rated, as I discovered here:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=7314
(never mind the first few posts )
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Unread 07-22-2004, 12:24 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars
I see the pic. You are right. However, I am referring to an automotive Blower Motor. Not the pic above.

If your implementing that the "automotive Blower Motor" will work the same way as the pic above, I've never seen it that way. They are 2 different fans performing different ways. Only Big Ben, will know how well it works when he completes his project.
an "automotive blower" works the exact same way as the blower pictured (in fact, the blower pictured could be an "automotive blower", whatever that means, lol)
the difference is in your mind - all blower/squirrel cage fans work on the same exact principles.
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Unread 07-22-2004, 04:18 AM   #49
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Actually that there are two types of blowers shown, one forward inclined and onebackwards. Both have their advantages, forward is quieter, but reverse works non overloading, that is it works better against restrictions. It'll be interesting to see results....too bad it's so hard to quantify noise levels.

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Unread 07-22-2004, 06:03 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
Mounting the blower is resolved, it just needs to be done.
What will you use to dampen vibration? Rubber washers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
Right now the main issue I have is connecting the shroud to the core, but it's a minor problem.
I understand the issue you have, and I think now's the time to face it: This is one of the rare moments in your life where it's OK to use duct tape. It's really OK.

Larger blowers get connected/shrouded with heavyweight plasticized cloth. It won't rattle, and allows some play in installation. A lightweight plasticized cloth is duct tape.
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