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Xtreme Cooling LN2, Dry Ice, Peltiers, etc... All the usual suspects

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Unread 07-20-2006, 11:23 PM   #1
michaelzhao
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Default Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Here is my final Peltier Setup.

My mobo is the DFI SLI-DR Expert and my GFX card is the EVGA 7800GT. My processor is a Opteron 148 CAB2E 0547GPMW.

My setup is as follows:

Meanwell SE600-12
Laing D5
Swiftech 5002-64T
Swiftech MCW-60T
Dangerden Black Ice GTS Stealth 240
Swiftech Micro1000 Reservoir
1/2'' Tygon Tubing
PC Ice
A Relay Switch Kit
---------------------------------------------------

Suggestions always welcome.

I also have a few quick questions, does reservoir size matter?

Also, is my processor coldbugged? If so, what processors aren't (Dual or Single core)?
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Unread 07-21-2006, 05:17 PM   #2
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Pump
I'd go with a DDC+ with top inlet (DIY, alphacool DDC-Ultra, Radiical turbo head) instead of a D5. It performs better, dumps less heat, has a lower soundlevel and it's smaller.

CPU block
Swiftech 5002-64T has an aluminum top which is bad in combination with copper, period! Maybe you could mod an Apogee, maybe convert it to Apogee-T with some parts from a Swiftech MCW-60T? Or just get a Danger Den Maze4-1.

Radiator
I'd go for ThermoChill instead of BI GT since it performs better. If it's too expensive I'd go with Swiftech/Cooltek or maybe Coolingworks instead.

Tank vs. fillport
I'd choose T-line + fillport over res any day. Maybe a delrin fillport from petras techshop or a delrin or brass from DangerDenStore.com? Make sure you get a big T-connection so you don't waste flow, can be found at mcmaster or vcore.dk. If you want a tank maybe alphacools mini tank is a less restrictive alternative?
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Unread 07-22-2006, 02:25 AM   #3
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Pump:
I have several friends suggest the DDC to me, but I leaned toward the D5 because I didn't want to take the time/energy/risk to mod it. However, the Radiical Turbo Head, I know it adapts to the 1/2'' tubing, but does it also bring the benefits of 1/2'' tubing? (Sounds like a stupid question and it probably is...)

The factory modded alphacool is over 90 euros, way too expensive for me. The Radiical Turbo Head is quoted for me at 40 bucks (shipped). Also too expensive.

Is the D5 that much worse? If not, I'll get the D5 instead unless the DDC is MUCH better...

CPU Block:
Why is aluminum bad with copper? I have considered the DangerDen as well. And since you bring up that point, I would like you to confirm that the DangerDen block comes with everything such as gaskets and such. I do not want to buy anything myself. The Swiftech kit comes with everything.

http://www.dangerdenstore.com/produc...&cat=58&page=1.

Link is right above. Thanks.

Radiator:
I think I'm going to have to go with the BI GT because of space reasons. I simply do not have extra space in my case to accomadate the ThermoChill. Thats why I got the GT, because of its lowprofile design.

I'm going to be using Yate Loon fans on it or Nexus fans (quieter). For the record, I know that the Nexus is a Yate Loon.

Res:
Point taken, will be using a t-line. But, does Alphacools mini tank perform just as well as a t-line? Or is still slightly worse?

Thanks for the help guys. Every time I think I have something figured out, I come here and it gets blasted to shreds. But, its nice for the great help anyways.

Last edited by michaelzhao; 07-22-2006 at 07:57 PM.
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Unread 07-22-2006, 11:09 PM   #4
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Pump
I don't really understand what you mean with "adapts to 1/2" tubing..."? It works just as good as the D5 with 1/2" tubing and performs even better. However there isn't any test yet that compares the different tops, all we know for certain is that the top inlet increases flow a lot.
  • Standard top
    Non top mounted inlet and small channels. Doesn't take much space has a much lower flow than tops with top mounted inlet.
  • Radiicals Turbo Head
    Top mounted inlet with big inlet and outlet channels, smaller than alphacools top but lacks some of alphacools mounting capabillities. Some belive that this is the best performing top because of the larger channels. However recent tests indicates that a bigger outlet significantly reduces performance so I belive that this top perfoms best with a big inlet barb and a small outlet barb. The test isn't done yet so don't quote me on this! Keep an eye on H2Okoeling.dk where the test will be published when it's done (requires some danish skills).
  • Alphacools top
    Top mounted inlet with small inlet and outlet channels. Boring out the inlet channel to around 10mm does seem to yield better performance, but don't touch the outlet channel you will just get worse performance. I belive that if you enlargen the inlet channel this top performs on par with the Radiical top with big inlet and small outlet barbs.
  • DIY top inlet mod
    The most frequent mod is to just mount a barb on top. This leaves the outlet channel very narrow, which I belive is a good thing! It should perform as good as a Radiical top with big inlet and small outlet or an alphacool top with bored out inlet, of course it depends solely on the modders skills.
So the least effort but most expensive high performance top should be Radiicals top with a big inlet barb and small outlet barb, I suppose something like this would be suitable for outlet barb. 10mm OD should be around <8mm ID which should be about right.
A slightly cheaper top which requires slightly more work would be alphacools top with enlarged inlet channel.
The cheapest alternative is to modify the original top but this also requires some work.

Tubing
It sounds like you're going to use 1/2" ID tubing? 7/16" ID is actually the least restrictive ID with G1/4 barbs because of the less turbulent transition between tube and barb. The maximum ID of a G1/4 barb is around 10mm, combined with 1/2" (12.7mm) tubing the transition becomes kinda turbulent and hence more restrictive. 7/16" ID tubing has an ID of 11.1mm which means less restriction. Since most blocks, rads and pumps use G1/4 barbs 7/16" ID is usually the best alternative, and because of it's smaller size it's also less prone to kink.

CPU block
Aluminium and copper means corrosion. You can slow the corrosion down by using anodized aluminum and suitable amounts of anti corrosion additives, but it will just postpone the corrosion not prevent it.

You have the option to add insulation (neopren kit) when buying the Maze4-1 and I would also add the brass top. It doesn't seem to come with a TEC but you can buy one of those in the same shop or an even better one from ebay or such. I'm not sure if the insulation kit includes conformal coating and dielectric grease, you should ask them about that. If it doesn't you can buy those at the same store.

Fillport vs Reservoir
Some reservoirs are very restrictive and some are not. I guess a good res is about as restrictive as a bad T-connection. I didn't see any difference in temps when switching from vcore's XL T-connection to alphacools mini tank, but I can't measure flow and my T-ban only has a resolution of 0.5 degrees so there could be a minimal difference. H2Okoeling will do an article on the subject in a not to distand future.

Fans
I love my Yates, good choice! But at 12V they're still a bit too loud for me to sleep in the same room as. That's why everyone should have a good fan controller that varies the speed automatically, like mCubeds T-balancers. The accurate temp sensors are great too.
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Unread 07-22-2006, 11:32 PM   #5
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Okay, I think I'm going with the Swiftech MCP350 (DDC Ultra) and adding the Radiical pump head.

For the tubing, I was considering using 7/16'' before versus the 1/2'' because of the added benefits. But I was afraid of compatibility issues, so now, since those have been settled, I'll go with the 7/16''.

I'll go with the MAZE-4 w/ the brass top and the neoprene. As for the conformal coating and dielectric grease, those can be bought from Dangerden store as you mentioned.

I'm still a toss up for t-line/reservoir but leaning toward a t-line. I can't use a drive bay res. because I wont have any spare drive bays. I have 5 drive bays in my case. Two are used by my DVD drives, 2 will be used by my Meanwell SE-600-12 PSU and the last will be used by my radiator. So, I'm pretty sure I'll have to use a t-line.

I'll undervolt the Yates anyways. I'm not sure what that will do for peformance, what do you think? It'll be on a 7V channel. Do you think the lower CFM will stil be adequate for cooling? Or do you think I should get the Papst fans?
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Unread 07-22-2006, 11:46 PM   #6
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Okay, I think I'm going with the Swiftech MCP350 (DDC Ultra) and adding the Radiical pump head.
I'm not sure but I don't think that all MCP350's are 18w/Plus/Ultra/red impeller DDC's but only a few because of some mistake. Most of them are standard 10w DDC's (I could be wrong). However I'm pretty sure that Danger Dens DDC's are the newer stronger 18w version.

7/16" ID, I was afraid of compatibility issues.
You can always get small ID tubing on big OD barbs with some hot water and cursing, however it can be hard to get big ID tubing to seal on small barbs.

Do you think the lower CFM will stil be adequate for cooling? Or do you think I should get the Papst fans?
Hard to say, the only way to be sure is to try.
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Unread 07-25-2006, 05:52 AM   #7
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Thank you very much mx for you help. You've been awesome. I'm just about to set off with TEC cooling. Hope it will be pleasant.

Last few questions though...

Do you agree with the rankings of these popular radiators?

1.Blackice Extreme 2/3 or Thermochill 120.2/3

Pros: Very good performance with axial fans, easy to mount in most tower cases.
Cons: Price.


2. Blackice GT Series

Pros: Very good performance with axial fans, easy to mount in most tower cases. Nice price.
Cons: High FPI will trap a lot of dust. HERE. Take note, regardless of the GT's performance, it will be a dust trap due to it's high FPI and will be very hard to clean without removing the rad and hosing the fins with water. I have to do this with my HE120.3. The PA series and much easier to blow out with air due to their low FPI.



3. Double heater core

Pros: Cheap alternative to prebuilt computer radiators.
Cons: More awkward to mount, need shrouds to perform well, painting for aesthetics.


4. Blackice Pro 2/3

Pros: Good performance, cheaper than Extreme or Thermochills.
Cons: Price.


5. Blackice Extreme 120x1, Thermochill 120.1

Pros: Good performance, less space required.
Cons: Less performance than larger counterparts.


6. Single heater core

Pros: Cheaper alternative to BIX1, Thermochill 120.1
Cons: More awkward to mount, need shrouds to perform well, painting for aesthetics.


7. Blackice Pro

Pros: Cheaper than thicker counterparts.
Cons: Worst performance relative to all others.

I want a good radiator because that can seriously affect the overall temps of my peltier system, but I don't want to spend a fortune. I know you recommended a few radiators, but would you recommend any on this list?






Also, is Swiftech's MCP355 the stronger 18w version?
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Unread 07-25-2006, 06:57 AM   #8
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

I'm wondering if the list were written before ThermoChills PA series? If so the Thermochill 120.2/3 at pos 1 is a HE? Because I'd never compare a PA 120.2 or .3 with a BIX! The PA rads has the lowest FPI on the market and is therefore very suitable for weaker/quieter fans while BIX rads have a very high FPI and are suitable for stronger/louder fans. ThermoChills HE series however had a higher FPI and were more like the BIX. I wonder why they didn't include Swiftech, Cooltek nor Coolingworks rads in the list? It can't be that the list is too old because the GT is in there.

I don't think it's fair to write just one list with both high and low FPI rads. With strong fans high FPI rads would rank high and low FPI rads would be at the bottom, with weak fans it would be the the other way around. Low FPI rads at the top and high FPI rads at the bottom. This is how I would rank rads, based on guesstimating, my own and others experiences and FPI. It's a very non sientific ranking so please don't quote me on it!

Weak/silent fans
  1. ThermoChills PA series (especially PA160)
  2. Coolingworks
  3. Swiftechs MCR, Cooltek (Same rads except for the barbs?)
  4. BI GT
  5. BIP
Strong/loud fans
  1. Heatercores
  2. BIX, ThermoChills HE series
  3. BI GT
  4. Swiftechs MCR, Cooltek (Same rads except for the barbs?)
  5. BIP
  6. Coolingworks
Since there's a lot of variables to consider it's very hard to do a fair ranking in a simple list, you'd need plots of how each rad peforms with different air and water flows and temps, with or w/o shroud etc. Something like BillA's Assessment of Radiator Performance, too bad that many rads didn't exist back when he did the test.

I don't think there is a Swiftech MCP355? There were some speculations that if they were to release an 18w DDC it would be named MCP355. Kinda like how they named the D5 MCP655 because the D4 were named MCP650.

EDIT: Changed my rad ranking after ricecrispi's correction.

Last edited by mx; 07-26-2006 at 03:00 AM.
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Unread 07-25-2006, 11:35 PM   #9
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Thanks once again mx!

I think I'm going go to get Thermochill PA120.2, I think a good radiator will really help with my temps. I'm going to couple that with 2x Yate Loon or Nexus fans.

Thanks for the advice on the pump, it would be really sad if I got the 10w fan.

Basically, thanks for all the great advice you've given me!


EDIT: Oh... by the way. Last question , the DangerDen store has a adaptor available for their DDC pump. Its a 3/8''ID to 1/2''ID adaptor. Will that give me the same performance as the Radiical Turbo Head?

I ask because its MUCH cheaper (only 4.50 for DD adaptor) compared to $45 shipped for Radiical's...
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Unread 07-26-2006, 12:07 AM   #10
ricecrispi
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

a triple rad would get better performance by 5 C.

Coolingworks has lowest fpi at 12 and Bill adams put his expertise into design of coolingworks rads. This is the rad i would buy if you want to go for less expensive rad

thermochill rads have the largest dimension and so should get get the best temps but coolingworks whould be very close. I think these would be best for pelt setup and if you have the $$ than spring them out for this. Triple rad cost like $10 more than dual.

swiftech has the slimmest profile, about the same with BI pro. I think would perform the worst.

=========== and for mcp 350 pump==========

the 3/8th adapters wont give the same performace.
performance-pcs.com has alphacooling liang ddc pumps with plexitop for 1/2" ID barbs that will perform the same. Plus they are in the US, in florida and not in AU like Radiical.

Last edited by ricecrispi; 07-26-2006 at 12:14 AM.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 01:40 AM   #11
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

OOO... now that you and mx both mention the coolingworks, I'll have to give the Coolingworks radiator serious thought. My biggest concern about 120.3 is space. I simply do not have enough space for that size radiator. I don't have a full-tower ATX but rather mid-ATX (My biggest regret in building my computer, BTW).

What do you think?

Thanks for the link to Performance PC's as well. Highly appreciated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry for the redundant questions, but I want to get this absolutely perfect and I'm not afraid of looking like an absoulute moron... so....

Is this pump identical to the pump DangerDen has listed?
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=4509

compared to this

https://www.dangerdenstore.com/produ...135&quantity=1.

They look absolutely identical from the technical specs the companies listed.

Also, I wish to confirm this point. Does the Performance-PC's Alphacool pump (link above) include the pump head adaptor in the price? The price is very high (Over 100) and if I had to purchase another 30 buck head it would be way over my budget.

Last point. I wish to confirm this small point, is the pumphead that Performance-PC's have, this link:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=4506

is this the same thing as the Radiical Turbo Head (I know its not the exact same, but is it the same principle)?

Last edited by michaelzhao; 07-26-2006 at 01:53 AM.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 03:18 AM   #12
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
Coolingworks has lowest fpi at 12 and Bill adams put his expertise into design of coolingworks rads. This is the rad i would buy if you want to go for less expensive rad
Seems like you're right. I once got 'corrected' when saying that CoolingWorks rads were in the same FPI regions as ThermoChill and I just accepted w/o verifying.

Why doesn't anyone use CoolingWorks then? I see a lot of ThermoChill and Swiftech but no CoolingWorks. If they could be brought in EU or if I lived in the US I'd buy one in a second just to try it since they're so darn cheap. But with the shipping costs I might as well buy a ThermoChill.



@ michaelzhao: If space and money is an issue I'd go with CoolingWorks instead of ThermoChill.

People recently buying what they hoped would be the DDC+/red impeller/18w DDCs from DangerDen got 11w red impeller DDCs. We don't really know how this new 11w version compares performance wise to the old 10w and 18w versions.

All DDC-Ultras from alphacool are the 18w version as far as I know and yes, the plexi top is included in the price (but not mounted). It's the same concept as the Radiical Turbo Head but with slightly smaller inlet and outlet channels, we don't know for certain how this affects performance so we don't know which top performs best.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 03:55 AM   #13
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Awesome.... this willl probably answer all my questions. But... who knows. You guys have been great. Both ricecrispi and mx, you two have been excellent.

This will be my updated setup:

Meanwell SE600-12
Alphacool DDC Ultra w/ 1/2'' Mod
Dangerden MAZE4-CPU
Dangerden MAZE4-GPU
Coolingworks CoolRad -22T
Dangerden T-Line
Dangerden Brass Fillport
Masterkleer 7/16'' Tubing from DangerDen Store
MCT-5 Nonconductive Solution from DangerDen Store
Conformal Coating from Danger Den Store
Dielectric Grease from Dangerden Store
228 Watt Peltier (12V, Two of them, 1 for CPU, 1 for GPU) from Danger Den Store
2x Yate Loon Fans (Undervolted at 7V)
A Relay Switch Kit

You may be wondering why I buy everything from DangerDen. Its not because I'm in love with them. Its because of this coupon code:

"PAGLAN06". 20% off everything you buy from Dangerden. You guys probably already know it, but if not, this is the very least I could do for you two fine gents. I'm very active at the DFI-Street forums (I was actually referred to here by a DFI-Street member) and they have a DangerDen rep at the same forums. They gave us the coupon code.

This coupon code is probably pretty widespread, but if not, here it is!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@mx

The Coolingworks can be bought in the EU, here is a list of authorized resellers:
http://coolingworks.com/retailer/index.html. Scroll down for EU resellers.

The best price I've seen for them is 41 USD, so about 30 euros (or maybe less... damn weak dollar).

Last edited by michaelzhao; 07-26-2006 at 04:13 AM.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 04:06 AM   #14
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Looks good to me, but here's a few questions just to be sure:
  • I don't know how powerfull the SE600 is but I suppose you've checked that it's enough for your TECs?
  • I suppose you mean MAZE4-1?
  • Maybe you should buy a slightly larger T-connection from mcmaster? (You probably won't see any temp difference from it though)
  • I wouldn't 'waste' money on MCT-5, I'd just go with distilled and some Zerex or Pentosin.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 05:02 AM   #15
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Well.. the 226 watt Peltier should draw about 280 watts of power. So 2 of them should draw around 560-580 watts of power.

MAZE4-1? I dunno, its on the Dangerden Website listed as the TEC cooler though. Comes with neoprene sealing and everything.

I probably won't buy the slightly larger T-Connection. This project has me strapped on cash an I'm really trying to save every dollar I can. The extra shipping charges I would incur wouldn't be worth it just for the T-line. I may be able to get it if Performance-PC's or Jab-Tech, Crazy PC's, or FrozenCPU carry it though. I'm buying my radiator from 1 of those 3 stores, so adding a t-line on wouldn't be any problem I'll check right now.

Oh, BTW, the fillport Danger Den has on there website has 2 options for "Fitting Style". One option is "High Flow", the other is "Perfect Seal". There is no explanation on the website for the differences between those two options. I was wondering if you knew.

Yeah.... the Zerex+Distilled should be fine. The MCT-5 is rather expensive upon my price check.

EDIT: Yes, the waterblock is the MAZE4-1... thanks...

Last edited by michaelzhao; 07-26-2006 at 05:20 AM.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 07:12 AM   #16
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelzhao
I probably won't buy the slightly larger T-Connection. This project has me strapped on cash an I'm really trying to save every dollar I can. The extra shipping charges I would incur wouldn't be worth it just for the T-line. I may be able to get it if Performance-PC's or Jab-Tech, Crazy PC's, or FrozenCPU carry it though. I'm buying my radiator from 1 of those 3 stores, so adding a t-line on wouldn't be any problem I'll check right now.
With 1/2" hoses DD's T-connection feels a bit too narrow, but with 7/16" the difference should be even smaller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelzhao
Oh, BTW, the fillport Danger Den has on there website has 2 options for "Fitting Style". One option is "High Flow", the other is "Perfect Seal". There is no explanation on the website for the differences between those two options. I was wondering if you knew.
High Flow is the ones you want, they're sharp and have a decent ID. Peftect Seal also have a decent ID but they have an extremly blunt tip which makes them more restrictive. The difference is probably very small, just like with the T-piece, but since there's no price difference go for the better one.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 08:20 AM   #17
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Thanks, every time you bring up so much good points I have no way to go but to change .

Thanks for clarifying about the fitting style.

I'm actually really excited right now because I found a cheaper reseller of the SE-600-12. The website I was looking at had it for 180. I found an Australian website for $100 USD, add $20-$30 for international shipping and still cheaper.

Which raises up, do you know of any small websites that carry Mean Well's for good prices? The website I found was computronics.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 05:58 PM   #18
mx
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelzhao
Which raises up, do you know of any small websites that carry Mean Well's for good prices? The website I found was computronics.
I planed to order a meanwell from computronics a while back for my peltier rig, but it would take like six weeks for them to get it and hence even longer for me. I found a cheap 600w 3-15V MAAS SPS-9400 PSU instead.
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Unread 07-26-2006, 07:57 PM   #19
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Nice, you know of a good reseller of that PSU?
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Unread 07-26-2006, 11:48 PM   #20
ricecrispi
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

When you had georgia institute of technology I thought georgia tech in US.
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php is in florida

If it is in europe, Georgia the country, than coolercases.co.uk is a site to look at. They are offical supplier for dangerden in UK and might take the coupon. Talk to coolmiester, by PM him here at procooling or email or call the company. other EU shops.
http://dangerden.com/e107_plugins/co...php?content.31
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Unread 07-27-2006, 12:15 AM   #21
michaelzhao
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Default Re: Final Peltier Setup, Suggestions Anyone?

Lol... it is Georgia Tech in the US. The full name is Georgia Institute of Technology. I was just afraid some people may not be familiar with Georgia Tech.
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