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Unread 03-28-2010, 07:59 PM   #1
Phoenix32
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Default Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

There has been just enough interest in SATA conversion for the SNAP 4400, 4200, 4500, and 15000 (and possibly others like the 14000 etc) to cause me to continue with at least a discussion of the topic. Much of the responses to me on the subject have been a simple, “They just don’t realize how big a deal this is”. Meaning, many of those who read the previous message thread just did not know how this could affect them. Thus, this message thread was born.

The meat of this message thread will be more like an article than a simple message post, but I am trying to provide the information people have asked me for, in a semi-detailed method. I am sorry it will have to be so long. I hope it will be worth the read time for you.

I am going to attempt to break it up in sections for the various steps of the thought process. Feel free to, and in fact I encourage, respond to any or all of the steps with your thoughts on the subject.

While some of it may apply to enterprise use, this is aimed primarily at the home and small business users.

Those of you only interested in SATA for the 4400/4200/4500/15000, you may wish to skip ahead to the SNAP 4400/4500 FAMILY section now.

Last edited by Phoenix32; 03-28-2010 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Title Change
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Unread 03-28-2010, 08:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: A Case for SATA on 4400/4200/4500

STORAGE NEEDS

I could go clear back to the days of 2GB drives, but I think you will get the idea with just the very near past.

It was not very long ago when 1TB was considered a mass amount of data and would easily be “enough” for anyone, right? If you had 4 x 250GB, surely it would be enough, and you were on the top of the game. When I said not very long ago, think about it. This really was a very short time ago.

Enter much larger programs, larger hard disks in your desktops and notebooks needing backed up, and last but very far from least, huge amounts of data in the form of multimedia. New methods for backing up all your computers, new methods for storing your movies, music, photos, and new methods for streaming all this stuff throughout your home or office.

FACT! We have had a huge data explosion the last couple of years. And the word explosion may be a very severe understatement.

With all of this, a central location (or locations) to put all this data is becoming more and more important and cost effective. There are many way to do this, which I will discuss in brief a little later in this, but just suffice it to say, if you are reading this, you are probably one of the people trying to figure out where to put all this data. If not, then this may be a waste for you, at least for now.
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Unread 03-28-2010, 08:01 PM   #3
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Default Re: A Case for SATA on 4400/4200/4500

STORAGE OPTIONS

There is a plethora of ways to come up with the central storage needed/desired, but I will only try to hit the highlights here.

You could pack up your desktops and notebooks with larger drives, but this is inefficient and only serves to compound the problem in many ways. Further, it does nothing to centralize your data.

External Storage in the form of USB and Firewire devices (or similar) is an option, but again, it is inefficient and does nothing towards centralization in most cases.

Exotic enterprise devices like SANS and so forth are a great option for centralization, but they are far more expensive per GB/TB than other solutions, and are far out of the reach of most home or small office expenses. Even if you get a super deal on one of these type devices, expansion for it will cost you an arm, leg, and quart of blood. So still, not a great solution when economy comes into play.

In the end, NAS solutions do more bang for your buck for a home user or small office user than any other solutions you are going to find. Simple.
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Unread 03-28-2010, 08:03 PM   #4
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Default Re: A Case for SATA on 4400/4200/4500

NAS SOLUTIONS

I am going to be short and sweet in this section. Everyone will have an opinion on this, and all I can present is my opinion mixed with the opinions I have heard over and over and over, and over from people I trust in the industry.

There are plenty of types of NAS/File Server applications and hardware out there. The solutions you hear most often on this forum are, SNAP OS based unit, Guardian OS based units, FreeNAS, Open Filer, other factory NAS units, and of course various Windows solutions. One at a time, here we go, and yes this will be the most highly contested section. But again, I am telling you now, all I can give you is my opinion, mixed with opinions I have heard from genuine experts in the field that I trust completely.

For the purposes of this conversation, SNAP OS units are out of the equations for very basic reasons. 1) Storage limits are too small. 2) SNAP OS is no longer supported and is falling out of date rapidly with newer Operating Systems and Server applications. 3) Lastly, let’s admit it; 100baseT just doesn’t cut it for large amounts of data. These units are just plain too old and have outlived their usefulness in this area.

FreeNAS, well, this one is going to piss some people off, sorry. I know and have spoken with many genuine experts in this field and they flat out say that FreeNAS is crap, at least at this point still, and not trustworthy with any data that is important to you. Couple this with the fact that putting any hardware together worth using and you will be near enough the costs of a decent factory unit to make it just not worth while. If you are a fan of FreeNAS or one of its developers, please do not bombard me with your anger. I have a right to my opinion and it is based on opinions of people I trust. It is only an opinion. If you like it, cool, use it. I don’t, I won’t, and will not recommend it.

Open Filer has had decent enough things said about it, but I have been told by many that it is resource hungry and inefficient. This brings us back to the costs in the end for what you get in the end. Simple, you can do better.

There are as many other type factory NAS solutions as there are opinions on the subject. I could never possibly cover them all here, and the debate would also never end. Thus, for this one, just read what I say about GOS and make up your own mind.

Windows solutions are not too bad in some applications, but in fact, these solutions are not specifically designed for NAS/File Serving from the ground up. It is a lot of overkill and costs wise, usually in the same price range as other NAS solutions like GOS units that serve a more direct purpose for what they do more efficiently.

This brings us to Guardian OS (GOS). GOS has been a standard to live up to in the industry for a long time and trusted by genuine experts as a whole. It is an enterprise class solution, that fortunate for us, can be had at lower costs when looking at lower end or older equipments of this category. This is, in my and many others opinions, by far the best, well tested, mature, updated, and versatile solution available for NAS and File Serving applications. Couple this with the availability and costs of older or lower end GOS solutions, is almost a no contest for the NAS/File Serving we need in this conversation. And not the least, even for upper end applications in the enterprise world, is still trusted above many others and used in the SAS/SANS areas as well.

This part of the article was probably the most opinionated and open for heated debates, but I remind you, I just presented my opinions, you can choose to accept them or not. I have to assume many of you agree however, or you would probably not be on this forum.
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Unread 03-28-2010, 08:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: A Case for SATA on 4400/4200/4500

SNAP 4400/4500 FAMILY

For the 4400/4500 family, I am talking about the Snap 4400, 4200, 4500, and 15000, as well as the Snap Disk 10 expansions. These are older, more mature, 1U, 4 drive units of the GOS Snap family. These units still use the same GOS as the most current units, thus same capabilities from a software point.

Fortunately for many of us, these units were/are rock solid reliable units and yet are well within the reach of the average home or small office on a cost basis. These units are readily available for a decent price, and if you buy a good unit, are near as reliable today as they were the day they came off the assembly line. They have the full capabilities of the GOS and have Dual Gb LAN connections for fast data transfers. What more could you ask for in this discussion regarding a place for central localization of large amounts of data? It even supports all the newest operating systems for your desktops, notebooks, and even servers. Not to mention, full iSCSI support, which is becoming important to many people these days.

As a side note, the 4400 while not dead silent, is quiet enough for many people to operate in their living rooms if needed.

So, what’s the problem(s)? Read on…
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Unread 03-28-2010, 08:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: A Case for SATA on 4400/4200/4500

THE PROBLEM(S)

The first problem some people have with the 4400/4500 family is fear of changing drives in them. Let me just say this as direct as I can, this is an unfounded fear. Changing drives in the 4400/4500 family of Snaps is as easy as 1, 2, 3, and any child could do it if they follow a simple step by step procedure that has been documented here on this forum over and over. If you follow the step by step, the GOS is copied over for you and will not be lost in the process. Plus, the GOS will still reside on the drives you removed if you make a mistake. It really is very simple.

The next problem is how not to lose your data while changing drives. Well, your data will not be transferred over to the new drives, and to do the job right, would have the RAID array(s) broken before you changed the drives. Thus, this can be a concern for some folks, but in truth, would be a problem in most cases no matter what you were upgrading or converting over to, so not a specific problem to the 4400/4500 family. The answer is to temporarily store your data somewhere else while you do the upgrade.

The main problem is multi-fold and comes down to the PATA/IDE drives themselves. a) IDE drives are normally limited to availability of only up to 500GB and 750GB drives, b) IDE drives are getting harder to get, and c) Related to b, IDE drives are going up in price day by day. To put it simply, you are going to be limited to 2TB and 3TB in these units and you are going to pay a premium for those drives to do it.

As a further note on this, IDE drives in the 500GB and 750GB capacities have been going up in price to ridiculous levels over the past 6 to 8 months. At the same time, 1TB, 1.5TB, and 2TB SATA drives have been going down in price at a fairly steady rate over the same period of time. While there are always exceptions to any rule, as it stands now, you can buy reliable 1.5TB SATA drives for less than for reliable 750GB IDE drives, and reliable 1TB SATA drives for less than for reliable 500GB IDE drives. A key word there is reliable, not crap stuff.
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Unread 03-28-2010, 08:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: A Case for SATA on 4400/4200/4500

SOLUTIONS

Solutions are pretty straight forward. You can a) Live within the limits of 2TB to 3TB, b) Get more Snap Servers, c) Change to another storage solution, d) Upgrade to newer SATA type Snap Servers, or e) Convert your 4400/4500 family Snap Server(s) to SATA.

Some folks can live within the 2TB to 3TB limits, and it does sound like a lot to the average home user, but I remind you about the data explosion we have seen this last couple of years, and there seems to be no end in sight with it yet. 2TB or 3TB is really not that much data anymore, not to mention the premium you will pay for those drives, at least within IDE.

I will not argue about more Snap Servers because it can be the solution in some cases, but for efficiency and costs for hardware, drives, and electricity, maintaining fewer units is more efficient. I myself have 3 x Snap 4400, 1 x Snap 4500 with a Snap Disk 10, and 1 x 15000 with a Snap Disk 30 (that’s 40 drives for those not counting), so who am I to argue against more Snap Servers? But, I also do redundant backup, have a family of desktops, notebooks, and mass amount of multimedia. I am shooting for somewhere in the 40TB+ zone right now.

Changing to another storage solution was covered earlier in the STORAGE OPTIONS and NAS SOLUTIONS sections. Refer back to those sections for basic discussion on this idea.

Ah, upgrading to newer SATA Snap Server Models. If you like this idea, then go for it, but here is my take on this. First, these units (like the 410, 520, etc) are plenty more expensive and you could do an older unit with a SATA upgrade for less. Next, these units are far less efficient and eat more electricity, and thus also create more heat. I don’t know about you, but many would be surprised how much of a damper units like this can put on their electric bill. It’s bad enough now, but if cap and trade ever gets passed, it will really kill you. For home and small office users, do not ever underestimate how much this can affect you. Next, if you think a 4200 or 4500 is loud, wait until you hear one of these jet engines screaming through your house or office, nuff said. Lastly, IMHO, and I am a genuine hardware engineering technician, these units are not built to anywhere near the standards some of the older units were. IMO, Adaptec really screwed the pooch with these units. So let’s see, more expensive, less quality, less efficient, more wattage, more heat, and more noise. Oh yeah, this is a good idea (sarcasm). And all of this does not take into account the problems some people have had with drive upgrades due to some speculative trickery in firmware that prevented drive upgrades in some units (not proven, but suspected).

Guess where this leads us? Yup, right back to converting the 4400/4500 family to SATA drives. This, as you can tell from this article, is in my opinion a very viable and efficient option. These are great units. Well built, reliable, efficient, inexpensive for what you get, and a rock solid well proven NAS solution.

Remember, those IDE drives are only going to get harder to get and thus go up in price, and SATA drives will continue to go lower in price and continue to increase in size.
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Unread 03-28-2010, 08:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: A Case for SATA on 4400/4200/4500

FOLLOW-UP

Doing a SATA conversion in a 1U 4 drive unit that uses hot swap drive trays and RAID arrays is not as simple as it sounds. It is not easy. You need it done the right way with the right components or you end up with a mess that is not reliable for your precious data or some jerry-rigged octopus of a unit sitting on your shelf. BUT! This is what people like me and a few others are here for, to come up with the solutions needed and make it a simple 1, 2, 3, operation for the average user.

Doing a SATA conversion for the 4400/4200/4500/15000 is a big deal! I hope after all this reading you can see this now if you didn’t before. For a home user or a small office, this can be a very great solution. But in the end, it is up to you to decide.

I have NOT presented the problems with accomplishing a SATA conversion or the solutions to those problem here, but I will follow up with this information if this message thread (article) generates interest here on the forum, but you must SPEAK UP! Suffice it to say, I have the solutions and it can be done, easily enough for the average user.

Now I did my part in explaining it as I have been asked to do. No, I didn't do all this to hear myself talk, I did it because I was asked to. The rest is up to you all to provide feedback on your ideas and opinions.

YOUR TURN!
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Unread 03-28-2010, 09:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

As Andy has said this is his opinions so NO BASHING. If you agree fine if not fine. You can post your opinions too.

What Andy has said makes perfect sense to me. PATA HD are getting more expensive even the smaller capacities.

I have tried the FreeNAS, yes it does work, but if you have a problem you loose every thing in my testing. So to some it may work fine. I find using one of my old PC's with Windows OS and make the drive shared is more reliable and easier. But if you deal with MS you have to deal with all of the problems that associate with it. So I'm staying with my faithful 4500. I still use my 2200 because it is quiet and work for my main desktop pc. But it has problems with newer OS's in a big way.

Fitting SATA to PATA is not a easy task in the confined space of a 4500 sled. Then you have to have one that will not crap out during heavy use and handles hot sinking. Then I think most SATA Converters are not design for 24/7 operation. I know from past experience it takes time to build and fully test hardware.

If a set of converters cost us $400 (100/sled) it will still be cheaper than buying 1/2 or less capacity PATA drives.
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Link to SnapOS FAQ's http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=13820
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Unread 03-29-2010, 07:06 AM   #10
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue68f100 View Post
If a set of converters cost us $400 (100/sled) it will still be cheaper than buying 1/2 or less capacity PATA drives.
I can assure you David, a set of custom adapters would cost a lot less than that! Not even anywhere near that price range.

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Unread 03-29-2010, 09:46 AM   #11
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

I agree with the points made here by Phoenix32 and blue68f100. It's a great opportunity for those who would like to upgrade older GOS units to the SATA hard drive format. And it very well may apply to the Snap14000 too. I have to test to be 100% sure, but I'm 90% sure it will work.
Some might look at this and say...I'll just go out and buy one of those cheap converters" Well, you can do this, but I assure you it will not work. Not enough space in the sled for one reason.
As I understand it, Phoenix32 has developed a custom converter that will fit in the sled with higher quality components to match or exceed the GOS units hardware.

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Unread 03-29-2010, 04:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitor View Post
It's a great opportunity for those who would like to upgrade older GOS units to the SATA hard drive format.
IMO, this is not just for those who already have one of these units, but a solution that will open up a great option for those looking for some mass storage also. A better solution than is available without this conversion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitor View Post
Some might look at this and say...I'll just go out and buy one of those cheap converters" Well, you can do this, but I assure you it will not work. Not enough space in the sled for one reason.
As I understand it, Phoenix32 has developed a custom converter that will fit in the sled with higher quality components to match or exceed the GOS units hardware.
You have no idea how right you are on this, LOL. I would say "customized" rather than "custom".

But, this is information for a later topic. First we have to see here if there is enough interest for me to put more time in getting into the details of it all. Let's hope we get some more posts here soon.
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Unread 03-30-2010, 05:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix32 View Post
I can assure you David, a set of custom adapters would cost a lot less than that! Not even anywhere near that price range.

Andy, I was just pointing out the cost differences between the SATA an PATA. Show even at the $100/ea price is was/is still cheaper by the time you purchase the drives.
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Link to SnapOS FAQ's http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=13820
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Unread 03-30-2010, 08:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

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Andy, I was just pointing out the cost differences between the SATA an PATA. Show even at the $100/ea price is was/is still cheaper by the time you purchase the drives.

LOL, I knew that David.

I just wanted to be sure someone else reading this did not get the wrong idea and think you had some inside track info indicating it was that high.

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Unread 04-01-2010, 04:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Well, 4 days and near 200 views later, only 2 other people said anything at all.

I am starting think noody wants this.


Do you guys even want me to complete this? Yes? No?

Do you guys even want the end result for use? Yes? No?

Does anyone care? Yes? No?
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Unread 04-01-2010, 06:09 PM   #16
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

I'll give you a Hell yes!!!

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Come on people....are you a live? Don't be shy... Speak your mind.



Quote:
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Well, 4 days and near 200 views later, only 2 other people said anything at all.

I am starting think noody wants this.


Do you guys even want me to complete this? Yes? No?

Do you guys even want the end result for use? Yes? No?

Does anyone care? Yes? No?
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Unread 04-01-2010, 08:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

I'm very interested, I just sold off my 4000 and one of my 4500's last week and was just going to move to Dell 745n's but I'd much rather keep some 4400's and 4500 alive than switch to storage server 2003. I can sell off my 4TB 745n and have enough left over to upgrade my 4500 and grab one more 4400.
2TB drives are out at about the same price 500GB IDE's were when I built my 2TB 4500 so I'm all ears.
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Unread 04-01-2010, 11:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

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2TB drives are out at about the same price 500GB IDE's were when I built my 2TB 4500 so I'm all ears.
And that is part of the main point.
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Unread 04-02-2010, 09:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitor View Post

Come on people....are you a live? Don't be shy... Speak your mind.
alive but busy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix32 View Post
Do you guys even want me to complete this? Yes? No?

Do you guys even want the end result for use? Yes? No?

Does anyone care? Yes? No?
yes!
yes!
yes!

I also agree with the earlier posts. A point on the old snapOS servers. They still make good redundant backup units for the Guardian units. Throwing 4 drives on a 2000 is a cheap solution, even at the expense of speed.

...4 2.5 SATA drives would fit in the standard housing (using commercial SATA/IDE adptrs) with power to spare from the stock PSU. Ima Pheonix convert to SATA Snaps....

I'm not sure if this forum is proof of viability for your project, my friend. Sometimes you simply need to trust your gut and throw some out for sale. I'm assuming you will do it for yourself anyway?
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Unread 04-02-2010, 01:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

I'm not sure how may people (home users) have these more Expensive GOS units. Since most learned that you need to have a complete working unit including sleds to get one up and running. There was a span when over 50% sold on eBay did not have sleds/or even a working HD to boot the unit. When corporations surplussed these units they pulled sleds and drives and threw them into the crusher. They were more concern make sure any and all data stored on the HD were destroyed. Not on resale value, since by now most had written off the equipment.
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1 Snap 4500 - 1.6T (4 x 400gig Seagates), Raid5,
1 Snap 4200 - 4.0T (4 x 2gig Seagates), Raid5, Using SATA converts from Andy

Link to SnapOS FAQ's http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=13820
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Unread 04-02-2010, 06:04 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

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A point on the old snapOS servers. They still make good redundant backup units for the Guardian units. Throwing 4 drives on a 2000 is a cheap solution, even at the expense of speed.
Somewhat true, but only to a tipping point. If you are trying to do 3TB, 4TB, 20TB, you just can't do it at the sacrifice of speed. Calculate out how long it would take to backup and compare 4TB of data at the actual speeds you get from a 2000 or 4000. It just isn't practical. So as I said, yes, but only up to a point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by otoc View Post
...4 2.5 SATA drives would fit in the standard housing (using commercial SATA/IDE adptrs) with power to spare from the stock PSU.
As I mentioned in another message thread, 2.5" drives are not much help. Some, but not much, IMO.

2.5" drives are slower, they have a higher price, and are limited in size. Kind of defeats the purposes of why we want to convert in the first place. Yes, they can be had in larger sizes, but still limited and at a cost premium. See?


Quote:
Originally Posted by otoc View Post
I'm not sure if this forum is proof of viability for your project, my friend. Sometimes you simply need to trust your gut and throw some out for sale. I'm assuming you will do it for yourself anyway?
You may very well be right, but it is the only real central place for the Snap Servers and with over 1000 reads on the subject here with this little response, it is an indicator.

That, and for me, it was never really about marketing and/or profits. It was about solving a problem of high quality mass storage at a level the average home or small office user could find value with. A huge hole out there in my opinion. Not a market hole, but rather a black hole for users like many of us are.

Of course I will do this for myself. Duh! LOL. But much of this project has been making it so that the average person could do it too and to share with others (I was taught the golden rule). But if others are not interested, then why bother? Right? I have it solved 100% already for myself. That is a done deal. My recent and majority of effort has all be in simplification, drop in, for others.


Disclaimer on the last part: I live on a small income, it would shock most of you if you knew how low. I do refurbish and then sell units on eBay on occasion, but I am not a big eBay type or have it as a business. I only do it here and there and only to help a VERY LITTLE now and then with survival and pay for my equipments. I do not make much on it at all. Very very little.

Part of this project has been also so that I can use less expensive, higher performance, larger drives in these refurbished units I do now and then to make them more cost effective and valuable for the buyer. But in the end, there will still be very little money in it for me. I am not a business man, nor do I want to become one. Not that there is anything wrong with them, it's just not who I am.
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Unread 04-02-2010, 06:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue68f100 View Post
I'm not sure how may people (home users) have these more Expensive GOS units. Since most learned that you need to have a complete working unit including sleds to get one up and running. There was a span when over 50% sold on eBay did not have sleds/or even a working HD to boot the unit. When corporations surplussed these units they pulled sleds and drives and threw them into the crusher. They were more concern make sure any and all data stored on the HD were destroyed. Not on resale value, since by now most had written off the equipment.
David, I am not sure if I agree with you on the how many have them part. When we got into them, that ws true, no doubt at all. But they have come down in price a very long ways since then, have been more complete units, and also have migrated down for people from work. As you have seen, there are a lot more people on this forum talking about GOS units than Snap OS units anymore. GOS units were almost unheard of on here when we got them.
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Unread 04-04-2010, 04:59 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Well, I have to admit, after 2000 views on this topic (2 message threads), and only 5 people even making a comment, I am seriously disappointed.

Some have said that not enough people have these units.

Some have said this community here on the forum is too small.

But I say, if it was worth 2000 views, more than 5 could reply, they just choose not to.

- If you read these message threads and could not bother to spend a few seconds of your time for a response, then I won't bother to spend any more of my time working on it, explaining it, or otherwise helping you with it.

- If you did, I might send you a note when I get around to it, maybe, after I put some 4TB, 6TB, and 8TB Snap Servers up on eBay and get my value back.

- If I am talking to myself here, then it doesn't matter does it?


MODERATOR - You can please feel free to delete these two message threads I started on SATA conversion since they are a waste of time and space and I do not intend to complete them. Your call...
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Unread 04-04-2010, 09:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

Well, I'm disappointed.
I'm still interested in this project.
I still think you should finish the "Why SATA.."

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Unread 04-05-2010, 04:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Why SATA on 4400/4200/4500?

I was asked to give a short explaination, so here it is, along with an answer for Bitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitor View Post
Well, I'm disappointed.
I'm still interested in this project.
I still think you should finish the "Why SATA.."
You're disappointed? Think how I feel after all this effort.

I did finish the "Why" part of the conversation. It was just all the details on how to go about it I left out, and I am not going to do that part now. Too much effort for people who don't care.


The real short version of the rest is this is (and why I am dropping it);

- The only real solution (for many reasons) is to use a PATA to SATA Adapter.

- You will have to go through a crap ton of various adapters to get even close. I looked at over 100 different adapters (limited only by what might work), and ended up testing over 25 of them.

- You will find many work like crap, many work even less than crap, a few work okay, but are not reliable, and even fewer work well at all, the way they should. At least for this application.

- You will find that NONE of the adapters, much less the very few that work well, will work as a drop in solution. Modification must to be done to the adapters and/or the trays to make it work out at all.


I did all this part of the work and expense for you, including what modifications had to be done and were feasable.

To make it a drop in solution, I would need to use an electronics Fab facility to do some changes that had to be done, along with work on each adapter myself. And to do it without modifying the trays or the Snap itself in any way. Using a Fab means money. It also means to be cost effective at all, you need to do 100+ adapters. I can use X number of those myself, but the rest has to be for other people.

With only 5 people out of at least 200 (less than 3%) even bothering to reply after they read the messages, that indicates there will not be enough interest in getting the rest of the 100+ adapters done (4 per snap unit). I am sure as hell not going to front the money on my very low income (Less than 18K/year) for people who can't even bother taking a few seconds to reply.

No Interest = No Fab

No Fab = No drop in solution, at least not without 3+ hours work per adapter by me by hand

No drop in solution = No point in doing


I can do this one unit at a time for myself without the fab and recover my costs selling the unit. So no biggie. Other than 75% of my time and costs were in trying to make this a drop in solution for other people (what a waste). But in any case, there just isn't any point in doing it for only a couple people. It would not be cost effective.

There... Now you have your answers.

If someone else wants to run with it, I say have fun, and good luck. You're gonna need it...
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