Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 07-24-2004, 11:01 AM   #1
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default Liquid Cooling Knowledge Base

Ok guys in another thread we have been kicking around the idea of having a Wikipedia-style repository for water cooling information. What I envision this becoming is a sort of easily searchable, easily assessible front end for all the GOOD information that is out there on the web. Or in other words it's basically a way to take the good posts and links that are already stickied in forums across the web and convert them to a format that people will actually see and read and use. The noblest of goals.

What we seem to be looking at here is a user-submitted and group edited compendium. It is a HUGE endeavor when you think about the breadth of the topic. What we will end up with in essence is a web-based water cooling textbook.

Joe has offered to code this up and implement it, and so we have to come up with a list of features for him to implement. I imagine a system where content is submitted in a textbox, edited for content and for readability by the overseers of that section of the compendium, cross-linked with other content for easier indexing and searching, and then made visible to all. Keywords will be a must.

The way this should work if implemented properly is that the higher tiers of information should be readable and understandable without a lot of technical education (think executive summary here) but with links embedded that take you to more detailed results. So people can learn as they go as much as they want. There should also be extensive citations and references to engineering and technical specs offsite when it's possible.

Now this will require active contributions from many people to succeed, and a lot of editing and fact checking from a smaller number of people. And it isn't the sort of thing that can be done in a week or two; this is a BIG SCALE project.

Anyway this would be the time to tell me that my vision is way off base or that the concept itself is a bad one and make suggestions and changes. My thought is that it would be great to have good people from other sites involved: RoboTech, MYV65, Cathar, ??others??

Should we start with an outline? How big of a scope?

Theory
-Pressure/flow
-Heat transfer

Waterblock Construction
-CAD
-Machining
--equipment
--usage/tips/tricks

Testing
-Goals
-Methods
-Equipment
-Data acquisistion/noise/automation?
-Results from mfgrs and reviewers

Implementation
-Matching components for a system
-Avoiding leaks
-Optimizing your loop
--noise/size/performance/cost
--removing unnecessary restrictions
--troubleshooting poor performance

Components?
-Pumps
-Radiators
-Waterblocks

Thoughts? These would all be extensively linked together (so in the implementation you are kicked back to theory sections for WHY removing 90 degree fittings on the pump is a good idea etc).

I would think that culling forum threads and stickies for gems, reposting them in a single, permanent, SEARCHABLE location would in itself be a good project. This would go far beyond that.
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM

Last edited by pHaestus; 07-24-2004 at 04:50 PM.
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 11:03 AM   #2
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

Oh and a good example of one way that COULD work is OC FAQ

I would favor a flow chart setup like that Google link web you showed yesterday though Bill
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 11:17 AM   #3
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

pretty huge scope
do suggest doing it in discrete pieces, with lots of focus on a specific topic perhaps a good draft can be generated, then fleshed out by one or two

doing a single topic initially may show how to structure the activity so it can maintain a sufficient activity level to complete a working draft

the mouse stuff:
more work for Groth, or does Joe know how to do such ?
despite the bling bling factor, I suspect a fleshed out hierarchy might be more useful (using alt text to expand upon the category title)
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 11:30 AM   #4
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

Was (mostly) joking about that Google thing. It's a java app of some kind. It seems to me like the Design/Construction stuff is almost separate from the rest (as I outlined it anyway) and it is far out of my expertise. JayDee was considering putting together an article on milling and machining; maybe he could help coordinate that section...
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 12:20 PM   #5
Silent Bob
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 10
Default

I think the most important(most busy) sections would be the Components/Implementation section, with the Theory and Testing sections backing up with hard data when needed.

In Components section, would that be just a basic description of generic components or a comprehesive list of all mfgrs/products available in the market?

Each product in that list could contain a brief overview of the product, links to reviews, known issues, etc. It could also have some sort of "suggested setup" for that product, just like when buying something in amazon.com and thereĀ“s that camp: "People who bought this item also bought".
Silent Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 12:42 PM   #6
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

"People who bought this item also bought".
hmmm
may not lead in the 'desired' direction, no (bent) spoons - make 'em use the info
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 12:45 PM   #7
SlaterSpeed
Cooling Savant
 
SlaterSpeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 234
Default

A very interesting idea. I would be very happy to help out if i can.

IMO the biggest challange would be ensuring a high standard of information. Who have you got in mind to do the editing/fact checking side of things? I feel that is a very important issue. Dont want dogey info getting posted do we hehe

Would this be a part of the procooling site or a seperate affair?
__________________
aka. slater3333uk - The self proclaimed 'Middle Player'

'Liquified'
SlaterSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 01:35 PM   #8
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

I would prefer to maintain control of it as part of procooling (more likely it would become the active part of procooling rather than writing separate articles like this).
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 02:16 PM   #9
SlaterSpeed
Cooling Savant
 
SlaterSpeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 234
Default

Good thats what i was hopeing. (just been reading the other thread where this was mentioned and it basicly answerd most of my questions anyway)
__________________
aka. slater3333uk - The self proclaimed 'Middle Player'

'Liquified'
SlaterSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 02:24 PM   #10
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

well I am hoping at some point to get a javascript pulldown "System performance calculator" set up that will at first estimate final flow rate from pump P-Q curve, wb, hose, fitting, and radiator dP-Q curves, and then show final deltaT. Next step after that would be to get some radiator/fan performance data into the calculator as well.

That would be a lot more useful than "people who use x also use y" because just because a combination is popular doesn't make it optimal.
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 06:12 PM   #11
BalefireX
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 269
Default

I think Bill is on the right track here - I think we should select one thing, preferably something reasonably simple, and see how it goes. Maybe we should do something on pump selection, as issues with testing that are what inspired this idea
__________________
If not, why not?
BalefireX is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 06:14 PM   #12
Cathar
Thermophile
 
Cathar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
Default

Here is an (incomplete) outline that I started on yesterday after posting in the thread.

(Edit: Bah - damn formatting)


1. Introduction

2. The Basics
2.1 What is WaterCooling?
2.2 Why Watercool?
2.3 What can water-cooling do for you?
2.4 What water-cooling won't do for you?

3. What are the necessary components of a water-cooling setup
3.1 Water Block(s) - [At least one of the following is required]
3.1.1 CPU
3.1.2 GPU
3.1.3 Northbridge/Southbridge
3.1.4 Hard Drives
3.1.5 PSU
3.2 Pump
3.3 Heat Exchanger
3.3.1 Radiator
3.3.2 Fan
3.4 Tubing

3.5 What are the optional components of a water-cooling setup
3.5.1 Hose Clamps
3.5.2 Elbows and Bends
3.5.3 T-line filler and cap
3.5.4 Reservoir
3.5.5 3-tap fill and bleed
3.5.6 Water Additives
3.5.7 Flow Meter
3.5.8 TEC's/Peltier's
3.5.9 Water Chiller

4 DIY vs Kits vs Mix'n'Match

5 CPUs
5.1 Problem description
5.2 Heat produced
5.3 Basic heat exchance theory

6 Waterblocks
6.1 Metals used
6.2 Performance Terminology
6.3 Pressure Drop

7 Pump
7.1 Pump terminology and characteristics
7.1.1 Mains vs DC
7.1.2 Peak Head (Pressure)
7.1.3 Peak Flow
7.2 PQ Curves
7.3 Size
7.4 Power Draw and Heat

8 Heat Exchangers
8.1 Basics of water-air heater transfer
8.2 Radiators
8.2.1 Basic Types
8.2.2 Desirable Characteristics
8.2.3 Pressure Drop
8.2.4 Fans and fan characteristics (should probably be in its own section)
8.3 Direct Water-Air exchangers/Evaporative Coolers
8.3.1 Benefits
8.3.1.1 Dew point
8.3.2 Drawbacks
8.3.2.1 Pollution
8.3.2.2 Toxicity & Additives
8.3.2.3 Refilling
8.3.2.4 Noise

9 Tubing
9.1 Different Types
9.1.1 Vinyl
9.1.2 Silicone Rubber
9.2 Different Sizes
9.2.1 4mm->5/8"
9.2.2 Pressure Drop Characteristics

10 System Component Interactions
10.1 Pumping Power vs Back-pressure resistance

11 Deciphering Web Reviews of WaterCooling Products

Last edited by Cathar; 07-24-2004 at 06:24 PM.
Cathar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 07:13 PM   #13
greenman100
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 414
Default

I would like to see this integrated/expanded upon, too

http://www.procooling.com/articles/h...g__-_phaes.php

there are 7 or 8 things to add to that list, like:

water must slow down to absorb heat or cool down
too much flow is bad
gold is the best thermal conductor
etc
__________________
"Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for."
--Socrates
"greenman100 = obnoxious ass hole"-gazorp
greenman100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-24-2004, 09:59 PM   #14
Etacovda
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dunedin NZ
Posts: 735
Default

I'm happy to donate some of my time to help; busy work with formatting, doing general grammar/spelling checks...

If you're interested in having solidmodels made of major components and put into a photoshop file for easy file generation (ie, loop set ups, etc etc) I could also do that pretty easily.

Anything solidworks/photoshop/illustrator/freehand/rendering based I can help out with.

Just tell me what, and I'll do it

ps i dont caddy, nor am i a ball boy
Etacovda is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 03:21 AM   #15
j813
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: southeast asia
Posts: 164
Default

This is a nice source of information so that anyone having inquiries can have immediate answers.
j813 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 04:01 AM   #16
Kobuchi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 313
Default

Great idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
...water must slow down to absorb heat...
Those, plus BillA's very practical suggestion to do this in small bites... maybe open with a page of Myths. Make it hastily, and edit later. That'll get more people interested, once they see the project really started.

I would love to see a one-stop guide to form factors. What type thread does a HD take? Where are the holes? Etc. All from one location. I don't believe this has been compiled before.
Kobuchi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 09:27 AM   #17
bobkoure
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA - Boston area
Posts: 798
Default

I can commit some time to this as well.
I'm something of a neophyte, possibly know as much as other folks about some noise/audio issues, know which end of a sentence to put the period at.
bobkoure is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 09:49 AM   #18
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

may I belabor the obvious ?

as the far greater amount of 'knowledge' to be utilized has already been written one place or another,
why not expend some effort to overhaul the Linkage section ?
is this section not to serve as the underlying reference base ?

it is much easier to pull a draft together with the relevant references before you

and this is something that any interested individual can do:
create topical lists of links with a 2 sentence description of what the resource is/contains
pH could pass the lists, by topic, to several involved with that topic to vet and assess the value, finally for accuracy/correctness
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 10:30 AM   #19
BalefireX
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 269
Default

Unfortunately the information that is out there is often hidden among piles of useless drivel or in terms which would be difficult for the layman to understand - this is the problem with referring people to procooling threads for example - you have to sift through a dozen pages of posts, often with conflicting opinions to gain an understanding (assuming you follow what they are saying, as the conversation often breaks into tangents).

The work for the people helping write the knowledge base is not so much coming up with the information - as you so rightly said it is already out there - it is turning it into a format that someone easily refer to and learn from.

That being said it would be a very good idea to creat the topical lists of links with short descriptions that you said, as the sources of any information put in the knowledge base should be properly cited.
__________________
If not, why not?
BalefireX is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 12:13 PM   #20
pHaestus
Big Player
Making Big Money
 
pHaestus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com
Posts: 4,782
Default

That is a good point by Bill. Starting by updating the arrangement of articles in the Linkage section and adding additional references is probably the logical first step
__________________
Getting paid like a biker with the best crank...
-MF DOOM
pHaestus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 12:24 PM   #21
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
. . . . Starting by updating the arrangement of articles in the Linkage section and adding additional references is probably the logical first step
pH
suggest you select a topic, define some sub-headings - and see how that affects the Linkage section on that topic

N.B. do define the format desired, i.e. Excel spreadsheet (provide a blank formatted with headers ?)

ohhh, just saw your title
I'm impressed !
so it was true after all
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-25-2004, 01:07 PM   #22
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

I've been pondering the same idea, for quite some time (including making bigmoney!).

I believe that the first division should seperate beginner, intermediate and advanced texts. Then, the individual components/topics distributed accordingly.

If you don't do it, I'll eventually get to it myself.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-26-2004, 02:55 AM   #23
Kobuchi
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
updating the arrangement of articles in the Linkage section and adding additional references is probably the logical first step
You said your goal was a water-cooling Wikipedia. Shouldn't attracting helpers be the first step?
Kobuchi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...