Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > Testing and Benchmarking
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

Testing and Benchmarking Discuss, design, and debate ways to evaluate the performace of he goods out there.

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 12-01-2005, 01:45 PM   #26
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Yeh in that article linked you can see pH used what looks like ~30GA
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 03:07 PM   #27
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

I've got a Swissflow on the way from the UK (on a slow shipment); Bill, i'd be more than happy to loan it to you, before I even use it.

Was going to use it to corelate some flow readings from my turbine beast (Sponsler). ( http://wbta.us/forums/index.php?topic=57.0 ). You're welcome to borrow that one too.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 03:25 PM   #28
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

would be interesting to see the 3 compared
you going to provide the attachment pieces ?
sure, let me know

are we 'qualifying' a low cost flow meter ?
what do these cost Ben ?
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 03:35 PM   #29
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Bill:
Matrix Orbital and CrystalFontz both sell these DOW readers to the water cooling/overclocking crowd. If you make a few and can explain the process then we can probably get them into their regular product catalog.

How short can the sheath be though? Those 6-12" lengths I get on RTDs and thermistors are a bit excessive for plumbing into most people's PCs...

//edit: The nice thing about the probes is that since the entire thermometer is in the IC that wire gauge doesn't matter. I think both mfgrs that sell them to PC users use wire similar to fans, but that's overkill. Whatever works and will not affect the reading in anyway. I've used wrapping wire without problem.
4" sheath length leaves 3/4" protruding from those crosses in the cal thread
and those crosses would have to be used if caling them is to be avoided
I'm thinking of this as a test setup and not an end user device

not sure of the method to ensure a void free potting of the sensor in the tip
anyone done such ?
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 03:55 PM   #30
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

If you had a vacuum chamber it would be easy. apply the potting compound, suck it to a vacuum. It should pull most if not all air out of the compound.
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 04:12 PM   #31
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
would be interesting to see the 3 compared
you going to provide the attachment pieces ?
sure, let me know

are we 'qualifying' a low cost flow meter ?
what do these cost Ben ?
Does the Swissflow needs special attachments? Otherwise yes, I'll find attachments for the Sponsler.

Swissflow can be had for ~$50 US, got mine in a group buy for $32 (+ shipping from the UK).

I know of no other reasonably priced flowmeters that is commonly available, and economical.

The Sponsler was a lucky find on eBay at $42.

I'll advise once I have both the Swissflow and the fittings for the Sponsler.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 08:11 PM   #32
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

The Swissflows I got have BSP threads. They sent me some BSP to NPT adapters. They used to sell a barbed version but I don't know if they still do. I like my Swissflow other than it is restrictive and they recommend a 20 micron filter. I would be very interested in the results.

I pretty much have all this stuff mentioned in pH post and already used it in previous testing. Another bonus of the CF633 is it will read and log the Swissflow flow meter output aswell.

Only thing I disliked about the CF633 is the speed of the temp changes. That is why I ended up not using it for temps. I use my ColeParmer Unit with the YSI probe to help mount blocks. It scans so fast you can see the temps changing when adjusting the mounting pressure. Helps point out to much or to little pressure on one side.

The biggest problem I have with CPU testing is getting the CPU temp. Not to many can just get the IHS milled.

Last edited by jaydee; 12-01-2005 at 08:48 PM.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 08:33 PM   #33
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Darn, mine's not going to have any fittings. On to McMaster...

I hear you about milling the IHS. It's not an easy job, simply because you have to have a solid mill, and a beefy motor, to run a 1mm endmill, even though it's only a 0.6mm depth. I only know that Fettig is so equipped.

I suggested contracting someone to groove all of these IHS for us...
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 08:47 PM   #34
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
Darn, mine's not going to have any fittings. On to McMaster...

I hear you about milling the IHS. It's not an easy job, simply because you have to have a solid mill, and a beefy motor, to run a 1mm endmill, even though it's only a 0.6mm depth. I only know that Fettig is so equipped.

I suggested contracting someone to groove all of these IHS for us...
I could do it on mine but I am not going to simply because of liability and I don't have the time.

This brings me to the next question of the cost of the probe and the meter that it will take for this measurement?
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-01-2005, 10:14 PM   #35
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

I have a CF635 coming in the mail that I will get reviewed and posted in the next couple weeks (focusing on getting site work done still until then)
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 08:43 AM   #36
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

reality ck guys
look at those DOW sensor packages, good for air and water (in a sheath)
not gonna work in Incoherent's die sim or inlet into the top of an IHS
- there may be a thermistor soln, there is a known TC soln

jd
I buy Fluke 2190As all the time off eBay, avg ~$50 inc shipping plus $75 or so to cal
compare specs, best deal on the planet
you are presumably a more serious tester, but if you are unwilling to groove your test CPU; then with a guesstimated C and a guesstimated W what are your efforts worth ?
the whole point of this is to have a known temp related to the CPU temp on a known platform

an approach from the other side ?, what is a 'reasonable' cost for a CPU based thermal test setup ?

and if grooving the CPU is a deal-breaker, we should probably let this be and consider it a higher-end testing activity
note that the 775 has no pins, less fragile, and 'no known' internal TIM joint problems
(a CPU heat source, not your product endorsement jd)
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 09:41 AM   #37
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

"and if grooving the CPU is a deal-breaker, we should probably let this be and consider it a higher-end testing activity"

Hmm I thought avoiding higher end testing activity was the whole point?

For AMD you can tap into the diode like I do. Works ok I guess; I see nothing wrong with it anyway (lol?). My plan is to get an AMD64 "grooved" on top as per your specs and then publish offsets between die and IHS temps and watch them over time while I'm testing on this platform. Cost of that setup is $100 plus being able to solder and not being skeered to desolder pins from your 939 chip and resolder wires on it.

//edit: HONESTLY my old socketA setup was a pretty good example of a readily attainable test platform for everyone. Nothing too expensive in that package; it worked well enough for general use. It required a lot of fiddling of course and an eye for whether the instrumentation was still working properly I guess.
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 10:24 AM   #38
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

the 'fiddling part' is what we need to avoid
there must be a staight-forward means to verify a baseline, and very stable operation thereafter
the troubleshooting ability of 'reviewers' should be considered zip, yours is a high-end system by that definition pH

my comment about dropping this was intended for jd, if he won't consider grooving his IHS then he can make a heat die
(that will make a groove seem pretty attractive)
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 10:27 AM   #39
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

I think you need to see what people use now and get a feel for what they will do to improve it.

I can pretty much guarantee they will not:

1) Spend more than what is in their pocket
2) Send anything out for calibration or calibrate what they have
3) Mill their IHS
4) Solder pins
5) Use any methodology that takes more than an hour to test a block

The sites/people that are actually whiling to do anything to improve their test bench already do so. The rest just don't care. That is the way I see it anyway. I think the problem isn't so much in the test setup but the willingness to build it and learn how to troubleshoot it. pH has already laid the ground work for what can be done with his Socket A bench and it has been out for a year or 2 now? How many have adopted his work or have done similar? Can count the one's I know on one hand.

Let's face it most reviewers have no clue how to get anything resembling consistent results and many simply claim they need not bother with better methods.

Anyway we are already deep into the pockets for this setup not counting the computer itself. Already to much money.

CF633 + probes $150
Used Fluke calibrated $150
Usable pump $100
Flow meter $50
Radiator/Fan $25 (heater core style)
Misc. valves/plumbing $25

guess we are throwing out dP all together?

You are already at $500 conservatively.

Then add in a dedicated computer....
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 10:30 AM   #40
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
the 'fiddling part' is what we need to avoid
there must be a staight-forward means to verify a baseline, and very stable operation thereafter
the troubleshooting ability of 'reviewers' should be considered zip, yours is a high-end system by that definition pH

my comment about dropping this was intended for jd, if he won't consider grooving his IHS then he can make a heat die
(that will make a groove seem pretty attractive)
I am not saying I won't (although I won't because I don't need to), I am saying most don't have the ability to get it done. I don't think it is an option.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 10:31 AM   #41
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Not being willing to take more than an hour to test a block to me seems rather lame... to test a HSF I would assume it would take 3 or 4 hours of testing... to test a waterblock I would assume the same to do repeated tests to make sure your moutning is not fubar.
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 10:34 AM   #42
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
Not being willing to take more than an hour to test a block to me seems rather lame... to test a HSF I would assume it would take 3 or 4 hours of testing... to test a waterblock I would assume the same to do repeated tests to make sure your moutning is not fubar.
Exactly my point. However most tests I see done (that actually state times) are done in less than an hour. 30 mins usually. I don't even start taking temps for a hour or 2 on each mount. Have to get equilibrium established.

This brings me to my next question on who exactly is this thread intended for?
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 10:49 AM   #43
Joe
The Pro/Life Support System
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

This thread is intended to help bring an acceptable testing solution so that reviewer can get comparible data across websites, without having the massive expense and days of time it takes to test something.

3 or 4 hours are nothing compared to what a block would take to test at R+D levels. Hell it would take 3 hours to setup a test on high end gear.
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing...

ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.
Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 11:08 AM   #44
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
This thread is intended to help bring an acceptable testing solution so that reviewer can get comparible data across websites, without having the massive expense and days of time it takes to test something.

3 or 4 hours are nothing compared to what a block would take to test at R+D levels. Hell it would take 3 hours to setup a test on high end gear.
Ok so who are we talking to? Shouldn't the reviewers interested in such a bench be in the conversation? Otherwise we are talking to ourselfs with our own biases.

We need outside reviewers with their perspective on what they will and will not do and then work with that info. What seems simple to us is not so for them. That not only will give us a better idea what to look for but may also educate the reviewer on better methods to get the desired results. We can design this bench but out of 10 people using it you will get 10 different results if the testing methods/conditions are not the same.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 11:21 AM   #45
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

last line, post #1

but before we try to sell something we need to know if what we would propose:
works
is repeatable
at a tolerable cost

THEN address the notions of the reviewers
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 11:40 AM   #46
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

$500 is already more than most will pay IMO but carry on. We can give e-bay lessons I guess.

What happens if the CPU and socket gets discontinued?
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 12:49 PM   #47
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Well what of an open source testing rig similar to the setup incoherent made? We provide CNC drwgs and circuitboard schematics/parts lists/etc? We provide test results for a few reference blocks? Like the innovatek system but with better parts? In some ways this is actually easier than testing with a real CPU. And with a single platform then we have the ability to write detailed directions and usage notes too.

The problem I see there is what happens when a measurement is out of calibration? It's very hard to make this into a black box that'd run for years.

And if you send people to ebay as a start for surplus/used parts with no experience then I think they're doomed anyway.
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 12:53 PM   #48
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Hum... I see a digression in this thread, from one statement:
Quote:
I could do it on mine but I am not going to simply because of liability and I don't have the time.
Maybe you can expand on that JD?

You already have a heat die, we're just proposing to cap it off with a salvaged IHS. It has the advantage of reducing/eliminating the maintenance on the top surface of the CPU simulator. Plus, the temp measurement is done through an inexpensive thermocouple (measuring instrument aside).

If someone (another reviewer) wants to run tests with a real CPU, he can have it grooved, and wire into the CPU temp diode, just as pHaestus did.

I don't understand the objection here.

Bill suggests:
Quote:
I buy Fluke 2190As all the time off eBay, avg ~$50 inc shipping plus $75 or so to cal
Picking up the 2190A is easy. Having it calibrated is certainly up to the owner of the equipment, but it's relatively inexpensive, and validates the measurements. Heck, as stingy as I can be, even I would do it! Running a calibration procedure oneself is possible, but I've never done it, so I can't say with any kind of certainty that I would be able to do it successfully.

What I do know, is that we all need a starting point, e.g. a reference temperature measurement; ONE calibrated instrument does that. If you want to run your calibration procedure yourself after that, knock yourself out. I'm (barely) starting out with a 0.1 C graduated mercury thermometer, ranged from 19 to 27 deg C. $30, and I haven't taken a single temp measurement yet...
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 01:09 PM   #49
jaydee
Put up or Shut Up
 
jaydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
Hum... I see a digression in this thread, from one statement:

Maybe you can expand on that JD?

You already have a heat die, we're just proposing to cap it off with a salvaged IHS. It has the advantage of reducing/eliminating the maintenance on the top surface of the CPU simulator. Plus, the temp measurement is done through an inexpensive thermocouple (measuring instrument aside).

If someone (another reviewer) wants to run tests with a real CPU, he can have it grooved, and wire into the CPU temp diode, just as pHaestus did.

I don't understand the objection here.

Bill suggests:

Picking up the 2190A is easy. Having it calibrated is certainly up to the owner of the equipment, but it's relatively inexpensive, and validates the measurements. Heck, as stingy as I can be, even I would do it! Running a calibration procedure oneself is possible, but I've never done it, so I can't say with any kind of certainty that I would be able to do it successfully.

What I do know, is that we all need a starting point, e.g. a reference temperature measurement; ONE calibrated instrument does that. If you want to run your calibration procedure yourself after that, knock yourself out. I'm (barely) starting out with a 0.1 C graduated mercury thermometer, ranged from 19 to 27 deg C. $30, and I haven't taken a single temp measurement yet...
I thought we were trying to put together a CPU based test bench all reviewers could afford and operate.
jaydee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-02-2005, 01:12 PM   #50
Albigger
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: ohio
Posts: 140
Default Re: product testing today – who is being served ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Well what of an open source testing rig similar to the setup incoherent made? We provide CNC drwgs and circuitboard schematics/parts lists/etc? We provide test results for a few reference blocks? Like the innovatek system but with better parts? ...
Yeah agreed, but then reviewers have to spend time testing the ref. blocks (even if they have done so previously) and then spend time pulling their hair out when their setup gives diff. results?

Are you guys going to provide troubleshooting/support for them too?
Albigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...