Talk about choking the inlet!

[BillA]

hey, Cathar the word-smith

"clue sucking noobs" and "net clue" (factor)
got to be phrases for the decade

OCers (OCF to me is Owens Corning Fiberglas) has different goals, greatest pleasure for greatest number
the demographics say it all, leave 'em be - no one HAS to post there ?

and for the rude and obsessive there is procooling

[IMOG]

Originally Posted by unregistered

"clue sucking noobs" and "net clue" (factor)
got to be phrases for the decade

I too extracted thorough enjoyment from the terminology he engineered there in order to communicate his point. "Net clue".

[BalefireX]

I think the most important thing to watch is the delta Clue.

[freeloadingbum]

A possible solution at the OC forums to reduce the "clue sucking noob" effect on the ambient clue rate could be to have a restricted section with specific requirements before access is granted (100 question test for instance)

[Joe Camel]

damn id love to do some quoting out of this thread a rip a few of you a "new one" but ill keep most of this pent up anger to myself and just say this...we were ALL noobs at one time, we all tried things that didnt work and we all learned from those experiments.

part of the problem here is that the people who want to water cool are people who like to do things different from the masses...right? but how different are you if all you do is get a caprice HC, Mag3, and a RBX WB and have a loop just like 50 other people? its in our nature to try to be different/better and that leads to things like AudiMan's loop or MY 2loop setup.

side note, if we didnt have all these noobs spending money on parts, how many WCing company's would either not be in existence, much smaller than they are now, or bankrupt?

[pHaestus]

side note, if we didnt have all these noobs spending money on parts, how many WCing company's would either not be in existence, much smaller than they are now, or bankrupt?

As a counterpoint, how much further along would the wcing industry be if all those "noob" consumers were better-educated?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Joe Camel

damn id love to do some quoting out of this thread a rip a few of you a "new one" but ill keep most of this pent up anger to myself and just say this...we were ALL noobs at one time, we all tried things that didnt work and we all learned from those experiments.

part of the problem here is that the people who want to water cool are people who like to do things different from the masses...right? but how different are you if all you do is get a caprice HC, Mag3, and a RBX WB and have a loop just like 50 other people? its in our nature to try to be different/better and that leads to things like AudiMan's loop or MY 2loop setup.

side note, if we didnt have all these noobs spending money on parts, how many WCing company's would either not be in existence, much smaller than they are now, or bankrupt?

HA, when I was a noob I had an excuse to be an ignorant fool. There was nearly no information available about water cooling. Today there are hundreds of sites and an immeasurable amount of info on the net to educate one's self on the subject. People that are really interested in WCing don't ask questions when they can easily be found anywhere or they start work for them selfs. I made my first WB and system before I knew forums existed. I took what little info was available and went to work. Now days people want it handed to them on a silver platter. "Give me all your knowledge you gained over the years now" is what they generally ask.


Trying to be different is one thing. Being a complete fool ignoring all logical information (like putting the inlet in the proper spots) is called stupidity not ignorance as the information is available but ignored.

On a side note, being we have all these ignorant/stupid noobs buying WC stuff the market is getting filled with fluff non working items to no benefit to anyone but the person selling them.

[infinity9]

Well considering Apple, Sony and Alienware all have watercooling PC's on the market now, I can assure you that there will be many more noobs coming and alot more junk dumped on the market. I can't count the number of people that have asked (normal non-computer people) if I have seen the Sony watercooled at Best Buy. Our company is looking into carrying some entry -level watercooling but I have fought hard against it. So far stuff like Evercool has been mentioned. I will personally be dealing with quite a few of the same basic questions you guys are complaining about on a daily basis, not like I don't already answer 100 stupid questions a day anyway.

[freeloadingbum]

Originally Posted by Joe Camel

we were ALL noobs at one time, we all tried things that didnt work and we all learned from those experiments.

I agree but you also need to find a way to keep the more experienced people stimulated or there won't be anybody to help the noobs except other noobs. A restricted section might help solve this problem. You could also require that members must help a given number of noobs to maintain posting access to the restricted section (some kind of point system perhaps)

[pHaestus]

You can't MAKE people be helpful. You also can't make the uninformed read. Such is life. Googling should be taught in schools; would solve a lot of this. I get the impression a lot of people have never actually dug up the answer to a question by themselves (and posting the question on a forum DOESNT count).

The above comment is general and not specific to OCers btw

[infinity9]

What gets me though is doing google searches and finding people posting questions on boards I've never heard of. Now how do they find these boards but cant find a simple answer?

[jaydee]

Type "water cooling guide" into google and see what happens.

[Althornin]

I must say, I read and lurked here, at OC, and several other sites for months before starting my own first watercooling project.
I didnt ask questions, because the answers were already there.
I read, and learned, and didnt clog up the forums with useless posts.
So when i set up my system, i knew what i was getting into, and i never had a problem.
Most people are unwilling to do this.

They want the answers now, and given to them, because they feel that thier time is worth more than anyone elses.

[IMOG]

Originally Posted by freeloadingbum

A possible solution at the OC forums to reduce the "clue sucking noob" effect on the ambient clue rate could be to have a restricted section with specific requirements before access is granted (100 question test for instance)

Nice suggestion, and the input is appreciated. However its a necessity to keep in mind the logistics of a forum the size of OCF. We have 1000's of active users. Pulling off ANYTHING on an individual member by member basis would be a huge undertaking. And administering a "test" doesn't seem plausible.

Really, what people like greenman and some others have been asking for in OCF, and what they haven't gotten there, and which is likely a source of frustration with them in atleast some small way, is a "Research and Development Forum". They had been calling it a technical discussion forum when they suggested such a thing, and then the issue came up of the varying definitions of what qualifies as "technical discussion". We had tech discussion before and it was a major drain on mod resources, many daily threads needed moved after being placed wrong and overall the threads never ended up being overwhelmingly technical. Calling it a "research and development forum" might send a more clear message to people of what belongs there, but I'm not sure if it would work or not.

Originally Posted by Althornin

I must say, I read and lurked here, at OC, and several other sites for months before starting my own first watercooling project.
I didnt ask questions, because the answers were already there.
I read, and learned, and didnt clog up the forums with useless posts.
So when i set up my system, i knew what i was getting into, and i never had a problem.
Most people are unwilling to do this.

They want the answers now, and given to them, because they feel that thier time is worth more than anyone elses.

I commend you, as thats the way things ought to best be done if the enthusiast community is going to make any consdireable advancements in the short term. However, its just not the nature of people on the internet.

Everyone wants it easy, and they want it yesterday. It's the overwhelming nature of people on the internet.

I don't see it as though they are making the statement that they think their time is more important. I see it as a statement that they just don't yet care to get their hands dirty with things. They haven't yet fully departed from the outlook of the average computer user - they just want something to work, they don't care to understand it completely, they just want it to do what they want.

I doesn't affect me if I tell them what I know, and it is a charitable action to do so. If they don't want to understand it, and just want the basics of how to get it done, I see nothing gained from denying them of that. And honestly, this is what keeps me and thousands of other people in the IT industry employed - the refusal for the average person to care about understanding the simple technology they work with.

Ultimately, I feel this way because I cannot see the point in ultimately taking the stance of the psuedo-scientist who is too pompous or
"busy" to be bothered with those who do not yet understand what he does.

After all, what is it that we do around here?

We water cool our computers, spend countless hours researching and tweaking, and all to get a performance improvement no larger than what could be attained by going out and buying it next week. We use car parts, commercial tubing, and hobbyist equipment to cool our computers.

If we don't want to share what we figure out from the countless hours we spend doing this, then what are we gaining from it?

@pH: I wanted to thank you for allowing us to hold this discussion. While some may find this dramatic, I think its beneficial for everyone involved to objectively analyze what we all do around here.

[BillA]

da capo
sucking at mamma's teat

OCers DID try to keep (pander ?) to some of these 'know-it-alls'; but there is a dual problem:
- often the 'innocent' question may be the most provocative in terms of the info elicited, no way to predict
- and the 'know-it-alls' seldom argue, a couple of posts, pfft

OCers is not 'bad', just different

[infinity9]

Imog, if you guys really want to improve the situation at OCF I think the first step will be to get rid of forum rankings. More times than not, people with tons of stars or whatever dont generally know as much as their ranking would imply (at any forum). I've encountered so many senior forum members that still are quite misled so what does forum ranking really mean? I do think you should have a few people that are labeled as helpers but the star idea lends to people posting crap, which is obviously going on, especially with the 100 posts FS/T rule. If people want to help the only reward they need is knowing they helped someone, stars are for 3rd graders :P

[SlaterSpeed]

Originally Posted by IMOG

Really, what people like greenman and some others have been asking for in OCF, and what they haven't gotten there, and which is likely a source of frustration with them in atleast some small way, is a "Research and Development Forum". They had been calling it a technical discussion forum when they suggested such a thing, and then the issue came up of the varying definitions of what qualifies as "technical discussion". We had tech discussion before and it was a major drain on mod resources, many daily threads needed moved after being placed wrong and overall the threads never ended up being overwhelmingly technical. Calling it a "research and development forum" might send a more clear message to people of what belongs there, but I'm not sure if it would work or not.

Exactly my thoughts. Im not 100% sure it will work but it needs to be atleast given a try.

Originally Posted by freeloadingbum

I agree but you also need to find a way to keep the more experienced people stimulated or there won't be anybody to help the noobs except other noobs.

Again exactly my thoughts

Its not about stopping noobs from asking questions its about providing something to keep the people answering the questions interested.

[jaydee]

First step is to get mods that know more about the forum their modding than the newbs asking questions.....

[pHaestus]

To those with suggestions for OCers.com; have you considered that maybe the way things are there is how the owners/moderators WANT it to be? Not every forum has to be run the way that is considered best by you.

I personally like somethingawful's approach to running a huge forum and dealing with newcomers: They charge $10 to join and if you violate a rule then you are banned and can rejoin for another $10. Rules include "don't be a ****ing retard". So you can act as stupidly as as you want but it will cost you a lot of money.

A couple of good things to come out of this thread:
1) I asked Joe to turn off post count again (he has to find it in the vbb3 options but no problem)
2) I crawled overclockers.com so their articles also pop up as hits in our search database now (the descriptions are still garbage unfortunately)

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

To those with suggestions for OCers.com; have you considered that maybe the way things are there is how the owners/moderators WANT it to be? Not every forum has to be run the way that is considered best by you.

Sure, but so what? :shrug:

[SpeeDj]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

I went fishing all day and just got home to find I missed out to. probably a good thing though. I am now way to tired to get into it.

I was browsing OCF one day and happened on a thread where a guy asked asked about corrosion with AL and Brass. Well a senior member just happen to reply to the guy saying it was no problem at all an no corrosion would happen. Well I set the guy strait and a less than an hour later my post was edited and I was threatened to be banned. The mods suck there from personal experience. SpeedDJ included as he was the one that threatened to ban me. That and a few other things turned me way away from the forums.

I will never post on that site again.

Man I love you Jaydee, as many will know, your version of "setting someone straight" usually borderlines on fanaticism and outright flaming. As you very well know we don't tolerate that behaviour at OCForums, we are not there for sandbox temper tantrum fits, If a senior was indeed giving false information such as stating there are no corrosion issues with AL and Brass then yes, the record needed to be set straight, but as people seem to have lost all sense of patience when dealing with newcomers most of those who try to set it straight shouldn't post to begin with because most of their posts end up being nothing short of flame baiting. Now Jaydee I know you have a head on your shoulders, I know you've done some great work for the WC'ing community but that doesn't mean you need to approach every situation with out and out attitude. What point do you think gets across to someone truly trying to learn ? I don't have to answer that question because you know the answer as well as I do.

I am not a moderator to be loved, I am a moderator to help a community and to keep it growing. In this time of stagnant computer industries where nothing truly innovative is coming out, it's hard to keep interest in the same old same old. When was the last hot innovation in Extreme cooling? Months ago, maybe even longer, it's been a long time since anyone has truly done anything 'new' and 'exciting'. One would've though that X86-64 would've sparked a lot of interest and learning to be had, but it hasn't really, to me that's the real shame. Now lets' look at another thing:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

First step is to get mods that know more about the forum their modding than the newbs asking questions.....

So you are saying right there that our mods are clueless ? Jaydee I still feel in my heart that you could do so much more if you dropped the superiority complex and maybe remember what it was like back when you were asking for advice on mills, or finding out the differences between two dissimilar metals and their corrosion properties. You want to know the great things about newbs Jaydee ? We've all been there, you weren't born knowing everything there was to know about flow dynamics or metal characteristics, you learned it. What's so wrong with asking you to impart some of that knowledge with those around you who would like to soak it up but get met with "Stop being a newb" or "Read the stickies". Either you want to help people learn more and become bigger contributors or you just want to sit back and watch the downfall of it all.

Overclocking and Watercooling are communities, we give back for the knowledge that we earn because if we don't all we are is thiefs and a thief is no better than being the newb that you criticize. I for one am working to affect a positive change at OCForums, if you don't want to be around for it so be it, I cannot force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. But the next time you want to ridicule me, think about the job it is that I actually do for the community, they are my concern, not the sandbox I'm better than you and I'm king of the hill mentalities.

It's about community, plain and simple

J

[IMOG]

Originally Posted by infinity9

Imog, if you guys really want to improve the situation at OCF I think the first step will be to get rid of forum rankings. More times than not, people with tons of stars or whatever dont generally know as much as their ranking would imply (at any forum). I've encountered so many senior forum members that still are quite misled so what does forum ranking really mean? I do think you should have a few people that are labeled as helpers but the star idea lends to people posting crap, which is obviously going on, especially with the 100 posts FS/T rule. If people want to help the only reward they need is knowing they helped someone, stars are for 3rd graders :P

Thanks for another suggestion. This has been brought up on the forums previously also. It's always been said, and whenever its brought up I believe what is pretty much stated was that stars don't mean anything, unless they are blue, green, or red, which represents staff... but quantity does not reflect quality. Stars are a rough, quick way to reference how long someone has been around the forums. I think they do their job on average - most people who have been around long enough to acrew a good deal of stars reflect well back onto the forums, but not all.

As far as actual senior members - they aren't senior members for knowing everything, they are senior members for being knowledgeable and showing a dedication and willingness to share what they know, while setting a good example within the rules of the forum. Post count has nothing to do with seniorship.

Having an intimate perspective on the forums, I can say that the 100 posts rule for classifieds has worked terrificly. People who are spamming to get there receive swift justice from the mods, and its fairly easy to spot. Our classifieds are some of the safest to trade on anywhere - with the size of our forums, that is a definite testament to the work of the mods there, and the effectiveness of our rules.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by SpeeDj

Man I love you Jaydee, as many will know, your version of "setting someone straight" usually borderlines on fanaticism and outright flaming. As you very well know we don't tolerate that behaviour at OCForums, we are not there for sandbox temper tantrum fits, If a senior was indeed giving false information such as stating there are no corrosion issues with AL and Brass then yes, the record needed to be set straight, but as people seem to have lost all sense of patience when dealing with newcomers most of those who try to set it straight shouldn't post to begin with because most of their posts end up being nothing short of flame baiting. Now Jaydee I know you have a head on your shoulders, I know you've done some great work for the WC'ing community but that doesn't mean you need to approach every situation with out and out attitude. What point do you think gets across to someone truly trying to learn ? I don't have to answer that question because you know the answer as well as I do.

I am not a moderator to be loved, I am a moderator to help a community and to keep it growing. In this time of stagnant computer industries where nothing truly innovative is coming out, it's hard to keep interest in the same old same old. When was the last hot innovation in Extreme cooling? Months ago, maybe even longer, it's been a long time since anyone has truly done anything 'new' and 'exciting'. One would've though that X86-64 would've sparked a lot of interest and learning to be had, but it hasn't really, to me that's the real shame. Now lets' look at another thing:


So you are saying right there that our mods are clueless ? Jaydee I still feel in my heart that you could do so much more if you dropped the superiority complex and maybe remember what it was like back when you were asking for advice on mills, or finding out the differences between two dissimilar metals and their corrosion properties. You want to know the great things about newbs Jaydee ? We've all been there, you weren't born knowing everything there was to know about flow dynamics or metal characteristics, you learned it. What's so wrong with asking you to impart some of that knowledge with those around you who would like to soak it up but get met with "Stop being a newb" or "Read the stickies". Either you want to help people learn more and become bigger contributors or you just want to sit back and watch the downfall of it all.

Overclocking and Watercooling are communities, we give back for the knowledge that we earn because if we don't all we are is thiefs and a thief is no better than being the newb that you criticize. I for one am working to affect a positive change at OCForums, if you don't want to be around for it so be it, I cannot force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. But the next time you want to ridicule me, think about the job it is that I actually do for the community, they are my concern, not the sandbox I'm better than you and I'm king of the hill mentalities.

It's about community, plain and simple

J

All I hear is a bunch of "blah blah blah" so don't even bother to try and talk to me.

[freeloadingbum]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

You can't MAKE people be helpful. You also can't make the uninformed read.

You can make anybody do anything with the right motivation. You proved that yourself with the "somethingawlful" example.

[SpeeDj]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

All I hear is a bunch of "blah blah blah" so don't even bother to try and talk to me.

Thanks for yet again proving my point Jaydee

J