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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 10-07-2004, 02:55 PM   #51
pHaestus
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Yea if I could target specific "bad" brain cells with beer then I would be moving things around in my office with only my mind
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Unread 10-07-2004, 03:03 PM   #52
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Really the goal should be to work towards a world where the Procoolers were truly "pros of cooling optimization". That's the missing link: tying price, performance, noise, and size together to make the best tradeoffs for a given situation.

davidzo (sp?) made a really valid point the other day that in the US people are willing to spend $$$ on an Iwaki pump to increase flow rates but that they rely on $18 heatercores. In the EU the tendency is for expensive radiators and really small tubing/weak pumps. Neither one of these approaches is necessarily "better" but awareness of what exactly one is sacrificing in either extreme really isn't clear to the average wcer I think. It should be clear that you MUST make different component decisions depending upon your goals or you will waste money, space, quiet, or cooling. Is this site really providing people with the data and explanations to make informed choices though? Nah.
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Unread 10-07-2004, 03:24 PM   #53
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for WCing - the rad data is always the problem, not too much in the public domain

but it would be informative to work through the progression hsf -> heat pipe hsf -> WCing in different limiting scenarios
to be complete TECs and phase change would need to be included as well

awfully large amount of data needed
I have a bunch but nowhere near enough to approximate application 'limits' under different design assumptions
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Unread 10-07-2004, 08:16 PM   #54
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Once again, we should really spell out what data we are missing and see exactly how well we can come together and make some progress.
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Unread 10-07-2004, 09:26 PM   #55
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Where was this thread going again?
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Unread 10-08-2004, 12:08 AM   #56
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talcum:
I think it just sorta meanders meaninglessly until someone gets a "Euros vs. US" or "Procooling vs. xxxxx.com" flame war started.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 01:17 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhorst
Same here.. silence and fun!

I can agree with the groups:
low noise
low space
low cost

like how can we make a MCP600 "low noise"

Right with you on those groupings. IMHO I wouldn't start a low cost subforum here. There are plently of other forums out there for that. I like the high caliber of this forum. I spent six months on pcper’s watercooling forum and once I learned everything I could over there only then did I become a comfortable noob here. I usually only go to pcper’s watercooling forums now to help out really newbies. Hey, I don’t mind educating uber noobs, I was in their shoes less than a year ago, I would just like to keep “non-college-prep” out of the “honors” classes.

One thing we got to bear in mind when we talk about extreme is what’s extreme? Just pure power?. I love my Iwaki MD-20Z but that's just not an option for a dude who's going extreme--extremely small, like watermodding a SFF. Some guys are big-block muscle car fans. I’m cool with that. But what’s against having have half the horsepower in a much smaller car. Last time I checked a good little Prosche can kick some serious Dodge Viper tail. (Maybe not the best comparison, but you know what I’m getting at).


Quote:
Originally Posted by DryFire
You kind of need to define low noise. For someone who's used to some tornados or deltas just about any other fan is quiet. On the other hand people who are used to a Zalman 7000 most fans at 12v are rather loud.

So is low noise <30dba? <25dba? <20dba? etc...

i consider my computer too loud and the loudest thing is a suspended WD drive.

I don't know about everyone else but i look for silence, preformance, cost and how long i can use the current cooling setup. I could probably keep my pump, heater core and maybe evenmy water block for a rather long time.

IMHO low noise is when your sitting next to your computer and the only way you can tell if it's on is by the power light.

I didn't always think this way, but once you start quieting oooh it gets addicting!


Personally I would like to have it all, with the exception of size, and I'm not that tight money wise as I do most if not all of my stuff myself (as I'm sure most guys here do). To have both power and uber quietness you jsut got to sacrifice on size though. I'll be using at least three heatercores (a pair in an external box) and a 1' x 3' "reserator" (actually an uninsulated hot water heater copper cylinder) as well as lots of foam and undervolting/PWM to achieve what I want.


Oh, and if you’re the type of guy who puts Vantec anything-but-“Stealth” fans in the same category as delta screamers, SPCR is an excellent site for you to check out. (www.silentpcreview.com). Warning though. Their specialty is fans…their watercooling forum isn’t exactly ProCooling level, or even close to pcper.

Even if you're not into quiet computing, which is fine since you should be able to get along in life with a hearing problem just fine ( j/k of course), I suggest this 67CFM @ 12V to you. Why? Well it behaves beautifully on PWM and undervolts well on DC as well. Then it's up to you how you want to run your rig.
Link: http://www.mnpctech.com/Globe.html


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Last edited by DrCR; 10-08-2004 at 08:25 AM.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 01:48 AM   #58
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Quote:
davidzo (sp?) made a really valid point the other day that in the US people are willing to spend $$$ on an Iwaki pump to increase flow rates but that they rely on $18 heatercores. In the EU the tendency is for expensive radiators and really small tubing/weak pumps. Neither one of these approaches is necessarily "better" but awareness of what exactly one is sacrificing in either extreme really isn't clear to the average wcer I think. It should be clear that you MUST make different component decisions depending upon your goals or you will waste money, space, quiet, or cooling. Is this site really providing people with the data and explanations to make informed choices though? Nah.
I disagree with his point. People use heatercores mostly because of performance, not price.

Most people here don't have a problem spending more on a radiator, its just that theres really no compelling option aside from a heatercore. I think europeans don't use cores because they don't have the ubiquitous 'bigmama' core available locally in virtually any populated area. And even then I've seen lots of European systems with heatercores, just not the same type, so its harder for people to pick out a suitable part.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 08:46 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redleader
the ubiquitous 'bigmama' core available locally in virtually any populated area.
Actually, if you're getting one of these, go for the Mercury Montego core, not the Chevette - approx same price but inlet/outlet pipes are suitable for 1/2 ID tubing without soldering J.B.welding anything - just cut down to stubs.
Coupled with the coolingworks shroud, these are nearly as easy to install as a BI Xtreme (with two of these shrouds they are as easy as a BI - just a matter of placing it on a case hole for a 120mm fan).
All that said, if BI made a slightly larger frontal area rad - same thickness as the "pro" series - for a semi-reasonable price a lot of folks would probably be using that. Sometimes there just isn't room for the 2x120mm fan setup. I do think that a minimum frontal area is in the 220-230 sq cm range, though.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 08:53 AM   #60
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it becomes a length vs. width exercise if keeping the rad within the case
vertical or horizontal ?
front or back ?
into which bloody case ?

Bob
how did you come to that area ?

EDIT
I should add that making a rad longer is simple and requires only a longer sideplate
Willie at HW Labs will make such if a reasonable order is placed (I'm sure)
but making the rad wider involves new tooling for the headers also
is the market there for such ?

remember, this is the outer fringe of WCing eh ?

Last edited by BillA; 10-08-2004 at 09:10 AM.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 04:33 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
it becomes a length vs. width exercise if keeping the rad within the case
vertical or horizontal ?
front or back ?
into which bloody case ?

Bob
how did you come to that area ?

EDIT
I should add that making a rad longer is simple and requires only a longer sideplate
Willie at HW Labs will make such if a reasonable order is placed (I'm sure)
but making the rad wider involves new tooling for the headers also
is the market there for such ?

remember, this is the outer fringe of WCing eh ?
Hope you have read Wolverine 2.5
http://www.wlv.com/products/databook/
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Unread 10-08-2004, 04:43 PM   #62
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yup yup
best reference out there
but you know I do it bassackwards Les

I was really only addressing the mfgn considerations which will dictate product cost/availability
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Unread 10-08-2004, 05:14 PM   #63
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Thanks for the link Les. Re-affirms a few ideas for me.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 05:17 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
yup yup
best reference out there
but you know I do it bassackwards Les

I was really only addressing the mfgn considerations which will dictate product cost/availability
I try to re-invent the wheel
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Unread 10-09-2004, 07:30 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
prb123
did you read the post preceeding yours ?
did you understand its meaning ?
as in zero OC ?
if no OC, performance is meaningless - it will do what it was binned for by the mfgr

no tutorial here, just people posting
Don't forget this is Procooling. Unless I finally get around to building a PVR/Home Theater PC zero OC is blasphemy.
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Unread 10-10-2004, 10:07 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
Bob
how did you come to that area ?
I should have been clearer that this was personal opinion (sorry). It's based on my own experiences with 6x6 (or so) heater cores and undervolted fans, Cathar's posting on in-air-series-rads and my experiences with both BI pro and BI Pro II rads.
1) BI Pro is not really sufficient for cooling an overclocked overvolted CPU, even with a moderately loud fan (Panaflo M1A at 12V)
- so 144 sq cm not so great, particularly with a quiet fan.
2) 6x6 cores are fine for cooling an overclocked CPU - even with low powered fans, so long as you keep them out of stall, which means stacking fans (same airflow but more pressure)
- so 235 sq cm fine but that's with whatever additional efficiency the 2" thick fins give. A WAG is 10% , so say we'd want 260 sq cm or so
3) BI Pro II rads fine for cooling overclocked CPU even with Panaflo L1As at 5V - so long as there isn't something else in the case impeding airflow.
- so 288 sq cm is good, too
So... what I'd really want as a minimum would be more like 260 sq cm - but it's possible that the additional fin thickness gives almost no additional benefit - and it's also possible that some frontal area less than 235 (but definitely more than 144) is actually fine.
Sorry I don't have anything more solid than that - would love to get corrected with "real" numbers, even if it included a whack upside the head...
Oh - the other attraction of the "big momma" is that it's actually very easy to get into one of the "standard" places in a case - the lower front - just takes a few minutes with a jig saw (I actually use an air body saw, but it's the same idea) to carve a simple square hole - actually easier than "opening up" the grille of a 120mm fan opening before putting a BI Pro there.
PS: Yes I absolutely understand that we're the "outer fringe". I don't actually expect a hardware manufacturer to design something to suit us (big setup costs and no volume to speak of) - but the closet I get to understanding what hardware works for my particular application (and I'm pretty much focused on low noise first - then performance) - the more likely I am to find something that works for me.
I'm currently thinking about the fedco 2-775 (transpro 39 8320, 4seasons 2466). At just under 300 sq cm it had ought to have enough frontal area (although it's a bit thicker than I'd like), being 7.375"x6.25" it's a nice "square" shape that might work well in that lower-front position - 7.375 plus tanks is probably too high for a lot of cases, except maybe the Genie - and I can flip it sideways for a shorter but wider installation. Ah, well - off topic, but was what I was thinking about when I mentioned those numbers.
Oh - and the fact that it's $27 (rock auto) is going to have some folks assuming I got that core because it was cheap, right?
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Unread 10-10-2004, 10:27 PM   #67
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I was under the assumption that stacking fans did SFA; right or wrong?

I'm surprised no other manu's have done a top mounted unit like a koolance, only with decent performance. Im sure it wouldnt be that hard to make a 'roof rack' style arrangement for a case, using the rear psu screw holes, and a custom front faceplate (perhaps with a level indicator for some kind of res, hint hint) which screwed into the drive bays. Even if just to hold a 2x120mm rad, it would be worth it, I think. Id rather have something on top of my system than hanging off the back of it.
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Unread 10-10-2004, 11:02 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
I was under the assumption that stacking fans did SFA; right or wrong?
Neither - it's one of those "it depends" things.
If you've got a fan undervolted to the point that it's not pushing much air through a resistance (heater core), then stacking a second one may produce enough additional pressure to "fix" the problem. The reason to do this (rather than just add more voltage to the stalled fan) is that you might end up producing less noise with two stacked, undervolted fans.
Bear in mind that I'm basing this generalization on one data point, using panaflo L1A fan(s) pushing through a 6x6x2 heater core, where two fans at 5V (stacked) were quieter than a single one at 7V - and produced approximately the same cooling (same temp reading from MBM which may or may not mean anything).
If you haven't stalled a fan, I'd guess that stacking another fan won't help (unless you like fan noise - as it'll certainly add some of that...)
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Unread 10-11-2004, 09:45 AM   #69
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bk
good explanation of your reasoning, Thanks
this is a vexing 'issue' as the solution is always case specific
I put a THermoChill 120 crossways in the front of a Lian Li with a fancy convoluted sheat metal plenum, but I could never concieve of 'intending' such a rad for that case.
A good modder can do almost anything - but such are not 'products' for a mfgr (my perspective)

I hear the low noise people speaking, but I think a low noise (designed) rad would not be acceptable w/o also some higher CFM performance capability - otherwise buy a Reserator no ?
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Unread 10-11-2004, 10:13 AM   #70
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Are the fins on a BIP/BIX/Thermochill corrugated? (Is that the term for the bumps in the middle that are found on heater cores?)
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Unread 10-11-2004, 10:17 AM   #71
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slit (louvered), std fin design
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Unread 10-11-2004, 12:56 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
I hear the low noise people speaking, but I think a low noise (designed) rad would not be acceptable w/o also some higher CFM performance capability - otherwise buy a Reserator no ?
To the extent that the low noise people only want stock performance, and don't mind this big thing attached to their PC, then, yes, the reserator is a fine solution. For that matter, you could have a sealed system with some sort of heat exchanger in the bottom of one of those desktop fountains - and have a nicely disguised swamp cooler. It'd only work where evaporative cooling would work, so maybe Japan in the Summer is out - which might explain why we haven't seen one from Zalman.
On a more serious note - it is possible that a thin square rad shrouded with a single 120mm axial fan might be exactly what the low noise folks were asking for - particularly if the fan was well matched to the rad, case and plenum - and if the fan was typically undervolted (control it with an in-coolant thermistor, maybe - which would mean not one of those L1As I'm so fond of - maybe Papst axials if they're OK with PWM).
It's looking like the Genie might be a good candidate for this (large area in the front, looks (from the photos) that at least one of the bezels has big slots in the front.
And, yes, for low noise, I think the solution is going to be case specific as it'll be a matter of matching the fan performance/noise curve with the total system impedance.
Does it make sense for a manufacturer to play in this space? I dunno. A lot of what you'd be selling would be the knowledge of what components worked best together and you need to make a return on your time as well as whatever setup costs for shroud production. On the other hand, I think there is a market (particularly in Europe) for a low-noise, somewhat high performance, single box solution - but I'm not betting my bottom line on that.
Finally - I'll post a report on the 2-775 once I get one into a case. I guess I should try to get it into my current FS020 "test mule" as I can leave pump and block alone and get a hint as to how well it's working without spending the time pH does (beats me how he finds time for it - oh right it's the "big bucks" that keep getting mentioned here... )
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Unread 10-11-2004, 02:41 PM   #73
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The way i see it:
- users want a WC system
- a working system (meaning that it works as intended by the manufacturer)
- low maintenance and practical system (serviceable)
- fully integrated with their existing hardware.

It seems that future adopters of WC are caught between the marketing from the manufacturers, the low noise cliché, the worry that their systems aren´t as good as their neighbours (can we call it "performance"?) and the bling factor.

Things are very mixed up.
The manufacturers have no new (definite) ideas, and so they try to target one product to suit everyone.
The public isn't very demanding, (excluding the Procoolers) so they don't give clear "orientations" that can be used in order to fine-tune a product.

So, without any guidance people use very different parts in order to achieve very different goals escaping from the real objective of a kit as created by the manufacturer.
Right now you can adopt a Tt WC system and swap parts in order to "gain some performance". Is this still low-end/low-noise/or performance at a budget?
The same applies to almost everything in WC.

In my opinion the best attempt so far is the one that Apple did.
Maybe it isn´t the best but reveals a concept and a definite idea how Apple interprets the notion of a WC system.

As for the radiators, known for their volume and their difficult relation with pc cases, one example of a good integration is this one from 1a-cooling.de
Again no performance criteria here.




You can see what it looks like on a Lian-li 6077 case on their web site . Just srool down and the picture is there.

Last edited by Jag; 10-11-2004 at 03:00 PM.
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Unread 10-11-2004, 03:07 PM   #74
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thanks for tthe input guys
Jag, (some ?) mfgrs have plenty of new ideas, the trick is to identify viable markets
that European and US oriented kits should be different is I think obvious, and this eliminates much of the conflict

in-case solutions can be made more efficiently, but this is a different market completely
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Unread 10-11-2004, 03:21 PM   #75
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Bill, why should Euro and U.S WC products be that different?
When someone comes up with a good idea, that brings the best of them no matter the side, people will adopt it.
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