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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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07-19-2004, 11:50 AM | #151 |
Cooling Neophyte
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Yeah, I checked out the thread and figured out which one was you. I believe that would be admin-only territory, so I will send off a PM about getting that information to you.
Is your prerferred addy the MSN one listed in your profile? (this may be used to send you your login info if that is how they choose to handle it, otherwise it will be used for general contact to discuss how to get you back on the forums) BTW, I'm curious - I was under the impression that the search function at OCF wasn't working for members who were not logged in (it always returns 0 results). How in the world did you dig up that old thread? Also, PM has been sent to Newbie_Doo, but he hasn't been on the forums AFAIK since the 14th, so this may not be a quick solution, though it is the best option available. Last edited by IMOG; 07-19-2004 at 12:01 PM. |
07-19-2004, 11:57 AM | #152 | |
Put up or Shut Up
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07-19-2004, 12:02 PM | #153 |
Put up or Shut Up
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 6,506
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Well that was my jaydee116 screen name. That is better yet. I got a new password.
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07-19-2004, 06:00 PM | #154 | |
Cooling Neophyte
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Quote:
J
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07-19-2004, 06:35 PM | #155 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Plainville, CT
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i missed this whole discussion.. but from what i'm reading, i've got a few things to say.
we're all newbs, to one thing or another. I am a pro at some things I do, and a newbie at other things I do. I've done LN2/Dry Ice cooling before I've even done watercooling. Hell, I've played with phase change longer than I've had with a plain watercooling, and TEC's more than that. I am not a pro-know-it-all overclocker, yet I was the first to bring an AXP-M to 3GHz, and currently hold a record AXP air-cooled 3dmark score. I review products, and write articles for FastLaneHW.com. I do not know everything, but when I don't know something, I'll try my best to listen to what someone else has to say and I'll do my research. right now, I'm debating with others on the negative points of having raw aluminum in a closed watercooling loop with other metals. I myself, haven't experience anything major of having raw aluminum + water + different metals, yet others have. I'm experimenting many different things right now to see what is true, and how I could do that. people are telling me to nickel plate aluminum, yet in my experiences and what my colleagues tell me, is to stay away from nickel + aluminum, as anodizing is the ONLY real way to protect aluminum. i'm researching the pros/cons of each solution right now, and deciding what is best for me. Look at what has happened to XtremeSystems.org. of what once was, an INCREDIBLE user base of highly skilled overclockers/tweakers, is now overrun by newbs. constant linking and forwarding to the site has had a huge infilitration of newbs wanting to win olympic sprints before they know how to crawl. and it's annoying, because i know, i just didn't ask a million different questions in a million different threads. I spent a whole 6 months researching products before i built my first computer! after that i spent a whole nother 6 months before i even raised my FSB speed a single MHz. I've been doing this since Dec 2001, and it's slowed down a lot, because of the amount of people that don't want to do what i've been doing. i've been starting to loose interest in computers because there is nothing really "new". finding forums like Procooling and what XS once was, are hard to come by nowadays, and I worry, because for someone who wants to stick with it like myself, it's becoming harder and harder by the day. |
07-19-2004, 06:46 PM | #156 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
Join Date: Dec 2000
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SMan
you have touched on a point central to this whole noob aspect (which we all start as, agreed) -> what to do when something incorrect is posted ? and how to deal with a misplaced belief system that causes the poster to resist 'new' info contradicting their cherished pet theory ? |
07-19-2004, 07:08 PM | #157 | |
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002
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Quote:
I've been dodging this thread, but it keeps popping up, so here I am! It's not hard to tell when someone is stubbornly wrong, but it's many times harder to set them straight. An example: "having more water in a loop will keep your computer cooler." It's easy to say that it's wrong, but credibility alone on the internet doesn't go very far. Post counts don't mean much. So the correction has to come with an explanation. But... If ya'll (newbs) are anything like me, you don't take just anyone's word for it, even if it does have an explanation (It helps a lot if the explanation can be understood!). I, for example, have listened to Bill's statements, but rarely have I been able to confirm the information. Information references are really important (albeit not always possible to substantiate basic physics). ProCooling is special: we know, period. Don't ask how, just take our word for it. If you want an explanation, Google, then ask. ...and no, more water only does one thing: it increases the time it'll take for your computer to reach the max temp it would have reached with less water. |
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07-19-2004, 07:30 PM | #158 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
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well, since you dropped in Ben, . . . .
you here on procooling, and the geek on OCers; birds of a feather (not meant too unkindly) both started just like the rest of us, noobs both have MASSIVE post counts, both do try to help but, particularly in the beginning, both made a TON of incorrect recommendations and today both are still (but less often) giving out bum advice upon occasion how to deal with you guys ? (and the other million-count posting experts ?) I accept that your intentions are the best, that is not the issue but when you are factually incorrect I, at least, find myself in bad humor that those who have discussed so much still have it wrong how is the continued dissemination of incorrect info to be stopped ? |
07-19-2004, 07:45 PM | #159 | |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Plainville, CT
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Quote:
it's the same as having jehova witnesses come over to your door, wanting you to convert. then you explain why and you have good reason, and yet they still don't want to believe you. it takes mistakes for people to learn now, and not "i'll just take your word for it" i myself am not really making mistakes, but experimenting, which in itself, is making "good mistakes" |
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07-19-2004, 08:28 PM | #160 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 66
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After reading this thread I'm getting paranoid (well, a little more than usual, anyway)...
I've got plenty of wrong ideas to present, and mistakes to make. I don't want any of the smart guys to go hermit or stroke out or anything, at least not until I've become clue-worthy. |
07-19-2004, 08:38 PM | #161 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Florida
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Quote:
rejecting input on said ideas IS bad |
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07-19-2004, 08:55 PM | #162 | |
Responsible for 2%
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Greenman100's got it spot on: one must keep an open mind, and unfortunately, that's not a given for everyone. Such is life. |
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07-19-2004, 09:21 PM | #163 | |
Thermophile
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Need to stop of the flow of incorrect info, yet the web is relatively full of it. Do a search on some topic on Google, and you're just as likely to dig up garbage as gold. Need to take away the garbage too. |
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07-19-2004, 09:31 PM | #164 | |
Cooling Savant
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Quote:
I believe that people should make a point of saying "no, thats not right" when someone says something untrue, but you really need to back it up with hard facts... people, especially people here, respond to pictures or numbers better than conjecture/unsubstantiated opinions. Of course, you are in a better position than most to back up your statements, as you have access to possibly the best compilation of tests on most subjects WCing related. The only issue is how much of that you can share for the sake of education without compromising your competitiveness.
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If not, why not? |
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07-19-2004, 09:31 PM | #165 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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glad to see you guys kept it civil all day. I have nothing to add at this time other than I remain convinced that our forums can more or less moderate themselves.
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07-19-2004, 11:22 PM | #166 | |
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07-20-2004, 12:20 AM | #167 |
Thermophile
Join Date: Oct 2002
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A interesting & differant sort of read.
JD, Thanks for that link to the site where the advanced work is being done on copper rads. Have to wonder if they are also doing any heat cores yet. I've nerver belonged to OCs but do go there some, mostly to check on front page articles. A lot more info regarding air cooling there, just have to have the BS detector on to sort fact from fantasy. The water cooling forums are light years behind PC however. As Bill posted, they are very differant sites with differant goals and targeted readers. I'd like to add my .02 regarding any improvements that can be made in the organizing of things to make it easier to find info there. I don't mind doing searches, but they sometimes have to be very creative to locate data that I know is there............. |
07-20-2004, 12:47 AM | #168 |
The Pro/Life Support System
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I gotta say-
Thanks IMOG : some good points and counter points! Thanks Bill for my new sig line! Thanks Cathar for some new geek terminology! Nice to see you again Speedj, I see your adding some good fun to the thread! (BTW we gunna see you on October 2nd at the MWL5? ) Overall a fun thread to read, and impressed at JD's restraint Great thread
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07-20-2004, 12:33 PM | #169 | |
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Quote:
Doubtlessly, we all make mistakes and make comments about things that turn out to not be true in the end. (You'd agree with this, right Bill?) Often times, those are the things we ultimately remember the best. However, there is an important thing to remember, and its something I caught onto quite quickly after joining OCF. There are lots of comments that can contribute to the progression of a discussion. There is no necessity for comments to always be 100% correct, however if not 100% correct, the comments should be accompanied with some sort of reference to how certain one is - For example, "I'm fairly certain this is accurate" or "You might want to look into this further". Others can take thoughts like these and come to further more powerful realizations from them - this happens all the time around here. The problem comes in when people pass off information as though it were fact, when actually its something they were not sure on or they were altogether wrong on. How is the continued dissemination of incorrect information to be stopped? I find this to be an interesting question to pose from your perspective's standpoint. Shouldn't the ability to discern between good and bad information be expected of each member? In an open public forum, that seems the only realistic solution. After all, they are already going to have to be able to discern between less important and more important information, given the wealth of information available for them to go through... Correct and incorrect just sit at extreme opposites along the spectrum of what is important and unimportant. I guess I don't understand the importance of completely eliminateing the responsiblity for the individual to make this distinction. In open public forums like these, we will always face the challenge of overcoming disinformation. @Joe: It's been nice meeting many of you guys, and catching up with some names I haven't seen in some time. |
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07-20-2004, 12:40 PM | #170 | |
Cooling Neophyte
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07-20-2004, 12:46 PM | #171 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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I dunno about that IMOG. I sometimes have open discussions in class when I am teaching undergraduates and more than a few times incorrect theories have been proposed that make no chemical sense. However, good theory or bad I go to the board and write it down and then ask the students to get from reactants to products with a plausible mechanism. Sometimes they can't get from a to b when the mechanism is correct, sometimes they get from a to b when their mechanism is dead wrong. My approach is to show them where they went wrong and then ask them to try again knowing that bit of info.
That sounds like your ideal flow of discussion on OCers, right? But what if the students complained about their feelings getting hurt when I pointed out that there was an error in their thinking? Perhaps they feel intimidated by an older and more vocal chemist leading the discussion and complained about that too. So let's say that it was decided by the Dean that instead of my leading the class discussions I could only work the Powerpoint presentation from the back of the room and not comment while another student from the class led the discussion. Would the education of the students be served by this? Would the correct answer be obtained by the end of class as often? That seems to be the end result of a forum that runs off its experts in the name of protecting the sensitivities of the uneducated.
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07-20-2004, 12:53 PM | #172 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
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IMOG
not directed to you at all not sure it helps to cite me as an example of anything other than a source of data, and purple prose "Shouldn't the ability to discern between good and bad information be expected of each member?" train wreck ! no completely false assumption if they have a BS in a technical field, perhaps (do you recall my tirades against that guy with an engn degree ?) Joe 6pack is clueless, and subject to the everpresent allure of bullshit and it is Joe 6pack's kids that are on OCers, crying for the spoon |
07-20-2004, 01:08 PM | #173 | ||
Cooling Neophyte
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Quote:
Here's a good cliche: It's not what you say, its how you say it. Quote:
I would consider them a lost cause from the start... After all, if all they are doing is memorizing everything CORRECT you tell them, they aren't learning or understanding anything. One must be able to tell the difference between good information and bad information in order to actually understand - without that, they are just memorizing. Last edited by IMOG; 07-20-2004 at 01:20 PM. |
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07-20-2004, 01:14 PM | #174 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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but correctness is NOT dependent upon tone. If you value someone's delivery over their correctness then that is the root of the problem.
It's exactly what Bill was saying; people who are clueless but trying to be helpful will be elevated while those who are knowledgeable but impatient will be eschewed.
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07-20-2004, 01:26 PM | #175 |
Cooling Neophyte
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Perhaps the cliche caused confusion.
Correctness first, then delivery. We simply believe that being correct is not a free pass to being an ass or "virtually" spitting on someone with your response. In fact, perhaps this will make it more clear. We don't encourage anything that pertains to the person. Complete and utter deconstruction of misinformation is not a problem - expanding that line of discussion to comment on the purity of the members mother is not okay. There have been many times in the past when I have completely destroyed someones argument. However, I don't say anything about their lack of intelligence or otherwise. @pH: Admittedly on a personal level, I do put a lot of value in delivery. I've seen some smart people through school and work who will tell someone something that is correct, but are sooo poor at explaining it, the information is lost. In much the same way, being a prick while correcting someone can just lead to an argument or anger, where the point of being correct can easily be lost. More importantly, what is acceptable in the professional world? We may be a bunch of hobbyists, but that doesn't mean we have to act like them. Last edited by IMOG; 07-20-2004 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Corrections, and comment to pH |
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