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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:04 AM   #26
Pug
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...bearing in mind that this kit is a production kit including a res, AS5 etc, maybe we should just say single BIX2 with twin papst?
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:05 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug
Well, obviously, all these things should be taken into consideration - I'm open to advice/contribution of ideas.
I guess using the same fans on the rad might help keep a fair fight, otherwise substitutions should be graded on their merits - if, given that we submit a quieter, more efficient system, this should be shown in results.
so we start the slide already
no, do suggest that - with an upper limit on fan noise (or all use the same type) - one single criteria be defined; were we not discussing temps ?

I personally have no problem with also defining 'lower noise', but would consider that a separate contest as the component selection is on a different basis

note that kits sold here are considerably less than $300 w/o chicset and GPU wbs
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:07 AM   #28
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I'm sure for less than $50US we could find a truck heater-core and slap a few 6" Comair Rotron's on it, which would in all likelihood outdo Phaestus's proposed radiator setup.

Heatercore - $50

Comair Rotron Fans x 4 - $40

Laing D4 - $80

18v PSU to drive Laing D4 - $25

Tubing & Clamps - $10

Waterblock - uh what's the change there out of $380 US? $175 US left over? That should cover pretty much any block on the market you care to name.

Tweak the fans via their speed controls to meet the desired noise limitations...
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:07 AM   #29
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bah
single rad with 2 fans, is this what you really mean ?
and a BIX with 2 Pabst fans won't pull a sick whore off a piss pot !
(EDIT: missed that it was a BIX2, better)

EDIT:
Pug, think on this some more - then re-start it with some defined rules
and no, we MUST have the freedom to select the rad(s) of choice
(can you taste defeat ?)

Last edited by BillA; 05-25-2004 at 10:14 AM.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:07 AM   #30
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who's not keeping it real? Plenty of people here in these forums run dual radiators. The BIX2s are in fact smaller than what I use That's my solution to "I want water temps as close to room temp as possible while using quiet fans".

Anyway you're right this isn't a commonly sold configuration by many mfgrs (swiftech does dual bi micros though). Perhaps defining a kit as being a package sold as a complete wc solution by the mfgr would be a start?

Swiftech, Koolance, Thermaltaco are only complete wc kits from US I can think of atm. Am I missing anyone?
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:23 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butcher
Almost any water cooling is going to be a lot cooler than even adequate air. To get the sort of temps you get with a mediocre water system you need howling fans blowing over a top notch heatsink.
.

the zalman 7000CNPS Cu has little trouble beating more w/c systems, and is in fact quieter than most w/c systems.


anyway, back to the car analogy I guess... //edit by pH: car analogy removed
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Last edited by pHaestus; 05-25-2004 at 01:25 PM.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:24 AM   #32
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I agree - you need to set the rules at the start. Account for everything that may be required. Also, take in to consideration the fact that stuff is a hell of a lot cheaper in the US then here, especially as the exchange rate of £-$ is so good (for importing).

Should be interesting. Maybe we should set a various set of tests that cover temperature, size, sound level etc? As just doing temperature I know the "Yanks" will win
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:28 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meethoss
I agree - you need to set the rules at the start. Account for everything that may be required. Also, take in to consideration the fact that stuff is a hell of a lot cheaper in the US then here, especially as the exchange rate of £-$ is so good (for importing).

Should be interesting. Maybe we should set a various set of tests that cover temperature, size, sound level etc? As just doing temperature I know the "Yanks" will win
Well I can enter that contest

Processor: 2400+ (1.8 ghz) at 2.3 ghz, 1.825 volts
Block: D-tek Spri@l, lapped perfectly
Pump: Danner Mag 3 (someday it wont leak, I promise)
Rad: Bonneville doublecore
Fans: 2x120 mm Evercool @ 7v

Temps: Full load, processor is, at max, 8C over ambient.
Noise: Nearly silent. I can hear the harddrives access and spin. The pump puts out no noise, the fans are the only noise in the system.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:29 AM   #34
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No slide but if you use two rads & we submit one... well yes, then I could taste defeat.
Is this how you guys normally do comparisons? No, I thought not. When I said keeping it real, I think you know what I meant...

Lets stick to off-the shelf production parts for a start but BillA, you're right, it will require a bit more thought to reach a common testing ground.

If you want dual rads, we'll both do duals; if you want deltas *shudders*, so be it.
Quote:
and a BIX with 2 Pabst fans won't pull a sick whore off a piss pot !
I can tell you haven't tried these blocks yet...
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:33 AM   #35
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Kronchev - our blocks don't need lapping & bonnevile core is not the production off-the-shelf part I meant. Next, you'll be saying copyman's rads, well, if so, let us both eat cake...

[edit] Thx HAL (you wanta see a Titan aquatube with a red LED then ) might be better to keep other product enquiries out of this for now but if you want to mail me or check in the w/c product enquiries section of our forum, I'll get to it as soon as I can )
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:36 AM   #36
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Pug
was not trying to go 'over the top'
as you know we use dual rads, 80s for now

why all the fol de rol, why not just send your wb to pHaestus ?
- nothin' rads gonna do to make it perform any better
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:37 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug
Kronchev - our blocks don't need lapping & bonnevile core is not the production off-the-shelf part I meant. Next, you'll be saying copyman's rads, well, if so, let us both eat cake...

[edit] Thx HAL (you wanta see a Titan aquatube with a red LED then ) might be better to keep other product enquiries out of this for now but if you want to mail me or check in the w/c product enquiries section of our forum, I'll get to it as soon as I can )
My block didnt need lapping either, but I tried to do it once because I was bored and ended up ruining the surface. Bonneville core can be substituted for any double heatercore.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:45 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
Pug
was not trying to go 'over the top'
as you know we use dual rads, 80s for now

why all the fol de rol, why not just send your wb to pHaestus ?
- nothin' rads gonna do to make it perform any better
Well, we use metric, you use imperial {- we also have a kickass 12V pump (& a 24V step-up transformer) which should dispel the low-flow rantings}.

Thought it might make it easier but yes, I hadn't totally thought it through.
Hence the suggestion of a BIX2 - easy for you guys to source & we have them with G1/4 tapped threads for interchangeable fittings now.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meethoss
I agree - you need to set the rules at the start. Account for everything that may be required. Also, take in to consideration the fact that stuff is a hell of a lot cheaper in the US then here, especially as the exchange rate of £-$ is so good (for importing).
I concur, whichever parts are selected for the larger set-up should be tallied using UK/EU prices.
(Or price the German kit according go the US distributor of the parts).

However, I think both systems need to be commensurate with what a good majority of their advocates are currently using on a daily basis.

I think for the US kit that would entail something like a Cascade/RBX, 1/2" fittings, single 120mm heatercore with 2 medium output axial fans at 12v in a push-pull arrangement, MCP600 pump.

The German systems seem to typically be run with a dual 120mm rad but with 2 fans in a push only configuration.
Add to that PnC or 10mm/8mm ID fittings, an Eheim 1048 and a Nexxxos HP/CC CF1/Cuplex block.

I think the above parts would form representative systems of each of the opposing philiosophies and are certainly consistent with the types of set ups I was thinking of when asking the initial questions.

Last edited by nightic; 05-25-2004 at 11:36 AM.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug
Well, we use metric, you use imperial {- we also have a kickass 12V pump (& a 24V step-up transformer) which should dispel the low-flow rantings}.

Thought it might make it easier but yes, I hadn't totally thought it through.
Hence the suggestion of a BIX2 - easy for you guys to source & we have them with G1/4 tapped threads for interchangeable fittings now.
all a BIX is, is a painted heatercore.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 11:22 AM   #41
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//edit by pH: off-topic stuff removed

Back to the original subject:
The Germans do seem to focus on quiet (Innovatek passive radiators, for example), and given water's specific heat, you really don't need a lot of flow to carry away the heat generated by a CPU. IMHO, the downfall of low flow is that the lack of volume/flow translates into a lack of velocity in the waterblock(s). And the downfall of quiet (passive or low airflow) radiators is that coolant is warmer. So you end up with a double whammy - less efficient transfer into warmer coolant.
But you get quiet. I like quiet. IMHO there's not lots of point in having a fast PC on/under your desk if fan/pump/disk noise is going to drive you to distraction.
Up to now, I've pretty much been following the German low-noise pattern (both for my personal PC and for others I've set up - including one in a recording studio) - but with 3/8" (9.53mm) ID tubing (German stuff seems to be 8mm ID). It does seem to work - even with overclocks and the occasional couple of hours testing at 100% load (SiSoft CpuBurn). I think what's going on is that as more heat is generated, the coolant temp goes up, which increases the temp differential between radiator and room air, making the radiator more efficient.
I've since switched my "main" PC over to 1/2" ID tubing, a slightly more powerful pump (1046 to HPPS) and BlackIce Pro to 6x6 heater core. An undervolted 120mm panaflo "L1A" fan, which had no problem pulling sufficient air through a BIP is essentially stalled with a 2" heater core. Stacking two fans got me to reasonable temps (CPU diode shows 5C cooler than with BIP, system only slightly louder). I'm now playing with cage blowers to see if that gives me a better flow-through-restriction / noise tradeoff. Of course, at this point, I'm not looking for a better overclock (limited to ~205MHz by system board anyway) but playing with what's turned into a fun hobby.

Last edited by pHaestus; 05-25-2004 at 01:27 PM.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightic
I think for the US kit that would entail something like a Cascade/RBX, 1/2" fittings, single 120mm heatercore with 2 medium output axial fans at 12v in a push-pull arrangement, MCP600 pump.

The German systems seem to typically be run with a dual 120mm rad but with 2 fans in a push only configuration.
Add to that PnC or 10mm/8mm ID fittings, an Eheim 1048 and a Nexxxos HP/CC CF1/Cuplex block.
It would be a little unfair to give the US kit a Cascade since it's Australian. And the same for the White Water. The next best would be a TDX or RBX as they are American (even though they copied the WW) or probably a Swiftech block.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:15 PM   #43
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clearly Pug's intent was to compare commercial kit offerings,
not an assemblage of components from various sources

or again, was he so doing ?

Pug needs to better define his challenge
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:18 PM   #44
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since we are debating philosophies... the austrailian, cather specifically, seems to follow more the u.s. side... so i think it would be fair. but the new swifty should be able to hold its own just fine, especially the 6002 as it should see slightly higher flow rates

Last edited by trit187; 05-25-2004 at 12:25 PM.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:25 PM   #45
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Hmm...I'd say it was more clever engineering than brute force. But I'm pretty new at all this Cathar, what's your take on it?
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:27 PM   #46
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definatly good engineering, but also requires big pump with a big head to be able to push high enough flow rates to see it's best preformance
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:35 PM   #47
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I think an ideal test rig would be basically high-flow vs. low flow. Since Yanks dig heatercores, and Europeans like BIX's we can find a common radiator...a small European car's heatercore for instance. For a pump, I would probably pick a Eheim 1046 because its pretty high flow, and pretty common on both sides of the drink. That way we can focus on the blocks.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:44 PM   #48
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if you just want to deal with the blocks then just toss them into pH's setup, then calculate restrictivness. i believe the original challege was for a complete setup.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:46 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
clearly Pug's intent was to compare commercial kit offerings,
not an assemblage of components from various sources

or again, was he so doing ?


Pug needs to better define his challenge
Okay, how's this. To keep testing from getting too complicated and also to stick to the original theme of the thread (what's left of it), what say we offer our block, fittings, hose and molex feed pump against yours?
Same rad & fans to keep the comparison on a level playing field...

Sound better?

[Edit] I stand by the BIX2 choice as easiest to get comparitive results and allow both sides to test & correlate the results of their own tests as a backup check.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 12:59 PM   #50
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I will either test a wb or I will test a complete kit (only kits currently offered to consumers as an all in one package). Presumably a kit is engineered to optimize the tradeoffs in size, flow, cost, noise, and performance. Testing only part of a kit doesn't show this (and then my normal wb test would be far more useful).
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