Epoxy instead of solder???

[jaydee]

I have been experimenting with metal epoxy and so far have had great results. I am epoxying the tops on my test blocks. The Aluminum block I tested last was held together with epoxy and is still on the sytem running 24/7. No probs at all. I was wondering what you all think about iot as I would like to use it on my final product that I sell.

I just epoxied the top on my Copper block and it is sturdy as can be. I milled the sides of it just fine and it is 100% sealed tight inside and out.

What I was thinking for the final version is I would epoxy the top on and then on the sides in the middle I would drill/tap a hole and put a screw on both sides just in case.

Soldering is a pain in the ass compared to this way. heat dosn't really matter for the top piece.

Comments?

[pHaestus]

I am not sure that epoxy is designed to withstand drastic cycling of temperatures like soldering will. I would be concerned that over time the seal might weaken as temp goes up and down. On the other hand, temp swings aren't THAT dramatic for a block and straight H2O. I would prefer solder on a block I was using with a big pelt or two though.

[Butcher]

Solder is less likely to crack from thermal expansion as it;s expansion is close to that of Cu or Al.
Also solder is structurally MUCH stronger than epoxy even the decent metal epoxies. I say this as I had epoxied barbs on my block - 2500psi bond on the epoxy and I snapped one off with a bit of rough handling. In comparision the soldered joints on the block survived it being dropped on the floor and the afrementioned rough handling. My barbs are now soldered
And finally solder is quicker - the thing is done and dusted in an hour tops, epoxy you have to leave for 24 hours to cure.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Butcher
Solder is less likely to crack from thermal expansion as it;s expansion is close to that of Cu or Al.
Also solder is structurally MUCH stronger than epoxy even the decent metal epoxies. I say this as I had epoxied barbs on my block - 2500psi bond on the epoxy and I snapped one off with a bit of rough handling. In comparision the soldered joints on the block survived it being dropped on the floor and the afrementioned rough handling. My barbs are now soldered
And finally solder is quicker - the thing is done and dusted in an hour tops, epoxy you have to leave for 24 hours to cure.

24HRS!!! No, 15minutes!!! The packaging I got says 6minute dry time 15minute until you can handle it and it is acurate. It is hard as a rock in 15minutes. I have hit the side of this block with a hammer trying to break the top off and it will not budge. There is about 10 times more epoxy on the block than solder. With solder all you get is the edges and not the hole top. Also with the 4 mounting screws and the extra two screws I will put in the top it will not fall off.

For the pelt blocks I would probably have to solder as the epoxy might get real brittle at low temps.

So far I have been running over a week with the epoxied block with no sign of problems.

Soldering is a pin in the ass. And I have been a welder for 6 years. I think I need a hotter tourch. I can't get the solder to flow onto the metal. Idon't think it is getting hot enough. There is plenty of flux. I got special rodfor Aluminum which works about the same way except is has 10,000PSI strength.

I am thinking about scraping both and using a O ring. That way the top is removable and you can clean the corrosion out after time. That will take some block modifications though.

I don't know. Iwill pick up a torch set this weekend and see if that will make the soldering easier.

[pHaestus]

I was under the impression that all of the 15 minute epoxies were not good choices for water cooling setups and would eventually leak. I was told to avoid them like the plague when my Danner's housing cracked and to use JB Weld instead. Hopefully someone with more experience with the fast set stuff can make their way to this thread...

[jaydee]

Originally posted by pHaestus
I was under the impression that all of the 15 minute epoxies were not good choices for water cooling setups and would eventually leak. I was told to avoid them like the plague when my Danner's housing cracked and to use JB Weld instead. Hopefully someone with more experience with the fast set stuff can make their way to this thread...

I don't see how. The stuff dries hard as a rock and it 100% water proof. After you take the clamps off there is just a tiny layers left. It would hardly leak even if there was no epoxy in there it is so tight.

[Kevin]

I would think Epoxy would work just as well except when it came to temperature cycling. Originally, when I set up my Kyro II w/ a peltier ( http://www.procooling.com/articles/h..._ii_mods.shtml ), I used only epoxy to hold everything together. It seemed rock hard at first. After a few days though, the heatsink fell off. THis was due to temperature cycling weakening the epoxy. I used JB Weld to fix it up then, but pure epoxy was not sufficient.

I like your O-ring idea. However, when people open that up and the close it, if the block leaks, they may blame you... even if it is their own fault for re-sealing it incorrectly. I really think solder is the best solution, but go with whatever you feel works.

I don't like the idea of using screws as backup to epoxy. Because it isn't an "IF" as far as epoxy failing. If sufficient temperaturce cycling exists, it WILL fail. so then there are just screws which hold the thing down. That doesn't seem good. But ya know the epoxy should work just fine when not used in peltier situations. You may want to advertise the blocks as NOT FOR USE WITH PELTIERS and then you're probably fine. ah... too much writing...

-Kev

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Kevin
I would think Epoxy would work just as well except when it came to temperature cycling. Originally, when I set up my Kyro II w/ a peltier ( http://www.procooling.com/articles/h..._ii_mods.shtml ), I used only epoxy to hold everything together. It seemed rock hard at first. After a few days though, the heatsink fell off. THis was due to temperature cycling weakening the epoxy. I used JB Weld to fix it up then, but pure epoxy was not sufficient.

I like your O-ring idea. However, when people open that up and the close it, if the block leaks, they may blame you... even if it is their own fault for re-sealing it incorrectly. I really think solder is the best solution, but go with whatever you feel works.

I don't like the idea of using screws as backup to epoxy. Because it isn't an "IF" as far as epoxy failing. If sufficient temperaturce cycling exists, it WILL fail. so then there are just screws which hold the thing down. That doesn't seem good. But ya know the epoxy should work just fine when not used in peltier situations. You may want to advertise the blocks as NOT FOR USE WITH PELTIERS and then you're probably fine. ah... too much writing...

-Kev

Good input. This epoxy is especially designed for metals. I put some on a scrap peice of Aluminum and copper and just let it dry on it without pressure applied and it will not come off of there. I chipped and hammered at it and it would not come off. I can only imagine the extra pressure I applied with the clamps that ot would hold that much stronger.

If I came up with an O ring block I would have to make a disclaimer for sure that if you took it apart you are liable from there on out and be advised to replace the O ring. I had a Toyota truck and my little Honda car both use rubber O rings on for the Thermostat seal. Nothing more nothing less and they work!!

I am going to have to learn how to solder well anyway so I will probably just solder them. I can't figure out how that extreamly tiny amount of solder holds the block together? There is just a tiny layer left after you mill the extra off. I think I will have to file the edged down a bit to get more of a full pen weld type pass on there. I have used all kinds of epoxy over the years and actually feel safer with it on my blocks than that tiny bit of solder. But i will give it a try.

[LiquidCool]

I'm doing cross-drilled blocks, not ones with lids, but I've been using JB-Weld on the plugs and it works great. My plugs are just round bar stock cut into slices and pressed into the hole then sanded smooth. But I havent had a single one leak yet!

[Butcher]

Solder vs epoxy should be a similar amount. You flux up the block and tin it with solder (ie. apply a coating of solder to the part to be joined). Then flux up the lid place on heat both apply a bit of pressure and once hot they're drop together, the solder joint is made and very solid. You need enough heat to melt the solder and to have bother parts cleaned and fluxed up or it won't work. I use a butane torch - gets plenty of heat.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by LiquidCool
I'm doing cross-drilled blocks, not ones with lids, but I've been using JB-Weld on the plugs and it works great. My plugs are just round bar stock cut into slices and pressed into the hole then sanded smooth. But I havent had a single one leak yet!

thats interesting. I had a block with holes drilled strait though it and wanted one end pluged. i bought this metal Epoxy(different than what i am using on the tops) that you squish with your fingers to mix it. i plugged a couple holes and let it dry for a while and came back and milled over it and it worked perfect. the epoxy is hard and milled flat. looks good to. the package said it would work with milling, tapping, ect... good Stuff.

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Butcher
Solder vs epoxy should be a similar amount. You flux up the block and tin it with solder (ie. apply a coating of solder to the part to be joined). Then flux up the lid place on heat both apply a bit of pressure and once hot they're drop together, the solder joint is made and very solid. You need enough heat to melt the solder and to have bother parts cleaned and fluxed up or it won't work. I use a butane torch - gets plenty of heat.

Oh, I see. So you solder the whole top of the block and then heat the top piece up and drop it on and it melts together? Damn there goes another dollar to the block. Thats alot of solder. All I have is a propane tourch. I don't think it will get the block hot enough. I will experiemnt with some scrap. Can Aluminum be soldered like that? One would think I would know this being a certified welder. I just havn't messed with Copper and Aluminum soldering before.

[Brad]

as long as it doesn't leak, it doesn't matter.

What I would do is put it in the oven at 60 - 70C for an hour, then put it into the freezer for an hour, do that for a couple of days, see if it is still strong

[Butcher]

Originally posted by jaydee116

Oh, I see. So you solder the whole top of the block and then heat the top piece up and drop it on and it melts together? Damn there goes another dollar to the block. Thats alot of solder. All I have is a propane tourch. I don't think it will get the block hot enough. I will experiemnt with some scrap. Can Aluminum be soldered like that? One would think I would know this being a certified welder. I just havn't messed with Copper and Aluminum soldering before.

Yes Al can be soldered like this.
No it's not a dollar of solder, that's a massive amount of solder - thin layer means less just that, not chunks of solder on it. For one thing unless your surfaces are very uneven it'll all get squeezed out and it's hard to get much solder to stay on a surface any - it's very runny when hot.
That or you buy very expensive solder. Try buying it in a big reel.

[jaydee]

Well I am screwed with solder. The walls are to thin. All the extra solder will just run into the channels. Thats only 1/8". All that heat will warp the hell out of it aswell. Back to the drawing board.

[Butcher]

You should be able to do a joint on 1/8" copper. Also you only flux the bits you want to join, solder will not stick to unfluxed copper in general so any extra should just be able to be washed out. Also only use a minimal amount of solder

[jaydee]

Whats the best type of solder to use? I have 50/50 here with me now which dosn't stick very well. I am using lead free tinning flux, maybe that is the problem. I get the metal as hot as it will get with the torch and then stick the solder on and it melts but not very evenly. Then you can just peel it off.

[Butcher]

For my block I use 80 lead / 18 tin / 2 silver "aluminioum" solder. It's deisgned for joining Al brass copper and the like. Silver makes it quite a lot harder. Melting temp of about 250C iirc. 5 core flux. I also use some generic plumbing flux, it's zinc choride based I believe. I don't normally have a problem with heat - the solder runs like water, and if it's properly fluxed will leave a thin silvery layer if poured off. I typically put a layer about 0.5-1mm thick on and then bring the other secon of the joint into the heat as well, then heat it all till the solder flows and leave to cool in air. My block has been dropped, hit with a hammer and put in a vice with no joint problems.

[Kevin]

hmm looks like you can still get solder to work there. Unfortunately though I think that's way too thin to do an O-ring style seal.
-Kev

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Kevin
hmm looks like you can still get solder to work there. Unfortunately though I think that's way too thin to do an O-ring style seal.
-Kev

i am going to work on the soldering. i bought some new solder and some experimental stuff that comes in a tube that is supposed to only need a little heat and it bonds.

The O ring will need revisions to the block. I would end up with 3/8" channels instead of 1/2". The Maze 2 uses 3/8" channels so it might do ok. I am going to try and figure this soldering out for now.

I am trying to do to many things at once and non of them are working out to well. My freekin webhost is screwed up as usuall so i can't load pics or my updated website.

Before I through everything in the river I am going to relax a bit.

[jaydee]

WoooHooo FTP is working again.

[jaydee]

I must have the wrong stuff. Nothing I do will stick. I can get it to stay but it dosn't stick. I can knock off to easy. Right now I am using led free solder and flux that is supposed to work for Copper but.... Maybe I will try some others.

[jaydee]

I am slowly catching on!!! I just soldered 2 penneys together. Copper is a lot easier than Aluminum. I have some special Aluminum solder I am going to try. I got a freashly milled AL block to put toghether anyway.

[Butcher]

Yeah make sure you clean the surfaces with wire wool before you flux them too nothing makes soldering hard like a bit of dirt

[jaydee]

Originally posted by Butcher
Yeah make sure you clean the surfaces with wire wool before you flux them too nothing makes soldering hard like a bit of dirt

Yeah, the metal is freashly machined and then I go over it with a stainless steel wire brush. I still cannot get a whole block to solder. I got like a CM with solder stuck on it bt that is it. I wasted about a half roll of solder trying to get it to stick.

I heat the metal up and then the metal melts the solder, but it dosn't stick. If I roll the heat back over it it just balls up. I don't know what I am doing wrong.

i got a nice flat layer on once but it just peels off.