Squirrel By Balinju & Hara - Page 3

Balinju · 01-05-2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nick C
get it aas thin as possible... .05 of an inch is a little too thin, but .07 or even .08 inches is about right. I've had great sucess with those depths.

thank you very much for your suggestion, I was going to use a 2mm base

bigben2k · 01-05-2003, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Balinju
What do you think if I add like a cross in the middle, so that the centre circle is divided in 4 quadrants??

Would this increase or decrease the performace of the block.
But if I do so, I have to forget the jet inpingement, true or false??

Right on.

Either you go for straight jet, or for coolant speed and fins.

You could theoretically refine a block to do both: quad jets in a cross, but you'd have lots of stagnant areas.

Another alternative would be to create an irregular surface in the middle, and keep the jet.

Yet another one: come up with some kind of turbulator, for fins or for no fins.

Either way, your design looks OK.

Balinju · 01-05-2003, 03:34 PM

This is what I meant with the middle cross.

What do u think bigben2k is the best, this or without a cross and with the jet??

I chose the cross to be 1mm wide, is it a good choise or not?

bigben2k · 01-06-2003, 06:52 AM

It's up to you.

The fins look fine, but now you're facing the same problem I am: how to make sure that the flow is going to be both fast, and reach the baseplate, at the cross.

In my case, I'll be trying a plastic flow seperator, something like a cross shaped blade.

Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing anyone try a jet inpingement in a block (except for direct-die cooling), except maybe for BillA, but I don't think he posted anything about it here.

jaydee · 01-07-2003, 08:11 PM

I think the hardest thing about this block is going to be milling it. bigbens block will not be nearly as impossible to mill as this one. I am pretty certain I could do bigbens but this one I could not and I am not sure any mill can. The reason is the slop in the mills axis and the ever so slight vibration when cutting. If the cut is strait it doesn't matter as much but when you are cutting a curve it is much more of a problem as it vibrates more side to side as both axis are moving and with fins that small the endmill will just vibrate right through the fin into the other channel. I experimented with this a bit when I made my mini spiral and I could not cut a curve with anything less than a 1/16" channel wall or it would collapse the channel wall. If I ran as slow as the CNC software would let it run then I could get away with 1/16". And that was with aluminum aswell which is 10 times easier to mill. Copper vibrates even more as it is a lot denser. I need to get some 1/16" endmills one of these days and see what it can do. It seems the smaller the end mill the better my mill likes it.

Mikey Boo · 01-07-2003, 08:30 PM

instead of goin for a perfect curve... could u not do a stright cut, then change direction buy lets say 30 degrees, and repeat the process? sure its not perfect but u wood still have the concept you want and it might be easier too. but hey what the hell do i know, ive never worked with a mill either. its just a noob idea here

bigben2k · 01-08-2003, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
I think the hardest thing about this block is going to be milling it. bigbens block will not be nearly as impossible to mill as this one. I am pretty certain I could do bigbens but this one I could not and I am not sure any mill can. The reason is the slop in the mills axis and the ever so slight vibration when cutting. If the cut is strait it doesn't matter as much but when you are cutting a curve it is much more of a problem ...

With the same argument, a Spir@l would be very difficult, no?

jaydee · 01-08-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
With the same argument, a Spir@l would be very difficult, no?

It would be just as hard with that small of an endmill. i used a 1/4" endmill to make this spiral:

The smaller the endmill the more flex it will have in it and the harder it will be to make a thin channel wall while attempting to do a curve. Strait lines are not so bad as there is only force applied in one direction causing less vibration, but while doing a curve you have force applied from different angles causing more vibration and ultimatly collapsing the channel wall. 1/16" channel wall was as good as I could get with a 1/4" I think I could do it with a 1/8" but not likely with anything smaller. I think the endmill would break anyway. That is a lot of force applied trying to make a curve. If you had CNC and a lot of patience and a few weeks to mill it is definatly possible. You just need to run extreamly shollow passes and ALOT of them. That would probably be the best bet. But if you did it that way just plan on making one.

I well equiped machine shop with the best and tightest equipment can probably do this. Although talking them into doing it is another story. And if they did it would cost you more body parts than you have.

I cannot find an easy, cheap solution for doing this, but I am by no means an expert on the subject. It would be best to take it to a real machine shop. And if they just laugh at you it can be done, but if you have to go to the hospital to remove one of their boots I wouldn't count on it.

If you want to go expensive I would try wire EDM.

bigben2k · 01-08-2003, 08:27 PM

It's easier to appreciate your work, from that perspective! Very nice!!! It might also explain the odd Maze2 channels!

While on the topic of "play"... if you use an endmill to make a straight channel, how much wider can you expect the cut to be? Can I assume that hand feeding will make a difference?

jaydee · 01-08-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
It's easier to appreciate your work, from that perspective! Very nice!!! It might also explain the odd Maze2 channels!

While on the topic of "play"... if you use an endmill to make a straight channel, how much wider can you expect the cut to be? Can I assume that hand feeding will make a difference?

it really depends on the mill and the software setting for the CNC. Most CNC softeware will attemp to compensate for whatever the user inputs. Mine it set to .003". If I make a .25" strait pass it usually comes out around .26" to .28" depending on how sharp the endmill is. The Spiral shown above ended up being .29"-.31" wide chanels depending on what angle it was cutting. It is odd that the mill will cut smoother going one direction than it will the other, but it kinda makes since as you are going against the rotation of the endmill in one direction. I colapsed the first 2 attemps and ended up having to double the amount of passes and going as slow as the CNC softeware would let me.

Doing it by hand can greatly improve results as you can feel when it starts to go to fast and slow down. But you need to have a good steady hand and/or adjustable power feed. My CNC software is limited in speed ajustment so the slowest setting is faster than I would like, especially for copper. But for strait cuts and small endmills I think it will do justy as good as more expensive mills as the endmill starts to become the weak point instead of the mill when using tiny endmills.

Balinju · 02-12-2003, 03:38 PM

what do you think of the new squirrel?? A pin in the middle have been added and also small 0.3mm hemispheres have been also added around the pin.

Any suggestions?? Do you think that it will perform well??

Balinju · 02-12-2003, 03:41 PM

a zoomed out picture

i think that jet imprigment is going to be used with this block. what do you suggest?

bigben2k · 02-12-2003, 03:50 PM

Did you happen to come across Nicozeg's design?

He's dodged the whole middle part aspect that you're facing, with a hard-to-mill solution.

Balinju · 02-12-2003, 04:00 PM

before my internet connection dropped for nearly 15 days, i saw his block, the very first drawing that he posted and i did not follow that thread.
i have to read it once so see what has come out, but actually my friend told me that those fins that i told him are not so difficult to mill (he is an engineer at the university of malta). I never told him exactly what there is in the middle.
do you think that it is difficult to cut, i mean what is in the middle, that 2mm in diameter cylinder and the small holes?? but do you think that it will perform well or not??

bigben2k · 02-12-2003, 04:23 PM

Oh I don't think there's any doubt: it'll perform very nicely.

I'd be tempted to say that you could cut those channels by flexing a band saw, but that would cut out any kind of central pin.

CNC is the only option left.

hara · 02-12-2003, 04:51 PM

Yeah, cnc we can get to.

LiquidRulez · 02-13-2003, 03:29 AM

I dont see how that block will be difficult to mill.

I know I can mill it......it would be slow going, but it can be done on a mill that is equipped with a no-backlash type drive.

Of course, my mill has this luxury , as jaydee's mill does not...So nothing to compensate for in arcs for my machine.
But for a few bucks he could convert it to more accurate ACME screws with antibacklash nuts and reduce the play considerably.
Or go the extra mile and convert to preloaded ballscrews.

Ive cut 1/16 "channels, 1/32 " apart and didnt have any of em collapse.

Of course I have alot more money in my mill than jaydee ,for instance, does........

hell , the price of my ballscrews cost enough to almost buy 2 sherline deluxe mills!

Balinju · 02-13-2003, 08:42 AM

we are going to use a cnc. the base is 2mm thick. it was 1.5mm but then i made it 2mm. What do you think would be the best between these two??

another thing, the channels are currently design @ 1.5mm but who is cutting the block told me that we have to go for 2mm because he can't find 1.5mm bits? would that reduce the performace or not??

bigben2k · 02-13-2003, 08:52 AM

The small endmills are hard to find. You can try www.robbjack.com (USA).

Your performance would only be affected if you alter the fin to channel cross section ratio.

jaydee · 02-13-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
I dont see how that block will be difficult to mill.

I know I can mill it......it would be slow going, but it can be done on a mill that is equipped with a no-backlash type drive.

Of course, my mill has this luxury , as jaydee's mill does not...So nothing to compensate for in arcs for my machine.
But for a few bucks he could convert it to more accurate ACME screws with antibacklash nuts and reduce the play considerably.

Mine has got anti backlash nuts? Also has compensation? All apart of the CNC conversion. But the slop I have is not in the drive screws it is in the table where the two peices slide. Anyway I would like to see anyone try and make this block with any mill!!! Good Luck! Now that you say it isn't going to be hard, I think we have a volunteer!

jaydee · 02-13-2003, 11:22 AM

Also if you think you can make 12 curved "1.5 Millimeters = 0.059055 Inches" channels that precisly more power to you.

Otherwise BS! I will be very happy to see YOU prove me wrong though!

hara · 02-13-2003, 12:47 PM

The machinist told us that he'd be able to cut it.

LiquidRulez · 02-13-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Mine has got anti backlash nuts? Also has compensation? All apart of the CNC conversion. But the slop I have is not in the drive screws it is in the table where the two peices slide. Anyway I would like to see anyone try and make this block with any mill!!! Good Luck! Now that you say it isn't going to be hard, I think we have a volunteer!

Sorry about that Jaydee....I forgot that you had told me about the table.My BAD

jaydee · 02-13-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116
Also if you think you can make 12 curved "1.5 Millimeters = 0.059055 Inches" channels that precisly more power to you.

Otherwise BS! I will be very happy to see YOU prove me wrong though!

I wasn't refering to your guy. I am sure he has pretty good equipment. I was refering to LiquidRulz. He talks alot of what he can do with his equipment but I have yet to see anything remotely covering it from him picture wise. Just trying to wedge some of his projects out of him.

Best way to get info is to push the ego button a bit.

jaydee · 02-13-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
Sorry about that Jaydee....I forgot that you had told me about the table.My BAD

The table on my Mill is rather oddly put together. I am not sure the one you had was similar to mine as it doesn't sound like it. Maybe an older version? Mine is pretty new and has been modified over the standard mill when it was converted. Sherline even makes a CNC version that is ready to convert and is different than the standard one's. This is what the company uses when they add their parts. It seems though that even the newest mills have changed a lot since I bought mine though. Luckily the iumportant parts are still changable and the same. I think my table is HOSED though. It is total shit. I have to eat crow on that for sure. I was taking it apart and it used some plastic slides to keep things tight that have a spring type metal "whatever" to keep the table tight. i will post some pics in a new thread. Going to give an overview of what NOT to buy I guess.

01-06-2003, 06:52 AM	#54
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	It's up to you. The fins look fine, but now you're facing the same problem I am: how to make sure that the flow is going to be both fast, and reach the baseplate, at the cross. In my case, I'll be trying a plastic flow seperator, something like a cross shaped blade. Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing anyone try a jet inpingement in a block (except for direct-die cooling), except maybe for BillA, but I don't think he posted anything about it here. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-07-2003, 08:30 PM	#56
Mikey Boo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 78	instead of goin for a perfect curve... could u not do a stright cut, then change direction buy lets say 30 degrees, and repeat the process? sure its not perfect but u wood still have the concept you want and it might be easier too. but hey what the hell do i know, ive never worked with a mill either. its just a noob idea here __________________ Watercoolin + a leak = a wet floor

01-08-2003, 08:27 PM	#59
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	It's easier to appreciate your work, from that perspective! Very nice!!! It might also explain the odd Maze2 channels! While on the topic of "play"... if you use an endmill to make a straight channel, how much wider can you expect the cut to be? Can I assume that hand feeding will make a difference? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-12-2003, 03:50 PM	#63
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Did you happen to come across Nicozeg's design? He's dodged the whole middle part aspect that you're facing, with a hard-to-mill solution. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-12-2003, 04:23 PM	#65
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Oh I don't think there's any doubt: it'll perform very nicely. I'd be tempted to say that you could cut those channels by flexing a band saw, but that would cut out any kind of central pin. CNC is the only option left. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

01-07-2003, 08:11 PM	#55
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I think the hardest thing about this block is going to be milling it. bigbens block will not be nearly as impossible to mill as this one. I am pretty certain I could do bigbens but this one I could not and I am not sure any mill can. The reason is the slop in the mills axis and the ever so slight vibration when cutting. If the cut is strait it doesn't matter as much but when you are cutting a curve it is much more of a problem as it vibrates more side to side as both axis are moving and with fins that small the endmill will just vibrate right through the fin into the other channel. I experimented with this a bit when I made my mini spiral and I could not cut a curve with anything less than a 1/16" channel wall or it would collapse the channel wall. If I ran as slow as the CNC software would let it run then I could get away with 1/16". And that was with aluminum aswell which is 10 times easier to mill. Copper vibrates even more as it is a lot denser. I need to get some 1/16" endmills one of these days and see what it can do. It seems the smaller the end mill the better my mill likes it.

02-12-2003, 04:00 PM	#64
Balinju Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 495	before my internet connection dropped for nearly 15 days, i saw his block, the very first drawing that he posted and i did not follow that thread. i have to read it once so see what has come out, but actually my friend told me that those fins that i told him are not so difficult to mill (he is an engineer at the university of malta). I never told him exactly what there is in the middle. do you think that it is difficult to cut, i mean what is in the middle, that 2mm in diameter cylinder and the small holes?? but do you think that it will perform well or not??

02-12-2003, 04:51 PM	#66
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	Yeah, cnc we can get to.

02-13-2003, 03:29 AM	#67
LiquidRulez Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In Hell Posts: 322	I dont see how that block will be difficult to mill. I know I can mill it......it would be slow going, but it can be done on a mill that is equipped with a no-backlash type drive. Of course, my mill has this luxury , as jaydee's mill does not...So nothing to compensate for in arcs for my machine. But for a few bucks he could convert it to more accurate ACME screws with antibacklash nuts and reduce the play considerably. Or go the extra mile and convert to preloaded ballscrews. Ive cut 1/16 "channels, 1/32 " apart and didnt have any of em collapse. Of course I have alot more money in my mill than jaydee ,for instance, does........ hell , the price of my ballscrews cost enough to almost buy 2 sherline deluxe mills!

02-13-2003, 08:42 AM	#68
Balinju Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 495	some questions we are going to use a cnc. the base is 2mm thick. it was 1.5mm but then i made it 2mm. What do you think would be the best between these two?? another thing, the channels are currently design @ 1.5mm but who is cutting the block told me that we have to go for 2mm because he can't find 1.5mm bits? would that reduce the performace or not??

02-13-2003, 08:52 AM	#69
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	The small endmills are hard to find. You can try www.robbjack.com (USA). Your performance would only be affected if you alter the fin to channel cross section ratio. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-13-2003, 11:22 AM	#71
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Also if you think you can make 12 curved "1.5 Millimeters = 0.059055 Inches" channels that precisly more power to you. Otherwise BS! I will be very happy to see YOU prove me wrong though! Last edited by jaydee116; 02-13-2003 at 11:32 AM.

02-13-2003, 12:47 PM	#72
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	The machinist told us that he'd be able to cut it.

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