Liquid Cooled Projector

superart · 02-11-2005, 11:35 AM

Sorry if this is the wrong forum.

I know that intigration of watercooling into mainstream computing is a comon topic of discusion here. So, when I was looking at projectors for my GeoWall project, and stumbledon this gem, I imidiately thought of you guys.

Panasonic PT-D5500U, comes liquid cooled from the factory. I think thats pretty cool....hehe....getit....pretty COOL...hehe

killernoodle · 02-11-2005, 12:08 PM

Thats cool. I'm currently in the process of building an LCD projector out of a 15" LCD, 2 fresnel lenses, a triplet lens, a 400w metal halide bulb, and a box which I'm going to cut. I'll be sure to post pictures of the work and the results.

AngryAlpaca · 02-11-2005, 01:09 PM

Have you considered compact fluorescent instead? I think I've seen them up to 5000 lumens at like 50W.

superart · 02-11-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killernoodle

Thats cool. I'm currently in the process of building an LCD projector out of a 15" LCD, 2 fresnel lenses, a triplet lens, a 400w metal halide bulb, and a box which I'm going to cut. I'll be sure to post pictures of the work and the results.

Yea, I thought about doing that, but I need a DLP fo my appication. Plus I'm spending other people's money, so why not go with the nicer crap?

Although, I am a little pissed. At first I was told I had a budget of $15k, now their telling me I only have $8k to work with.

Oh well...........

superart · 02-11-2005, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Have you considered compact fluorescent instead? I think I've seen them up to 5000 lumens at like 50W.

It needs to be DLP, and contrast is really important, since this will be used as a visualization machine.

AngryAlpaca · 02-11-2005, 01:15 PM

My message was addressed to killernoodle. Compact fluorescent is a bulb type, not projector type.

superart · 02-11-2005, 01:31 PM

Yea I know. I thought you were saying I should look for a projector model with a compact florescent light source.

If your'e going the DIY route, andyou have a 15" footprint, you might as well go with a low wattage Metal Halide light. Produces more intense light, and is more effecient than a flouro lamp. If I was building one of those, that's definitely the way I'de go.

killernoodle · 02-11-2005, 09:20 PM

Well, we are looking at ~30,000 lumens from the 400w, so they are already very effecient. Plus, they need to have nearly perfect white light and must also be durable. The most important thing, however, is that they are a point light source, which is necessary in a projector.

killernoodle · 02-12-2005, 01:46 PM

You may be wondering how I'm going to cool 400w of metal halide lamp and ballast, and keep the LCD below 90F:

Its german, all metal, very heavy, very quiet, and very powerful...

JWFokker · 02-12-2005, 02:24 PM

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20041113/index.html

I've decided to look into this as well and I encounted Tom's Hardware Guide's only decent article to date. The one you're building sounds pretty expensive though. Why not watercool yours? I think I might. An Eheim 1046 and a couple cheap waterblocks should do it. I've got a spare heatercore sitting around too.

What LCD and projector are you using, btw? I've got to start pricing stuff. It's great that 15" LCDs have dropped in price so much lately.

killernoodle · 02-12-2005, 02:53 PM

The ones made with overhead projectors usually turn out to have horrible picture quality and are generally not bright enough, plus the lamps only last for a couple hundred hours.

Check out lumenlab.com to find out how to make a real projector. The ones that some people turn out from here end up having picture quality rivaling $5,000+ projectors for around $400, plus the bulb lasts for 20,000 hours instead of 3,000 and costs about $30 instead of $300.

I'll be using a 15" CMV CT-529A 15" panel, 500:1, 16ms response, no LLC issues (the flat cables inside the monitor can get in the way, this one doesnt have the problem), and is cheap.

Buy the guide and the lens kit from lumenlab, find a good ballast, bulb, and LCD and make a wooden (or cardboard) box to put it all in.

Tomshardware is never a good place to start looking on where to start a project.

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php

JWFokker · 02-12-2005, 03:19 PM

Hmm...what's so significantly different about the design? Even 3M seems to think LCDs on overhead projectors are an alright idea. They stick to the 4000 Lumen minimum too (with LCD projectors).

http://www.3m.com/meetingnetwork/pro..._overhead.html

But you have to admit, Tom's guide was actually decently done this time. And the results were not half bad.

killernoodle · 02-12-2005, 04:01 PM

A good LL lcd projector will make a helluve lot more than 4000 lumens. Plus, the THG projector will have a lot of excess light making the room bright and reducing the effect.

This is from a LL projector:

JWFokker · 02-12-2005, 04:17 PM

I just checked out the Lumenlab site and forums for about an hour and you're absolutely right. Those projectors beat the hell out of an overhead based projector. I guess I'll buy the info now and start saving for parts. At this rate, I'm never going to get a digital camera and photo printer. Or that Civic radiator. The internet is a siphon for my money.

killernoodle · 02-12-2005, 04:26 PM

Lol. I found that if I spend all my time and money on my computer habit, I lose out on all the other cool stuff i can do. I just got started collecting pieces for my PJ, so far I have ordered a ballast on ebay for $37, spent $40 on a lamp and base, bought 2 reflectors (want one?), and am planning on the design.Here is my project log at lumenlab.

It should be pretty sweet here in the dorm room

The lumenlab manual is very helpful, it is a full 27 pages of ways to calculate focal lengths, how to put the lenses in, how to dismantle the lcd, ect. Plus by buying it you get access to all the good parts of the forum. It was $20 well spet as far as I'm concerned.

JWFokker · 02-12-2005, 06:04 PM

That's a very nice diagram you've got going. Your Paint skills impress me. I've got to read up more before I start planning but there will be at least a couple weeks of hours searching the internet for stuff to buy and much debate of one part vs another. That's the problem with hobbies like this. With watercooling I've spent hours trying to figure out ways to improve my system, make it optimal and somehow do it better than what's been done. You know what I've ended up with for all my efforts? An MCP350, Storm G4 and a dual 120mm radiator. How original. I do use 3/8" ID tubing, but I think I just did that because everyone else was using 1/2" ID and I thought to myself "that just has to be wrong". At least it paid off when the MCP350 was released. And of course it is convenient because transmission coolers use 3/8" ID barbs.

I'll end up doing the same with this. I intend to do a particularly good job though. It's got to be professional looking. I'm thinking an oak or mahogany box, stained a rich amber and polished to a mirror finish. Maybe something with a bit more red in it if I go with mahogany. Definitely some chrome trim. As much as I don't want to spend a huge amount of money on it, I'm probably going to buy a monitor with a 16ms or even 12ms response and end up dropping $200 on the Pro Lense set. I'd get cheaper parts but I know I'll just end up upgrading somewhere down the road. Might as well just do it now and save money in the long run. This should leave me nearly broke for a couple months and push back buying a new car for a good while. Hurray for the internet.

So are you going to watercool yours? The ballast that is. It's awfully tempting.

killernoodle · 02-12-2005, 06:35 PM

No, there is no point. It is just a coil and a capacitor. (can a transformer coil really overheat anyways?)

I'll have plenty of airflow with my gigantic fan. So far I have spent less than $150; add the LCD and various other bits and I have a good projector for 350 or so. People get good results with the regular lenses and 15" lcd, plus it is a proven design, so that is what I'm going for.

And yes, a nice looking case is a must for sure. I'm looking into using cherry for the sides with a deep red stain, then using MDF for the top, bottom, front , and back and make them glossy reflective piano black. No visible hardware is also a must.

superart · 02-12-2005, 11:42 PM

wow, forgot to check on this thread for a day and it exploded with posts. cool

btw, good call on not watercooling the ballast. It really is not needed. Dont watercool the bulb either. You loose 40% of light intensity that way.

JWFokker · 02-12-2005, 11:43 PM

Do you know the dba rating on that fan? I was thinking of using a blower behind the lamp and reflector, mounted internally since it would be quieter than using an axial fan.

JWFokker · 02-12-2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superart

wow, forgot to check on this thread for a day and it exploded with posts. cool

btw, good call on not watercooling the ballast. It really is not needed. Dont watercool the bulb either. You loose 40% of light intensity that way.

Damn it, I wanted to watercool something.

At the very least I can put my heatsink lapping skills to work on polishing the reflector. I wish there were something more suitable available than stainless steel cooking bowls though...there aren't any concave mirrors available?

superart · 02-12-2005, 11:55 PM

Old chinese froverb:
When google fails, froogle prevails.

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=...ogle&scoring=p

killernoodle · 02-13-2005, 12:40 AM

Too bad those are all too small for the bulbs we are using.

You can polish SS to a mirror finish with the right technique, my mom has some pots and pans that are SS and they look like mirrors.

I will have an extra SS bowl type thing when I get my package in if you want to pay for half of what I got both for. (like $4) It is a cake pan that is used to make sports balls, it is 6" in diameter I think and has no holes or flat spots in it anywere (from what I understand). Should polish up nicely.

The fan is an ebm, which means its an older papst, and it is very loud at 12v from all the air moving through it. It is nice and quiet at 7v and still moves a lot of air. I couldnt find a comperable fan on the papst website, the closest thing was a fan of the same size and thickness using almost the same amperage and voltage range and puts out around 220cfm.

superart · 02-13-2005, 02:07 AM

what size mirror do you need?

killernoodle · 02-13-2005, 10:21 AM

See the problem with a mirror that small with that focal distance is that you would have to put the first fresnel and the whole lcd assembly farther away, this this in itself would reduce the light output much more than what you gain by that reflector. You would need something with a shorter focal distance and larger diameter.

JWFokker · 02-13-2005, 04:20 PM

Yep. And the ones that are large enough usually only have diameter listed, no focal length given, or even depth so you could take a guess at it. We need optics mirrors and they just don't sell them large enough or with the correct focal length, at least they don't online. Fabrication would probably be too costly. We're stuck with stainless steel kitchenware it seems.

02-11-2005, 11:35 AM	#1
superart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: FL Posts: 787	Liquid Cooled Projector Sorry if this is the wrong forum. I know that intigration of watercooling into mainstream computing is a comon topic of discusion here. So, when I was looking at projectors for my GeoWall project, and stumbledon this gem, I imidiately thought of you guys. Panasonic PT-D5500U, comes liquid cooled from the factory. I think thats pretty cool....hehe....getit....pretty COOL...hehe __________________ When you do things right, people won't be sure youv'e done anything at all. Looking to buy/trade for used Deep Fryer and Vacume Pack Sealer.

02-11-2005, 12:08 PM	#2
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	Thats cool. I'm currently in the process of building an LCD projector out of a 15" LCD, 2 fresnel lenses, a triplet lens, a 400w metal halide bulb, and a box which I'm going to cut. I'll be sure to post pictures of the work and the results. __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-11-2005, 01:31 PM	#7
superart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: FL Posts: 787	Yea I know. I thought you were saying I should look for a projector model with a compact florescent light source. If your'e going the DIY route, andyou have a 15" footprint, you might as well go with a low wattage Metal Halide light. Produces more intense light, and is more effecient than a flouro lamp. If I was building one of those, that's definitely the way I'de go. __________________ When you do things right, people won't be sure youv'e done anything at all. Looking to buy/trade for used Deep Fryer and Vacume Pack Sealer.

02-11-2005, 09:20 PM	#8
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	Well, we are looking at ~30,000 lumens from the 400w, so they are already very effecient. Plus, they need to have nearly perfect white light and must also be durable. The most important thing, however, is that they are a point light source, which is necessary in a projector. __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-12-2005, 02:53 PM	#11
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	The ones made with overhead projectors usually turn out to have horrible picture quality and are generally not bright enough, plus the lamps only last for a couple hundred hours. Check out lumenlab.com to find out how to make a real projector. The ones that some people turn out from here end up having picture quality rivaling $5,000+ projectors for around $400, plus the bulb lasts for 20,000 hours instead of 3,000 and costs about $30 instead of $300. I'll be using a 15" CMV CT-529A 15" panel, 500:1, 16ms response, no LLC issues (the flat cables inside the monitor can get in the way, this one doesnt have the problem), and is cheap. Buy the guide and the lens kit from lumenlab, find a good ballast, bulb, and LCD and make a wooden (or cardboard) box to put it all in. Tomshardware is never a good place to start looking on where to start a project. http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-11-2005, 01:09 PM	#3
AngryAlpaca Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 631	Have you considered compact fluorescent instead? I think I've seen them up to 5000 lumens at like 50W.

02-11-2005, 01:15 PM	#6
AngryAlpaca Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 631	My message was addressed to killernoodle. Compact fluorescent is a bulb type, not projector type.

02-12-2005, 02:24 PM	#10
JWFokker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 269	http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20041113/index.html I've decided to look into this as well and I encounted Tom's Hardware Guide's only decent article to date. The one you're building sounds pretty expensive though. Why not watercool yours? I think I might. An Eheim 1046 and a couple cheap waterblocks should do it. I've got a spare heatercore sitting around too. What LCD and projector are you using, btw? I've got to start pricing stuff. It's great that 15" LCDs have dropped in price so much lately.

02-12-2005, 03:19 PM	#12
JWFokker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 269	Hmm...what's so significantly different about the design? Even 3M seems to think LCDs on overhead projectors are an alright idea. They stick to the 4000 Lumen minimum too (with LCD projectors). http://www.3m.com/meetingnetwork/pro..._overhead.html But you have to admit, Tom's guide was actually decently done this time. And the results were not half bad.

02-12-2005, 04:01 PM	#13
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	A good LL lcd projector will make a helluve lot more than 4000 lumens. Plus, the THG projector will have a lot of excess light making the room bright and reducing the effect. This is from a LL projector: __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-12-2005, 04:17 PM	#14
JWFokker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 269	I just checked out the Lumenlab site and forums for about an hour and you're absolutely right. Those projectors beat the hell out of an overhead based projector. I guess I'll buy the info now and start saving for parts. At this rate, I'm never going to get a digital camera and photo printer. Or that Civic radiator. The internet is a siphon for my money.

02-12-2005, 04:26 PM	#15
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	Lol. I found that if I spend all my time and money on my computer habit, I lose out on all the other cool stuff i can do. I just got started collecting pieces for my PJ, so far I have ordered a ballast on ebay for $37, spent $40 on a lamp and base, bought 2 reflectors (want one?), and am planning on the design.Here is my project log at lumenlab. It should be pretty sweet here in the dorm room The lumenlab manual is very helpful, it is a full 27 pages of ways to calculate focal lengths, how to put the lenses in, how to dismantle the lcd, ect. Plus by buying it you get access to all the good parts of the forum. It was $20 well spet as far as I'm concerned. __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-12-2005, 06:04 PM	#16
JWFokker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 269	That's a very nice diagram you've got going. Your Paint skills impress me. I've got to read up more before I start planning but there will be at least a couple weeks of hours searching the internet for stuff to buy and much debate of one part vs another. That's the problem with hobbies like this. With watercooling I've spent hours trying to figure out ways to improve my system, make it optimal and somehow do it better than what's been done. You know what I've ended up with for all my efforts? An MCP350, Storm G4 and a dual 120mm radiator. How original. I do use 3/8" ID tubing, but I think I just did that because everyone else was using 1/2" ID and I thought to myself "that just has to be wrong". At least it paid off when the MCP350 was released. And of course it is convenient because transmission coolers use 3/8" ID barbs. I'll end up doing the same with this. I intend to do a particularly good job though. It's got to be professional looking. I'm thinking an oak or mahogany box, stained a rich amber and polished to a mirror finish. Maybe something with a bit more red in it if I go with mahogany. Definitely some chrome trim. As much as I don't want to spend a huge amount of money on it, I'm probably going to buy a monitor with a 16ms or even 12ms response and end up dropping $200 on the Pro Lense set. I'd get cheaper parts but I know I'll just end up upgrading somewhere down the road. Might as well just do it now and save money in the long run. This should leave me nearly broke for a couple months and push back buying a new car for a good while. Hurray for the internet. So are you going to watercool yours? The ballast that is. It's awfully tempting.

02-12-2005, 06:35 PM	#17
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	No, there is no point. It is just a coil and a capacitor. (can a transformer coil really overheat anyways?) I'll have plenty of airflow with my gigantic fan. So far I have spent less than $150; add the LCD and various other bits and I have a good projector for 350 or so. People get good results with the regular lenses and 15" lcd, plus it is a proven design, so that is what I'm going for. And yes, a nice looking case is a must for sure. I'm looking into using cherry for the sides with a deep red stain, then using MDF for the top, bottom, front , and back and make them glossy reflective piano black. No visible hardware is also a must. __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-12-2005, 11:42 PM	#18
superart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: FL Posts: 787	wow, forgot to check on this thread for a day and it exploded with posts. cool btw, good call on not watercooling the ballast. It really is not needed. Dont watercool the bulb either. You loose 40% of light intensity that way. __________________ When you do things right, people won't be sure youv'e done anything at all. Looking to buy/trade for used Deep Fryer and Vacume Pack Sealer.

02-12-2005, 11:43 PM	#19
JWFokker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 269	Do you know the dba rating on that fan? I was thinking of using a blower behind the lamp and reflector, mounted internally since it would be quieter than using an axial fan.

02-12-2005, 11:55 PM	#21
superart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: FL Posts: 787	Old chinese froverb: When google fails, froogle prevails. http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=...ogle&scoring=p __________________ When you do things right, people won't be sure youv'e done anything at all. Looking to buy/trade for used Deep Fryer and Vacume Pack Sealer. Last edited by superart; 02-13-2005 at 02:05 AM.

02-13-2005, 12:40 AM	#22
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	Too bad those are all too small for the bulbs we are using. You can polish SS to a mirror finish with the right technique, my mom has some pots and pans that are SS and they look like mirrors. I will have an extra SS bowl type thing when I get my package in if you want to pay for half of what I got both for. (like $4) It is a cake pan that is used to make sports balls, it is 6" in diameter I think and has no holes or flat spots in it anywere (from what I understand). Should polish up nicely. The fan is an ebm, which means its an older papst, and it is very loud at 12v from all the air moving through it. It is nice and quiet at 7v and still moves a lot of air. I couldnt find a comperable fan on the papst website, the closest thing was a fan of the same size and thickness using almost the same amperage and voltage range and puts out around 220cfm. __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-13-2005, 02:07 AM	#23
superart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: FL Posts: 787	what size mirror do you need? __________________ When you do things right, people won't be sure youv'e done anything at all. Looking to buy/trade for used Deep Fryer and Vacume Pack Sealer.

02-13-2005, 10:21 AM	#24
killernoodle Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,014	See the problem with a mirror that small with that focal distance is that you would have to put the first fresnel and the whole lcd assembly farther away, this this in itself would reduce the light output much more than what you gain by that reflector. You would need something with a shorter focal distance and larger diameter. __________________ I have a nice computer.

02-13-2005, 04:20 PM	#25
JWFokker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 269	Yep. And the ones that are large enough usually only have diameter listed, no focal length given, or even depth so you could take a guess at it. We need optics mirrors and they just don't sell them large enough or with the correct focal length, at least they don't online. Fabrication would probably be too costly. We're stuck with stainless steel kitchenware it seems.

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