product testing today – who is being served ?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by BillA

"If we start with one target, i.e. being able to measure a die/cpu temp accurately and repeatably within 1.0 deg C (which is rough, but it's a start), then I believe that the discussion can proceed."

3 lines of text and you fell off the rails
properly define the goal please

Ben
procooling does not need a position (there is no single CORRECT solution)
those wanting to do something will gather what info they need and proceed
you will have to make your own choices, then do battle with those wanting the temp from a different spot

Yes, the goal needs to be defined. What is the goal and why. I can think of 3 different goals all requiring 3 different solutions.

I thought the goal was posted in the first post by Bill of this thread. A platform all reviewers can use that is reasonably affordable.

The reasonably affordable part is the huge issue though. Some think $0 is reasonable and other may think $2K+ is reasonable.

This is why I stated what I did on post 44 http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...3&postcount=44

Then Bill states what he did in post 45 that really makes no sense to me. If we don't know what people are whiling to pay then how can we establish a platform?

Tolerable cost is in the eye of the reviewer not us. That is why I suggested getting the reviewers perspective on what they would pay for and then average the results and work with that.

As far as I can tell from reading hundreds of reviews over the years the reviewer is going to spend about $100 more than the cost of the computer at most. That is why I said what I said in post 39. We are at $500 in that post + the computer - dP. I do not see people spending that kind of money on their review bench.

If we are going to cater a bench to the reviewers then it will pretty much have to be a method to get the best results with just the computer itself with no additional hardware. Let's face it, most reviewers are not pH, BillA, Robotech or Roscal caliber and have no desire to be or have the time or resources to be.

[BillA]

I do not view $400 as unreasonable for a good temp
- Fluke 2190A plus TC plus cal = ~$150
- addl TCs for immersion and air plus selector switch = ~$50
groove IHS = $200 ?

to test wbs an addl $200 to 300 is needed for flow and pressure drop
- Foxboro 823DP plus cal = ~$100
- mag flow meter = $100 - 200

no bs on the mag meters, many available on eBay

if this is too much money, they can skip the testing part ?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by BillA

I do not view $400 as unreasonable for a good temp
- Fluke 2190A plus TC plus cal = ~$150
- addl TCs for immersion and air plus selector switch = ~$50
groove IHS = $200 ?

to test wbs an addl $200 to 300 is needed for flow and pressure drop
- Foxboro 823DP plus cal = ~$100
- mag flow meter = $100 - 200

no bs on the mag meters, many available on eBay

if this is too much money, they can skip the testing part ?

Who will pay $400-$500-$600 though. You I and a hand full others have no problem with that amount but we already paid that amount. If they could afford it they already would have IMO.

I agree they should skip testing but they are not going to.

[bigben2k]

The plan as presented by Bill is good; I approve.

The pricing might be off, but to each his own, for shopping around, and drawing on traded favors. It's $200 at a minimum, and there's no way around it. Any less would not have any kind of accuracy.

What you have then, is a platform for kit testing. A comparative kit testbench.

What's missing from the setup is an estimation of the accuracy and repeatability.

[BillA]

you are referring to W ?
lol

[bigben2k]

Am referring to:

Originally Posted by BillA

- Fluke 2190A plus TC plus cal = ~$150
- addl TCs for immersion and air plus selector switch = ~$50
groove IHS = $200 ?...

[BillA]

inst + TC,
mounting,
the normal stuff

[jaydee]

Not sure why I didn't think of this sooner but a cheap and easy way to get the IHS milled would be to take it to an engraving shop. We would have charged about $20 at the shop I used to run with CPU still attached and probably $5-$10 with the IHS only. Local areas will very though.

[BillA]

indeed you were not thinking
did you look at the dwg ?
to spec ?

more half-assed 'work'
listen jd, do it your way and you will have the scrambled eggs you deserve
stop trying to define things that you do not understand (testing)
got that ?

select dark blue as your type color when posting

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by BillA

indeed you were not thinking
did you look at the dwg ?
to spec ?

more half-assed 'work'
listen jd, do it your way and you will have the scrambled eggs you deserve
stop trying to define things that you do not understand (testing)
got that ?

select dark blue as your type color when posting

Have you lost your mind Bill? Do you have any idea at all what engraving shops do? Obviously not. If we could put 1/32" lettering on a $10,000 gold ring 1/64" deep we could easily handle a small groove in a piece of copper. And I have hundreds of times. In fact engravers are much better setup for fine detailed work than machine shops. I can't even begin to understand what you are thinking with those comments.

I am starting to wonder why you even bother here? You seem to know more than all of us on every subject so why waste your time here? Who are YOU serving? You continuously try to separate yourself from we and us so why do you keep posting at all?

Why not just answer the ****ing questions if you already know the answers? Why let us all wonder in ignorance for years and then come out and say we are ignorant?


If you honestly think IHS temp = die temp and all blocks cool the die the same through the IHS then ok. Prove it. IHS is nothing more than making the base of the block thicker and you of all should know how base thickness changes block performance.

Yes, I will do you favor and not bother wasting anymore of my time following your lead on testing as I have wasted in the past. If I listened to everyone else 4 years ago and stuck with CPU based testing and didn't follow your lead on Die sims I would be much further along on a better CPU based test bench.

Now I say **** it. There is no set of test results that you or anyone else can create that will tell me how well such and such set of parts will work in my or anyone else's computer. That is the only test results anyone really wants to know and that is the results they will know only when they install those parts. All your hi tech industry standard bull shit tests will not and never have.

Also your die sims have been half ass from the start and you were charging people for testing on them so don't go off on people half assing. Especially DIY'ers.

I will do you a favor and quit wasting my time on the testing subject.

[BillA]

I was not aware that jewelers used dwgs , my error
I have a hottie and tomorrow I will hit the jewelers
I'll let you know what $20 will buy

re testing, good idea

[PaulDriver]

ouch?

(Jaydee spanking BillA)

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by BillA

I was not aware that jewelers used dwgs , my error
I have a hottie and tomorrow I will hit the jewelers
I'll let you know what $20 will buy

re testing, good idea

Think Stamp and Engraving shop. Even Engraving and Sign shop. Not jeweler really all though we did plenty of that. The machinery I used was a rotary engraver. Basically a high speed precision CNC mill. I assumed you followed some of the water blocks I made on the equipment there. Have no idea what prices will be elsewhere but the 3 shops here in town would be around $20. Hard to find a good engraving shop anymore though whiling to do odd ball stuff. They may just laugh at you.

[BillA]

do they work to dwgs ?
-> have YOU looked at that Intel dwg (if not, do so before responding)

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by BillA

do they work to dwgs ?
-> have YOU looked at that Intel dwg (if not, do so before responding)

I can't speak for all engraving shops but we worked from drawing and in fact imported .dxf's from customers.

I assume the drawing you are speaking of is the same or similar to the one in the frosty article (http://www.frostytech.com/articlevie...ticleID=1915)? If so then a strait cut at those specs should be no problem. If they choose to do it is another issue though. Hell we even traced PCB boards with it. We would do stuff like this aswell: http://www.modernengraving.co.uk/dies.htm Lot more intricate than a strait slot cut in a piece of copper.

Anyway just a suggestion.

[BillA]

do you know a shop that will accept this work ?
do you have contacts through which you could find a shop ?
(very easy to mail a CPU)

not a simple slot btw, see the step at its end ?

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by BillA

do you know a shop that will accept this work ?
do you have contacts through which you could find a shop ?
(very easy to mail a CPU)

not a simple slot btw, see the step at its end ?

Yeah the step should be no problem. Will take 2 passes instead of one.

Starts description on page 76: http://developer.intel.ru/download/d...s/30255301.pdf

Pics attached.

I lost all my contacts back in 2002 when they sold the business and I went back to their construction company. You would probably have better luck locally if you are in a large city.

Here is a few links:
http://www.precisionengraving.com/index.html
http://www.gsmgraphicarts.com/engraving.html

Google for precision engraving and such.

[bigben2k]

Wow, nice info Jaydee! I'm definitely going to use this!

[BillA]

jeez Ben, thats the Intel doc we've been discussing all along

jd, thanks for copying the dwgs, was stuck with their encryption

[jaydee]

Another pic of the drawing with more details.

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by BillA

jeez Ben, thats the Intel doc we've been discussing all along

jd, thanks for copying the dwgs, was stuck with their encryption

printscreen button?

[BillA]

could not find
what color is it ?

[PaulDriver]

Bill?

Come one...

You're baiting, right?

uhhhhh, musn't take the bait....

ahhh.

The printscreen on 'most' keyboards is next to the F12

It copies the video frame buffer into the clipboard so you can paste it into another application (say MSPAINT)

OK, you got me, I couldn't take it.

p.d.

[TerraMex]

what color is it ?

lazy color.

[jaydee]

I used Paint Shop Pro 8's screen grabber for the record. Can just put a window around the important part and save it.