"Springy" hose - Page 2

bigben2k · 06-24-2002, 08:02 AM

That's all good advice, but here's one more solution:
instead of an 80 mm fan, use 4 40mm fans. You should get a bit more flow for the same noise level. It's not energy efficient, it's more expensive, and if you have to supply different voltages, then you're looking at lots of parts, but you should still get a bit more flow.

gmat · 06-24-2002, 09:02 AM

Hmm that would be definitely worth a try. There are so many parameters here that one cannot predict what would happen:
- consider there are 4 engines instead of 1
- add up the power (=heat) of those 4 fans together
- there are *so* many more fan blades, therefore so many more turbulence at blade tips...
All this would balance the noise reduction.
Not to mention the differences in backpressure....
There's one thing to do: experiment !

bigben2k · 06-24-2002, 09:07 AM

I'd also try 9 * 30mm fans instead of one 92 mm... but my shop is packed away

The theory is that the fan noise comes from the tip of the fan blade, as it hits air at a high speed.

Cyco-Dude · 06-24-2002, 11:34 AM

i disagree. most noise come from the motor. and i still dont think more smaller fans will give you more flow, but i digress.....

9 30mm fans.....gimme a break

bigben2k · 06-24-2002, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cyco-Dude
i disagree. most noise come from the motor. and i still dont think more smaller fans will give you more flow, but i digress.....

9 30mm fans.....gimme a break

I disagree. I think the noise comes from the fan blades.

Cyco-Dude · 06-24-2002, 11:48 AM

ok, go grab a fan and chop the blades off and see how loud it is (hahaha)

cybrsamurai · 06-24-2002, 12:50 PM

Im almost positive that the noise comes from the fanblades "cutting" the air, not the motor.

Cyco-Dude · 06-24-2002, 01:05 PM

go for it:

Quote:

Originally posted by Cyco-Dude
ok, go grab a fan and chop the blades off and see how loud it is (hahaha)

id do it myself but i dont have any spare fans

cybrsamurai · 06-24-2002, 01:14 PM

Ok, I'm going to cut off the blades and will post my results even if im wrong. Any special requests for my test?

cybrsamurai · 06-24-2002, 01:18 PM

does anyone know where to get sound measuring devices? I could just say it seemed quieter or louder, or have a couple of second opinions with my own. You guys let me know. I was thinking I would use a COLORFUL CF-128025MS 80mm fan and a TOP MOTOR DF1206BM 35mm. Any other suggestions?

bigben2k · 06-24-2002, 01:25 PM

I'd try radio-scrap...

dcrainman · 06-24-2002, 01:37 PM

thanks for the support

Cyco-Dude · 06-25-2002, 12:22 AM

hmmm....well using different fans would be interesting, such as 120mm fans, 60mm delta black labels, etc.
know its logical the fan would get quieter (no blades = no sound of air moving), but what im interested in is does the motor get quieter? does the motor make noise (which i think yes; the fan blades arent making that annoying whine on my delta black label).
you can use dB meters, but its also going to be subjective (how does the fan sound befor and after? does the pitch of the fan change? how much?? etc).
maybe ill rip my poor delta apart once i get watercooled (no need for it then

)

now that i think about it, i can kill an old PSU fan since the PSU doesnt work heh......
ive also got a crappy 40mm fan that came with my NB and my R8500's stock HSF i could hack...

cybrsamurai · 06-25-2002, 12:59 AM

Ok, I have recorded one of my 35mm loud ass fans and did a before and after video and the blades definetly make more noise than the motor (not pitch change but much less sound). I don't have a db meter nor do I feel like buying one so you can hear for your self.

download the video...

http://www.cheesyassmovies.com/fantest2.WMV

Cyco-Dude · 06-25-2002, 01:31 AM

35mm fan? 35mm wide? 35mm deep?
i get garbage if i click on the link...(using Mozilla; IE seems to have no problems tho grrrr.....)

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!! cool video man, u rock

altho i couldnt heard too good so i'll have to take your word on it.

cybrsamurai · 06-25-2002, 04:27 AM

No prob. It was kinda fun making the vid

I promise im telling the truth.

The fan was a TOP MOTOR DF1206BM 35mm.

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 07:55 AM

Thanks CyberSamurai, for the sacrifice, in the interest of science!

CD: See, I told you

So to get back on the thread here... the 4 fans will be quieter than the single one.

gmat · 06-25-2002, 09:11 AM

Thats a dodgy comment BB2K. One will want to make a REAL test with a DB-meter, a spectrum analyzer, and a soundproofed recording chamber. Thats the bare minimum.
Or else you open the door to random claims. Heck someone told me his delta black label was "silent" - he has 4 deltas in his case...
At work, my HD is "silent". I cannot hear it over the 12 other running PCs all around me.
All in all i wouldnt rush to claim 4 fans are more silent than just 1...

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 09:18 AM

Without running any test you should be able to realize that the blades make the noise... the beauty of electric motors is just that (they hardly make any noise)

gmat are you building that radiator design on your own or do you have a place to get it from? either way I'd be interested in seeing how it looks

gmat · 06-25-2002, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dcrainman
Without running any test you should be able to realize that the blades make the noise... the beauty of electric motors is just that (they hardly make any noise)

Man you didnt heard a Delta spinning, or my 2 high flow YS-Tech's. I can make the difference between the whoosh of fan blades and the squealing scream of the engine.

Quote:

gmat are you building that radiator design on your own or do you have a place to get it from? either way I'd be interested in seeing how it looks

me ? what ? where ? must be someone else

I'm building a total passive cooling solution but i think that's not what you're talking about..

(EDIT) oops i read the thread again and yes thats what we're talking about. Well i'll use a 'composite' engineering technique: i'll add passive heatsinks to a long flat block. That's currently my plans but our neighbours at work are composite material specialists, and they've got fine hardware (CNCs..) and i can access it easily. I'm currently designing the whole thing in pro/engineer.

zoson · 06-25-2002, 09:38 AM

Just posting some hard facts. Delta 60mm 38cfm = 40 some odd decibles. Delta 80mm 80cfm = 52 decibels. Larger fan = Lower noise for more cfm.

Secondly, fanless watercooling IS possible with a blow hole. You can cool your radiator passively via convection if you mount it on a "blowhole" in the top of your case with no fan. The heat from the radiator will heat the air in it, and it will rise out of the radiator and then out of the blow hole, and this will create a low pressure zone within the foils of the radiator and new cool air will be drawn in. This is the same way a monitor cools itself.
Of course I do not reccomend this method of cooling, but my system is built this way, and it WILL run overclocked at 1760 from 1.53 at 2.15vCore with the fan on my blowhole turned off completely. This is a loss of about 70mhz.
-Zoson

pHaestus · 06-25-2002, 09:40 AM

When choosing fans, consider your application, and then go to the engineering specs. How do the P-Q curves for 40mm fans compare to 80mm fans at the same noise level? 80mm vs 172mm? How useful will 4 40mm fans be without cowling and ducting them (consider the dead spots).

Just because several 80mm fans move the same amount of air as a 172mm Rotron in free air does NOT mean that they will perform the same on a duct connected to a radiator. That is a bit of misdirection there in my opinion.

dcrainman · 06-25-2002, 09:57 AM

Zoson I'd be very interested to learn how that heat exchanger works out

bigben2k · 06-25-2002, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by zoson
Just posting some hard facts. Delta 60mm 38cfm = 40 some odd decibles. Delta 80mm 80cfm = 52 decibels. Larger fan = Lower noise for more cfm.

Ok, so you're throwing us numbers where twice the CFM is achieved with only 12 more dB...

The problem is that the dB scale is logarithmic. A 12dB difference is roughly 10 times louder...

Deltas run so fast that it's clear that the motor makes a significant amount of noise, but putting aside the exception, i.e. the Delta fans, I still maintain that the fan blades cause most of the noise, and that the equivalent multiple fans will run quieter.

pHaestus: Glad to see you again! Yes the PQ curve is important, as it is with any fan. There are many factors that affect fan performance including (but not limited to):
a) the pitch/angle of the fan blade
b) the gap between the fan blade and the fan housing.

Does anyone have numbers? If I have time today, I'll pull something up.

Cyco-Dude · 06-25-2002, 04:50 PM

well im still not buying into that, but......

i was wondering; what if you enclosed the ends of the fan blades in some kind of cylinder? (kinda like the TMD fans by YS-Tech) would that quiet them down any?? you may have to remove the casing of the fan so the cylinder would fit, but its something to play with (maybe just make a loop out of paper and tape it to the blades or something). it might be easier using a 120mm fan since theres more space between the blades and casing.

06-24-2002, 08:02 AM	#26
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	That's all good advice, but here's one more solution: instead of an 80 mm fan, use 4 40mm fans. You should get a bit more flow for the same noise level. It's not energy efficient, it's more expensive, and if you have to supply different voltages, then you're looking at lots of parts, but you should still get a bit more flow. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-24-2002, 09:07 AM	#28
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I'd also try 9 * 30mm fans instead of one 92 mm... but my shop is packed away The theory is that the fan noise comes from the tip of the fan blade, as it hits air at a high speed. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-24-2002, 12:50 PM	#32
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	Im almost positive that the noise comes from the fanblades "cutting" the air, not the motor. __________________ Air cooled my ass.

06-24-2002, 01:14 PM	#34
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	Ok, I'm going to cut off the blades and will post my results even if im wrong. Any special requests for my test? __________________ Air cooled my ass.

06-24-2002, 01:18 PM	#35
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	does anyone know where to get sound measuring devices? I could just say it seemed quieter or louder, or have a couple of second opinions with my own. You guys let me know. I was thinking I would use a COLORFUL CF-128025MS 80mm fan and a TOP MOTOR DF1206BM 35mm. Any other suggestions? __________________ Air cooled my ass.

06-24-2002, 09:02 AM	#27
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	Hmm that would be definitely worth a try. There are so many parameters here that one cannot predict what would happen: - consider there are 4 engines instead of 1 - add up the power (=heat) of those 4 fans together - there are so many more fan blades, therefore so many more turbulence at blade tips... All this would balance the noise reduction. Not to mention the differences in backpressure.... There's one thing to do: experiment !

06-24-2002, 11:34 AM	#29
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	i disagree. most noise come from the motor. and i still dont think more smaller fans will give you more flow, but i digress..... 9 30mm fans.....gimme a break

06-24-2002, 11:48 AM	#31
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	ok, go grab a fan and chop the blades off and see how loud it is (hahaha)

06-24-2002, 01:25 PM	#36
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I'd try radio-scrap... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-24-2002, 01:37 PM	#37
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	thanks for the support

06-25-2002, 12:22 AM	#38
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	hmmm....well using different fans would be interesting, such as 120mm fans, 60mm delta black labels, etc. know its logical the fan would get quieter (no blades = no sound of air moving), but what im interested in is does the motor get quieter? does the motor make noise (which i think yes; the fan blades arent making that annoying whine on my delta black label). you can use dB meters, but its also going to be subjective (how does the fan sound befor and after? does the pitch of the fan change? how much?? etc). maybe ill rip my poor delta apart once i get watercooled (no need for it then ) now that i think about it, i can kill an old PSU fan since the PSU doesnt work heh...... ive also got a crappy 40mm fan that came with my NB and my R8500's stock HSF i could hack... Last edited by Cyco-Dude; 06-25-2002 at 12:31 AM.

06-25-2002, 12:59 AM	#39
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	Ok, I have recorded one of my 35mm loud ass fans and did a before and after video and the blades definetly make more noise than the motor (not pitch change but much less sound). I don't have a db meter nor do I feel like buying one so you can hear for your self. download the video... http://www.cheesyassmovies.com/fantest2.WMV __________________ Air cooled my ass.

06-25-2002, 01:31 AM	#40
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	35mm fan? 35mm wide? 35mm deep? i get garbage if i click on the link...(using Mozilla; IE seems to have no problems tho grrrr.....) HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!! cool video man, u rock altho i couldnt heard too good so i'll have to take your word on it. Last edited by Cyco-Dude; 06-25-2002 at 01:39 AM.

06-25-2002, 04:27 AM	#41
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	No prob. It was kinda fun making the vid I promise im telling the truth. The fan was a TOP MOTOR DF1206BM 35mm. __________________ Air cooled my ass.

06-25-2002, 07:55 AM	#42
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Thanks CyberSamurai, for the sacrifice, in the interest of science! CD: See, I told you So to get back on the thread here... the 4 fans will be quieter than the single one. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-25-2002, 09:11 AM	#43
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	Thats a dodgy comment BB2K. One will want to make a REAL test with a DB-meter, a spectrum analyzer, and a soundproofed recording chamber. Thats the bare minimum. Or else you open the door to random claims. Heck someone told me his delta black label was "silent" - he has 4 deltas in his case... At work, my HD is "silent". I cannot hear it over the 12 other running PCs all around me. All in all i wouldnt rush to claim 4 fans are more silent than just 1...

06-25-2002, 09:18 AM	#44
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	Without running any test you should be able to realize that the blades make the noise... the beauty of electric motors is just that (they hardly make any noise) gmat are you building that radiator design on your own or do you have a place to get it from? either way I'd be interested in seeing how it looks

06-25-2002, 09:38 AM	#46
zoson Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: X Posts: 204	Just posting some hard facts. Delta 60mm 38cfm = 40 some odd decibles. Delta 80mm 80cfm = 52 decibels. Larger fan = Lower noise for more cfm. Secondly, fanless watercooling IS possible with a blow hole. You can cool your radiator passively via convection if you mount it on a "blowhole" in the top of your case with no fan. The heat from the radiator will heat the air in it, and it will rise out of the radiator and then out of the blow hole, and this will create a low pressure zone within the foils of the radiator and new cool air will be drawn in. This is the same way a monitor cools itself. Of course I do not reccomend this method of cooling, but my system is built this way, and it WILL run overclocked at 1760 from 1.53 at 2.15vCore with the fan on my blowhole turned off completely. This is a loss of about 70mhz. -Zoson __________________ Core i7 930 @ 4254Hz 22x193 \| ASUS R3E 901 BIOS \| 12GB Mushkin Blackline 3x4GB @ 1547MHz 7-8-7-24-1N \| Lian Li PC-A10B 2x EVGA GTX275 SLI @ 720/1266/1566 \| 2x 80GB Intel X25-M G2 SSD Raid 0 \| 3x 1TB Samsung Spinpoint 7.2K Raid 5 \| Corsair 950TX H2O \| Enzotech Sapphire Rev.A \| EK-FB RE3 \| Swiftech - 2x MCW60/GTX275 Unisink, MCP655b, MCRes Micro.v2 \| 3x HWLabs SR1-120 あなたの神への弓 Time isn't wasted, when you're gettin' wasted.

06-25-2002, 09:40 AM	#47
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	When choosing fans, consider your application, and then go to the engineering specs. How do the P-Q curves for 40mm fans compare to 80mm fans at the same noise level? 80mm vs 172mm? How useful will 4 40mm fans be without cowling and ducting them (consider the dead spots). Just because several 80mm fans move the same amount of air as a 172mm Rotron in free air does NOT mean that they will perform the same on a duct connected to a radiator. That is a bit of misdirection there in my opinion.

06-25-2002, 09:57 AM	#48
dcrainman Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ma, usa Posts: 50	Zoson I'd be very interested to learn how that heat exchanger works out

06-25-2002, 04:50 PM	#50
Cyco-Dude Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 836	well im still not buying into that, but...... i was wondering; what if you enclosed the ends of the fan blades in some kind of cylinder? (kinda like the TMD fans by YS-Tech) would that quiet them down any?? you may have to remove the casing of the fan so the cylinder would fit, but its something to play with (maybe just make a loop out of paper and tape it to the blades or something). it might be easier using a 120mm fan since theres more space between the blades and casing.

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