Smelting copper

Tuff · 05-03-2003, 05:43 PM

I am not sure about the terminology...but I think smelting is the term....Would it be possible to make a waterblock jig out of steel or some other high temp metal and pour the smelted(molten) copper into the mold?

Tuff <-------------is just throwing this out for discussion.

tippey · 05-03-2003, 05:50 PM

it's possible to do but I think it's gonna take alot of heat

hara · 05-03-2003, 06:14 PM

Finding a suitable material for the mold is a challenge.
Vacuum injection molding is necessary to not have air bubbles but high pressure injection molding will yield good enough results.

redleader · 05-03-2003, 07:24 PM

The word you want is "casting". Its been tried, but its very difficult.

Rami Saikali · 05-04-2003, 01:43 AM

i was thinking about this the otehr day...

2000 F to melt copper...

about 780 degrees F to melt zinc..

the pennies past 1982 are made of 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper. Copper and zinc have similar heat indexes... Pennies before 1982 are made otu of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc..

I am hopefully going to either get like 300 newer pennies and melt them in my fireplce ( i have done it before) and pour the result into a clay.

Clay or ceramic is what they use for casting copper and other hot metals. But if this goes through i can make a nice water block for around 3 dollars

Puzzdre · 05-04-2003, 03:08 AM

Bruno Facca casted some blocks, but we don't know how the story ended...

here's the link:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...a&pagenumber=3

redleader · 05-04-2003, 03:08 AM

You'll end up with copper + zinc alloy, or brass as its commonly called. Its conductivity is pretty bad, so I doubt it will be a good performer. Pure metals are always several times better then their alloys. Adding things to a metal lattice seriously ****s up the flow of electrons (and the thermal energy they carry).

Rami Saikali · 05-04-2003, 03:41 AM

Weell thanks for the help..

Do you know where i can buy ZINC itself online?

OR do you know if there is a way while the coper and zinc is heated up to seperate them?

Thanks

hara · 05-04-2003, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rami Saikali
i was thinking about this the otehr day...

2000 F to melt copper...

about 780 degrees F to melt zinc..

the pennies past 1982 are made of 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper. Copper and zinc have similar heat indexes... Pennies before 1982 are made otu of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc..

I am hopefully going to either get like 300 newer pennies and melt them in my fireplce ( i have done it before) and pour the result into a clay.

Clay or ceramic is what they use for casting copper and other hot metals. But if this goes through i can make a nice water block for around 3 dollars

Why don't you buy a copper bar?

Tuff · 05-04-2003, 08:37 AM

Small hand held butane torches vary from 1300 to 1700 deg C is that hot enough to melt the copper?

I can purchase these for 9 bucks...if not..I can get Oxy/acetalene for bucks.

Tuff

JSimmons · 05-04-2003, 10:46 AM

It seems to me that a cast block will not perform as well as a billet block. Lot's of tiny imperfections in a cast piece...

pelle76 · 05-04-2003, 02:30 PM

I think U could use sand to cast the copper in. Poure some water in a bucket of sand and then shape a mirrorimage of the block U want to create. Pour in the copper.

This method is used both for casting metals and also for casting glass.

Alchemy · 05-04-2003, 02:47 PM

You can't possibly expect to arrange dry sand in a shape even remotely like a waterblock.

Even if you did, there's no way you can melt and quench the copper properly, under the right gas purge, without some very expensive equipment and a good load of skill. Copper is notorious for its difficulty in casting as well as cold-working.

The question I always ask myself when I come across ideas like this is "why?" I have nothing against people wanting to do new and strange things - in fact, that's one of my favorite things about this forum - but I don't understand why people would want to do things differently without asking themselves how it might make things better. I guess it's not a bad way of looking at things, but I still think it's strange.

A parting shot: why not just take a chunk of copper and cut away everything that isn't a waterblock?

Alchemy

Rami Saikali · 05-04-2003, 02:54 PM

A reason I would like to do it is because A. i can get more ornate and thin designs in there than i can get in a mill and B. i dont have enough money to rent a mill or have someone do it for me.

If the 9 dollar butane torch reaches 1700 C that would be great... then i could actually use copper instead of using ZINC.

At the moment i want someone to please post a linc to where i can buy zinc in either the minneapolis minnesota area or where i can buy it online.. Or can someone tell me how to remove teh 97.5 percent zinc from the 2.5 percent copper in modern pennies?

thanks

pelle76 · 05-04-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemy
You can't possibly expect to arrange dry sand in a shape even remotely like a waterblock.

I said wet sand.. And it works great...

I also have equipment proper enough to melt copper. I think i'm going to try it.. My fathers basement is full of old copperpipes and stuff...

Don't use Zink... It really sucks..

Rami Saikali · 05-04-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pelle76
I said wet sand.. And it works great...

I also have equipment proper enough to melt copper. I think i'm going to try it.. My fathers basement is full of old copperpipes and stuff...

Don't use Zink... It really sucks..

Why would u say zinc sucks..?

copper is EXTREMELY hard to cast as i am told...

zinc and copper have nearly the same thermal properties says every online source i can find.

Rami Saikali · 05-04-2003, 04:29 PM

Oh and zinc has a MUCH more attainable melting point..

hara · 05-04-2003, 05:35 PM

I don't know where you found this information

Zinc has a relatively low thermal conductivity. You'd be WAY much better making a #rotor block in al, both in terms of price, performance and ease.

Thermal conductivites:
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/tk/tks/tcon.html

Thermal Conductivity, W/cm-K

Copper 3.937
Zinc 1.024
Brass 70% copper, 30% zinc 1.220

Rami Saikali · 05-04-2003, 05:42 PM

Specific Heat

Copper 0.092
Zinc 0.0915

http://www.lib.umich.edu/dentlib/Den.../Specheat.html

Hummm but apparently it sthermal conductivity is bad... similar specific heat though..

UnloadeD · 05-05-2003, 12:52 AM

I prefer this link myself, it also shows melting points and other nice info:
http://web.mit.edu/3.091/www/pt/pert14.html

BTW: About the wet sand idea, pouring molten metals into anything wet will get you explosive results, do not try this.

Also the waterblock on the Tt Aquarius kit is cast copper for what ever thats worth. It's prolly easier/cheaper to mass produce blocks this way, but I doubt the results are stellar or everybody would be doing it.

peace.
unloaded

Rami Saikali · 05-05-2003, 12:54 AM

Yeah as i just learned the hot metals and wet sand idea does give explosive results as unloaded pointed out.

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/

someone from oc-forums.com recomended that site.. looks like i am just going to be making my own block by finding a milling serivce but i might make a block using copper and a furnace idea from them in the future

LiquidRulez · 05-05-2003, 01:56 AM

If youre planning on buying the necessary materials to make a furnace to melt copper, then why dont you just take the money and buy a decent drill press of a $399 mini mill from Homier?

Everyone is always coming up with these half-cocked ideas to make blocks........................and to see how many fingers or limbs can be severed in one swoop...... Its just crazy!

I mean, were not talking about alot of money for a drill press or a mini mill!..........probably less than what youre going to pay a doctor to try to sew your finger back on, or 1/10th the cost of your stay in ICU , suffering from 3rd degree burns from the molten copper washing down 50% of your body.......taking 99.5% of your skin with it.

Why dont you just do what everyone else does that makes em' and .....
Go buy the appropriate(safest) equipment, and >>MATERIALS<< to do so. Its a hell of alot safer than trying to cast your own copper WB...especially if you have NO IDEA of what you are doing!

Rami Saikali · 05-05-2003, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LiquidRulez
If youre planning on buying the necessary materials to make a furnace to melt copper, then why dont you just take the money and buy a decent drill press of a $399 mini mill from Homier?

Everyone is always coming up with these half-cocked ideas to make blocks........................and to see how many fingers or limbs can be severed in one swoop...... Its just crazy!

I mean, were not talking about alot of money for a drill press or a mini mill!..........probably less than what youre going to pay a doctor to try to sew your finger back on, or 1/10th the cost of your stay in ICU , suffering from 3rd degree burns from the molten copper washing down 50% of your body.......taking 99.5% of your skin with it.

Why dont you just do what everyone else does that makes em' and .....
Go buy the appropriate(safest) equipment, and >>MATERIALS<< to do so. Its a hell of alot safer than trying to cast your own copper WB...especially if you have NO IDEA of what you are doing!

Because im not a dumbas.. molten metal is NO less safe then a drill press spinning at 15,000 some odd rpms... you just have to be careful.. and 400 dollars is a LOT for me..

If you checked the site the furnace to cast copper is actualy quite cheap... stuff u can make from home.. just the problem is copper is a bit hard to cast. thats why im going to go to a mill and pay someone 50 bucks to make my block most likely.

but making a nice cast of something with a cheap furnace in my freetime would prove fun

LiquidRulez · 05-05-2003, 02:31 AM

Hell, Id just like to be able to buy a drill press that can do 15,000 RPMs...
And would much rather have it fall over on me running, than to spill a crucibal full of molten Cu at +/- 2000 F on my leg.
I have a furnace that I made a few years back, .....I tried to make my own blocks when I first got into watercooling and it just didnt work out so well for my likings.Theres just too much work involved in setting up the molds for copper......... I just stick to Al casting for now if I find the need for it, which hasnt been too often, now that I own 2 cnc mills.

And for just so you know........copper is NOT "a bit hard to cast".........IT IS ONE OF THE HARDEST MATERIALS KNOWN TO MAN TO CAST . This is the main reason why it costs so much.
And its best cast in a controlled envirement, unless you like trillions of microscopic gas pockets all through your casting, upping the thermal gradient of the Cu...
You cant control that with your average backyard furnace...dumbas or not

All I can say is be careful......the minute you start thinking that you cant get severely burnt casting metal, will be when you find out that you can.

Whatever you decide on. Good luck

8-Ball · 05-05-2003, 04:35 AM

A WORD OF WARNING!!!!

A student was killed here at Oxford trying to sand cast Aluminium when the mould hadn't been given enough time to dry.

The temperature instantly boiled any remaining moisture in the mould, and as previousl explained, it exploded.

He probably would have only been injured if he hadn't turned and run. A large portion of the molten aluminium was thrown into the air and landed on the back of his neck, running inside his protective clothing.

I need not go into any more detail.

As for being able to make intricate patterns in the block. This will only work if you can control the filling of the mould very accurately. The design of the mould will also take considerably more time than producing a CAD drawing for CNC machining. There are many factors involved in producing a successful mould for casting, and without using very expensive techniques, the results won't be that great. That means you will need a large amount of finishing. This will have to be done on a milling machine. And to be honest, if you're doing that, then you may as well mill the whole thing.

8-ball

05-03-2003, 05:43 PM	#1
Tuff Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 141	Smelting copper I am not sure about the terminology...but I think smelting is the term....Would it be possible to make a waterblock jig out of steel or some other high temp metal and pour the smelted(molten) copper into the mold? Tuff <-------------is just throwing this out for discussion.

05-03-2003, 06:14 PM	#3
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	Finding a suitable material for the mold is a challenge. Vacuum injection molding is necessary to not have air bubbles but high pressure injection molding will yield good enough results. __________________ - Every great HD crash day is the day before back-up day. - My Past System - "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Milton, Paradise Lost. - FMZ

05-04-2003, 03:08 AM	#6
Puzzdre Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Croatia Posts: 969	Bruno Facca casted some blocks, but we don't know how the story ended... here's the link: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...a&pagenumber=3 __________________ 'Out of cheese error... ...please reboot the universe (press the GBL to continue)'

05-04-2003, 05:35 PM	#18
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	I don't know where you found this information Zinc has a relatively low thermal conductivity. You'd be WAY much better making a #rotor block in al, both in terms of price, performance and ease. Thermal conductivites: http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/tk/tks/tcon.html Thermal Conductivity, W/cm-K Copper 3.937 Zinc 1.024 Brass 70% copper, 30% zinc 1.220 __________________ - Every great HD crash day is the day before back-up day. - My Past System - "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Milton, Paradise Lost. - FMZ

05-05-2003, 01:56 AM	#22
LiquidRulez Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In Hell Posts: 322	If youre planning on buying the necessary materials to make a furnace to melt copper, then why dont you just take the money and buy a decent drill press of a $399 mini mill from Homier? Everyone is always coming up with these half-cocked ideas to make blocks........................and to see how many fingers or limbs can be severed in one swoop...... Its just crazy! I mean, were not talking about alot of money for a drill press or a mini mill!..........probably less than what youre going to pay a doctor to try to sew your finger back on, or 1/10th the cost of your stay in ICU , suffering from 3rd degree burns from the molten copper washing down 50% of your body.......taking 99.5% of your skin with it. Why dont you just do what everyone else does that makes em' and ..... Go buy the appropriate(safest) equipment, and >>MATERIALS<< to do so. Its a hell of alot safer than trying to cast your own copper WB...especially if you have NO IDEA of what you are doing! __________________ GOt H20 ?

05-03-2003, 05:50 PM	#2
tippey Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: wales uk Posts: 17	it's possible to do but I think it's gonna take alot of heat

05-03-2003, 07:24 PM	#4
redleader Thermophile Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The deserts of Tucson, Az Posts: 1,264	The word you want is "casting". Its been tried, but its very difficult.

05-04-2003, 01:43 AM	#5
Rami Saikali Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 45	i was thinking about this the otehr day... 2000 F to melt copper... about 780 degrees F to melt zinc.. the pennies past 1982 are made of 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper. Copper and zinc have similar heat indexes... Pennies before 1982 are made otu of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc.. I am hopefully going to either get like 300 newer pennies and melt them in my fireplce ( i have done it before) and pour the result into a clay. Clay or ceramic is what they use for casting copper and other hot metals. But if this goes through i can make a nice water block for around 3 dollars

05-04-2003, 03:41 AM	#8
Rami Saikali Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 45	Weell thanks for the help.. Do you know where i can buy ZINC itself online? OR do you know if there is a way while the coper and zinc is heated up to seperate them? Thanks

05-04-2003, 08:37 AM	#10
Tuff Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 141	Small hand held butane torches vary from 1300 to 1700 deg C is that hot enough to melt the copper? I can purchase these for 9 bucks...if not..I can get Oxy/acetalene for bucks. Tuff

05-04-2003, 10:46 AM	#11
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	It seems to me that a cast block will not perform as well as a billet block. Lot's of tiny imperfections in a cast piece...

05-04-2003, 02:30 PM	#12
pelle76 Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Sweden, Skovde Posts: 101	I think U could use sand to cast the copper in. Poure some water in a bucket of sand and then shape a mirrorimage of the block U want to create. Pour in the copper. This method is used both for casting metals and also for casting glass.

05-04-2003, 02:47 PM	#13
Alchemy Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 238	You can't possibly expect to arrange dry sand in a shape even remotely like a waterblock. Even if you did, there's no way you can melt and quench the copper properly, under the right gas purge, without some very expensive equipment and a good load of skill. Copper is notorious for its difficulty in casting as well as cold-working. The question I always ask myself when I come across ideas like this is "why?" I have nothing against people wanting to do new and strange things - in fact, that's one of my favorite things about this forum - but I don't understand why people would want to do things differently without asking themselves how it might make things better. I guess it's not a bad way of looking at things, but I still think it's strange. A parting shot: why not just take a chunk of copper and cut away everything that isn't a waterblock? Alchemy

05-04-2003, 02:54 PM	#14
Rami Saikali Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 45	A reason I would like to do it is because A. i can get more ornate and thin designs in there than i can get in a mill and B. i dont have enough money to rent a mill or have someone do it for me. If the 9 dollar butane torch reaches 1700 C that would be great... then i could actually use copper instead of using ZINC. At the moment i want someone to please post a linc to where i can buy zinc in either the minneapolis minnesota area or where i can buy it online.. Or can someone tell me how to remove teh 97.5 percent zinc from the 2.5 percent copper in modern pennies? thanks

05-04-2003, 04:29 PM	#17
Rami Saikali Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 45	Oh and zinc has a MUCH more attainable melting point..

05-04-2003, 05:42 PM	#19
Rami Saikali Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 45	Specific Heat Copper 0.092 Zinc 0.0915 http://www.lib.umich.edu/dentlib/Den.../Specheat.html Hummm but apparently it sthermal conductivity is bad... similar specific heat though..

05-05-2003, 12:52 AM	#20
UnloadeD Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MidWest USA Posts: 176	I prefer this link myself, it also shows melting points and other nice info: http://web.mit.edu/3.091/www/pt/pert14.html BTW: About the wet sand idea, pouring molten metals into anything wet will get you explosive results, do not try this. Also the waterblock on the Tt Aquarius kit is cast copper for what ever thats worth. It's prolly easier/cheaper to mass produce blocks this way, but I doubt the results are stellar or everybody would be doing it. peace. unloaded

05-05-2003, 12:54 AM	#21
Rami Saikali Cooling Neophyte Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 45	Yeah as i just learned the hot metals and wet sand idea does give explosive results as unloaded pointed out. http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/ someone from oc-forums.com recomended that site.. looks like i am just going to be making my own block by finding a milling serivce but i might make a block using copper and a furnace idea from them in the future

05-05-2003, 02:31 AM	#24
LiquidRulez Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In Hell Posts: 322	Hell, Id just like to be able to buy a drill press that can do 15,000 RPMs... And would much rather have it fall over on me running, than to spill a crucibal full of molten Cu at +/- 2000 F on my leg. I have a furnace that I made a few years back, .....I tried to make my own blocks when I first got into watercooling and it just didnt work out so well for my likings.Theres just too much work involved in setting up the molds for copper......... I just stick to Al casting for now if I find the need for it, which hasnt been too often, now that I own 2 cnc mills. And for just so you know........copper is NOT "a bit hard to cast".........IT IS ONE OF THE HARDEST MATERIALS KNOWN TO MAN TO CAST . This is the main reason why it costs so much. And its best cast in a controlled envirement, unless you like trillions of microscopic gas pockets all through your casting, upping the thermal gradient of the Cu... You cant control that with your average backyard furnace...dumbas or not All I can say is be careful......the minute you start thinking that you cant get severely burnt casting metal, will be when you find out that you can. Whatever you decide on. Good luck __________________ GOt H20 ?

05-05-2003, 04:35 AM	#25
8-Ball Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oxford University, UK Posts: 452	A WORD OF WARNING!!!! A student was killed here at Oxford trying to sand cast Aluminium when the mould hadn't been given enough time to dry. The temperature instantly boiled any remaining moisture in the mould, and as previousl explained, it exploded. He probably would have only been injured if he hadn't turned and run. A large portion of the molten aluminium was thrown into the air and landed on the back of his neck, running inside his protective clothing. I need not go into any more detail. As for being able to make intricate patterns in the block. This will only work if you can control the filling of the mould very accurately. The design of the mould will also take considerably more time than producing a CAD drawing for CNC machining. There are many factors involved in producing a successful mould for casting, and without using very expensive techniques, the results won't be that great. That means you will need a large amount of finishing. This will have to be done on a milling machine. And to be honest, if you're doing that, then you may as well mill the whole thing. 8-ball __________________ For those who believe that water needs to travel slowly through the radiator for optimum performance, read the following thread. READ ALL OF THIS!!!!

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