Thermochill PA160 in US - When?

JSimmons · 05-08-2005, 08:46 AM

Does anyone have a timeline as to when the PA160 will be available form US distributers?

Marci · 05-09-2005, 06:15 AM

A small quantity have been shipped to DangerDen iirc, so contact them to preorder out of that batch. They should be receiving them anyday now... Another batch will be on it's way to them within the next 2 weeks... either way, shouldn't be more than 4 weeks before they have stocks available if the first batch is already taken up...

JSimmons · 05-09-2005, 06:47 AM

Many thanks.

Cathar · 05-09-2005, 08:32 AM

Been playing with the PA160 radiator here which arrived early today, and have been getting some good results with it which pretty much shows that in every way it meets its design expectations or even exceeds them slightly, but I really need to cross-correlate my own results with a known quantity (i.e. measure a radiator myself that someone like Bill has and attempt to correlate/verify). Am truly doing a poor-man's version here though - no pressure testing and no actual air-flow measurements - just measuring performance with various fans attached and what I believe to be a fairly constant heat-load (110W +/- 3W or so), and measuring the delta between water-discharge and air-flow in.

With the Tricod fan on-board, which I don't have an exact PQ curve for but I would estimate it to be around a 45CFM free-air flow fan and in many respects seems quite similar to the L1A at 7V (since I have both fans and can run the L1A at 7V side-by-side with the Tricod at 12v).

Anyways, with the Tricod at 12.0v the radiator achieved a C/W of ~0.044, and with the L1A (~69CFM rated fan) at 12v, the radiator achieved a C/W of 0.031. Given that the L1A has a rated 30dBA noise level, I would say that the Tricod is perhaps ~20dBA in comparison. These were both achieved at a ~7LPM flow rate.

Would love to see the radiator tested on a more robust and accurate testbed. Wasn't Phaestus setting himself up to measure radiators?

As for the PA160's size, when I pulled it out of the box my first thought was "This isn't going to fit", but I dry-placed it in the 3 computer cases I had here and it snugly fit in the lower front of all 3, providing close to maximal use of the available lower-front space.

One thing I noticed was that it came with barbs/fittings of extraordinary length, at least a full 5cm (2") long in the barbed section, not even including the thread or spanner knurl. Needless to say I did not use the supplied barbs, but instead used some 1" barbed length fittings, and this made for a much more compact look.

Marci · 05-09-2005, 09:03 AM

Yep, we received stocks of short stumpy fittings which were superb, but on reorder they sent stupidly long fittings that I also don't particularly like... am still trying to get short ones in quantity again...

I too had the same initial worries of the size of the thing against a case, but found the same. Tried it against a GlobalWin 802, Akasa Eclipse, LianLi PC60, Chieftec Dragon - all the classic designs that most others seemed based on these days, and it fitted without issues.

Cathar · 05-09-2005, 09:24 AM

I should add that I was extremely pleased with the build quality and finish too. Easily the best finished radiator that I've handled, and the shroud is sturdy and excellent. Truly a clear step up from the common hack-jobs of reclaimed car cores (whether old OR new).

I'm really stoked about the performance that I'm seeing from it though. In every respect it allows the marriage of ultra-low noise fan use with good cooling performance, and for moderate fan noise offers what I consider to be great performance for something that can be compactly and easily be placed inside the case.

Gives me great joy to see the concept be brought to life as a reality. Thank you indeed Marci/Thermochill.

Marci · 05-09-2005, 09:35 AM

S'been a pleasure to be of service to ya d00d!

TerraMex · 05-09-2005, 10:25 AM

worth mentioning too the new shrouds.
they look very good.
http://www.thermochill.com/ps120.php

Marci · 05-09-2005, 10:41 AM

Just fabricated from the drawings I put up on overclockers.com at the beginning of the year after piles of e-mails asking if we could make and supply them... dunno why I didn't bring those out earlier!

nikhsub1 · 05-09-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marci

Just fabricated from the drawings I put up on overclockers.com at the beginning of the year after piles of e-mails asking if we could make and supply them... dunno why I didn't bring those out earlier!

Yeah I have 2 on the way... Any chance of ever seeing a single pass 120.3?

Marci · 05-09-2005, 10:55 AM

What would the justifiable gains be of having a single pass HE120.3 over it's current form?? (I'm not being sarcastic, just wondered if you could explain your particular need for it... from what we've seen of other single pass rads on the market, they appear not to be selling particularly well and bearing in mind minimum quantities for manufacture to keep the price as it stands for current HE120.3, it's a risk making up a batch that may sit and stagnate over a year... If there's a justifiable reason and necessity for a HE120.3 being made in single-pass form then it's easier for me to get it approved by the powers that be...)

Sidenote: for those interested I added production photos onto the ThermoChill site showing their fabrication in progress... see http://www.thermochill.com/plant1.php

nikhsub1 · 05-09-2005, 11:24 AM

Marci I think you underestimate how single pass rads would sell if available

I would bet my left nut that single pass 120.2's and 120.3's would outsell the dual pass version 2:1. Justifiable gains? Hmmm, a bit better flow rate and a bit better overall rad performance, as to how much is anyone's guess.

JSimmons · 05-09-2005, 11:33 AM

Size isn't a factor for me since I'll be putting this rad into a MountainMods UFO2 case.

Do I need to worry about whether I'm pushing or pulling air though this rad?

Marci · 05-09-2005, 11:40 AM

nikhsub - that wasn't the answer to the question I asked you. I've SEEN sales figures of singlepass rads vs regular rads, and the singlepass rads aren't moving. Justifiable means I need more than "hmmm, a bit better"... To get it passed management and the thousands of pounds of outlay to put into production, I need hard factual or hard theoretically confirmed info... Cathar produced all the theory etc and groundwork for the PA160, hence getting it into production wasn't a difficult task... financially, it's still a risk, but much less of a risk... If you can point me to info that would allow me to justify it to those that it needs justifying to, I can see what I can do... don't forget peoples' wages are at stake...

Pulling air thru a rad is always better, no matter what the rad, due to the nature of the fan and it's airflow profile (I think!)... so, side without shroud wants to be against a rectangular hole in front or top of case... with shroud and fan mounted on the opposite face pulling air into the case thru the core.

nikhsub1 · 05-09-2005, 11:57 AM

Marci, I was under the impression that you just need to use different tanks. Anyway, I don't have anything quantifiable, as usual. pHaestus has a single pass BI3, wonder if he has any insight on the single pass vs. dual pass of the same rad?

RaptorRaider · 05-09-2005, 12:35 PM

I don't have anything quantifiable either; yet I agree nikhsub1 about single-pass radiators.

Since Radiical has released it's single-pass radiators a lot of people seem to have been recommending those instead of the normal versions; and what some people recommend is what other people buy.
Though I must say this happend very recent and again this isn't quantifiable and certain.

JSimmons · 05-09-2005, 01:34 PM

Hmmm, I really don't want to mod the case if at all possible. How about another shroud on the "front" so that it could bolt up dirrectly to a 120mm fan opening, or even an aluminum or acrylic adapter plate?

RaptorRaider · 05-09-2005, 01:44 PM

The shroud is already on the 'front'.
Just connect the shroud to the fan and the other side of the fan to the case.

nikhsub1 · 05-09-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaptorRaider

The shroud is already on the 'front'.
Just connect the shroud to the fan and the other side of the fan to the case.

What he wants to do is have the fan 'pull'... He doesnt want to mount the bare side of the rad to the case. Another shroud is what you would need.

JSimmons · 05-09-2005, 04:07 PM

Correct-a-mundo.

Marci · 05-09-2005, 05:46 PM

Another shroud would surely pose a restriction on the whole rad, reducing it's 160mm exposed surface down to the area of a 120mm hole... again defeating the purpose of the rad...

Why make/buy a low restriction rad, just to restrict it again during the mounting? Why go for the "how it's recommended" option on the orientation and airflow direction of the fan if you're not going to go with the recommended option for the air inlet? The benefits of one will likely be negated by not going with the other...

Easier and more satisfactory solution to me which would offer the best performance in your case would be to make do with pushing air thru rather than pulling, and mount rad < shroud < fan < case.

Marci · 05-09-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Marci, I was under the impression that you just need to use different tanks.

That is the case, but again, minimum quantities to justify the workforce and keep the cost down to the same cost vs production rate of the current HE series.

Quote:

Anyway, I don't have anything quantifiable, as usual. pHaestus has a single pass BI3, wonder if he has any insight on the single pass vs. dual pass of the same rad?

A decent review showing the above with performance figures that highlight the benefits of single pass would certainly help things... but the same hurdle applies there as applies to getting the same info for a PA160 vs HE120.2...

nikhsub1 · 05-09-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marci

A decent review showing the above with performance figures that highlight the benefits of single pass would certainly help things... but the same hurdle applies there as applies to getting the same info for a PA160 vs HE120.2...

Well If you make me a single pass version and send it to me, I'll surely test it against the dual pass

MaxxxRacer · 05-09-2005, 08:33 PM

marci after im done with the current line up id be happy to do a review of it. nice comparison review between all the rads. (refering to a single pass tripple or double)..

provide some pressure drop numbers for it too.

but thinking about it from a logical standpoint i dont see why sinlge pass wouldnt outperform better. EDIT FOR REDEMPTION, but there is still the same total volume of water in the rad as a double pass at ANY given point when the system is running. and it most surely would provide some help in the flow restriction department.

Cathar · 05-09-2005, 08:45 PM

How does the water spend less time in the radiator?

05-08-2005, 08:46 AM	#1
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Thermochill PA160 in US - When? Does anyone have a timeline as to when the PA160 will be available form US distributers? __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

05-09-2005, 06:15 AM	#2
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	A small quantity have been shipped to DangerDen iirc, so contact them to preorder out of that batch. They should be receiving them anyday now... Another batch will be on it's way to them within the next 2 weeks... either way, shouldn't be more than 4 weeks before they have stocks available if the first batch is already taken up... __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk

05-09-2005, 06:47 AM	#3
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Many thanks. __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

05-09-2005, 09:03 AM	#5
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	Yep, we received stocks of short stumpy fittings which were superb, but on reorder they sent stupidly long fittings that I also don't particularly like... am still trying to get short ones in quantity again... I too had the same initial worries of the size of the thing against a case, but found the same. Tried it against a GlobalWin 802, Akasa Eclipse, LianLi PC60, Chieftec Dragon - all the classic designs that most others seemed based on these days, and it fitted without issues. __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk Last edited by Marci; 05-09-2005 at 09:08 AM.

05-09-2005, 09:35 AM	#7
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	S'been a pleasure to be of service to ya d00d! __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk

05-09-2005, 08:32 AM	#4
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Been playing with the PA160 radiator here which arrived early today, and have been getting some good results with it which pretty much shows that in every way it meets its design expectations or even exceeds them slightly, but I really need to cross-correlate my own results with a known quantity (i.e. measure a radiator myself that someone like Bill has and attempt to correlate/verify). Am truly doing a poor-man's version here though - no pressure testing and no actual air-flow measurements - just measuring performance with various fans attached and what I believe to be a fairly constant heat-load (110W +/- 3W or so), and measuring the delta between water-discharge and air-flow in. With the Tricod fan on-board, which I don't have an exact PQ curve for but I would estimate it to be around a 45CFM free-air flow fan and in many respects seems quite similar to the L1A at 7V (since I have both fans and can run the L1A at 7V side-by-side with the Tricod at 12v). Anyways, with the Tricod at 12.0v the radiator achieved a C/W of ~0.044, and with the L1A (~69CFM rated fan) at 12v, the radiator achieved a C/W of 0.031. Given that the L1A has a rated 30dBA noise level, I would say that the Tricod is perhaps ~20dBA in comparison. These were both achieved at a ~7LPM flow rate. Would love to see the radiator tested on a more robust and accurate testbed. Wasn't Phaestus setting himself up to measure radiators? As for the PA160's size, when I pulled it out of the box my first thought was "This isn't going to fit", but I dry-placed it in the 3 computer cases I had here and it snugly fit in the lower front of all 3, providing close to maximal use of the available lower-front space. One thing I noticed was that it came with barbs/fittings of extraordinary length, at least a full 5cm (2") long in the barbed section, not even including the thread or spanner knurl. Needless to say I did not use the supplied barbs, but instead used some 1" barbed length fittings, and this made for a much more compact look.

05-09-2005, 09:24 AM	#6
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	I should add that I was extremely pleased with the build quality and finish too. Easily the best finished radiator that I've handled, and the shroud is sturdy and excellent. Truly a clear step up from the common hack-jobs of reclaimed car cores (whether old OR new). I'm really stoked about the performance that I'm seeing from it though. In every respect it allows the marriage of ultra-low noise fan use with good cooling performance, and for moderate fan noise offers what I consider to be great performance for something that can be compactly and easily be placed inside the case. Gives me great joy to see the concept be brought to life as a reality. Thank you indeed Marci/Thermochill.

05-09-2005, 10:25 AM	#8
TerraMex Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portugal, Europe Posts: 870	worth mentioning too the new shrouds. they look very good. http://www.thermochill.com/ps120.php __________________ "we need more cowbell."

05-09-2005, 10:41 AM	#9
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	Just fabricated from the drawings I put up on overclockers.com at the beginning of the year after piles of e-mails asking if we could make and supply them... dunno why I didn't bring those out earlier! __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk

05-09-2005, 10:55 AM	#11
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	What would the justifiable gains be of having a single pass HE120.3 over it's current form?? (I'm not being sarcastic, just wondered if you could explain your particular need for it... from what we've seen of other single pass rads on the market, they appear not to be selling particularly well and bearing in mind minimum quantities for manufacture to keep the price as it stands for current HE120.3, it's a risk making up a batch that may sit and stagnate over a year... If there's a justifiable reason and necessity for a HE120.3 being made in single-pass form then it's easier for me to get it approved by the powers that be...) Sidenote: for those interested I added production photos onto the ThermoChill site showing their fabrication in progress... see http://www.thermochill.com/plant1.php __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk

05-09-2005, 11:24 AM	#12
nikhsub1 c00ling p00n Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: L.A. Posts: 758	Marci I think you underestimate how single pass rads would sell if available I would bet my left nut that single pass 120.2's and 120.3's would outsell the dual pass version 2:1. Justifiable gains? Hmmm, a bit better flow rate and a bit better overall rad performance, as to how much is anyone's guess. __________________ :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-: E6700 @ 3.65Ghz / P5W DH Deluxe / 2GB 667 TeamGroup / 1900XTX PC Power & Cooling Turbo 510 Deluxe Mountain Mods U2-UFO Cube Storm G5 --> MP-01 --> PA 120.3 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." 1,223,460+ Ghz Folding@Home aNonForums :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:

05-09-2005, 11:33 AM	#13
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Size isn't a factor for me since I'll be putting this rad into a MountainMods UFO2 case. Do I need to worry about whether I'm pushing or pulling air though this rad? __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

05-09-2005, 11:40 AM	#14
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	nikhsub - that wasn't the answer to the question I asked you. I've SEEN sales figures of singlepass rads vs regular rads, and the singlepass rads aren't moving. Justifiable means I need more than "hmmm, a bit better"... To get it passed management and the thousands of pounds of outlay to put into production, I need hard factual or hard theoretically confirmed info... Cathar produced all the theory etc and groundwork for the PA160, hence getting it into production wasn't a difficult task... financially, it's still a risk, but much less of a risk... If you can point me to info that would allow me to justify it to those that it needs justifying to, I can see what I can do... don't forget peoples' wages are at stake... Pulling air thru a rad is always better, no matter what the rad, due to the nature of the fan and it's airflow profile (I think!)... so, side without shroud wants to be against a rectangular hole in front or top of case... with shroud and fan mounted on the opposite face pulling air into the case thru the core. __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk

05-09-2005, 11:57 AM	#15
nikhsub1 c00ling p00n Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: L.A. Posts: 758	Marci, I was under the impression that you just need to use different tanks. Anyway, I don't have anything quantifiable, as usual. pHaestus has a single pass BI3, wonder if he has any insight on the single pass vs. dual pass of the same rad? __________________ :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-: E6700 @ 3.65Ghz / P5W DH Deluxe / 2GB 667 TeamGroup / 1900XTX PC Power & Cooling Turbo 510 Deluxe Mountain Mods U2-UFO Cube Storm G5 --> MP-01 --> PA 120.3 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." 1,223,460+ Ghz Folding@Home aNonForums :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:

05-09-2005, 12:35 PM	#16
RaptorRaider Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 70	I don't have anything quantifiable either; yet I agree nikhsub1 about single-pass radiators. Since Radiical has released it's single-pass radiators a lot of people seem to have been recommending those instead of the normal versions; and what some people recommend is what other people buy. Though I must say this happend very recent and again this isn't quantifiable and certain.

05-09-2005, 01:34 PM	#17
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Hmmm, I really don't want to mod the case if at all possible. How about another shroud on the "front" so that it could bolt up dirrectly to a 120mm fan opening, or even an aluminum or acrylic adapter plate? __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

05-09-2005, 01:44 PM	#18
RaptorRaider Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 70	The shroud is already on the 'front'. Just connect the shroud to the fan and the other side of the fan to the case.

05-09-2005, 04:07 PM	#20
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Correct-a-mundo. __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

05-09-2005, 05:46 PM	#21
Marci Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 486	Another shroud would surely pose a restriction on the whole rad, reducing it's 160mm exposed surface down to the area of a 120mm hole... again defeating the purpose of the rad... Why make/buy a low restriction rad, just to restrict it again during the mounting? Why go for the "how it's recommended" option on the orientation and airflow direction of the fan if you're not going to go with the recommended option for the air inlet? The benefits of one will likely be negated by not going with the other... Easier and more satisfactory solution to me which would offer the best performance in your case would be to make do with pushing air thru rather than pulling, and mount rad < shroud < fan < case. __________________ www.minimotosidecars.org / www.thermochill.com / www.themusiccollective.co.uk

05-09-2005, 08:33 PM	#24
MaxxxRacer Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Los Angeles, Ca Posts: 310	marci after im done with the current line up id be happy to do a review of it. nice comparison review between all the rads. (refering to a single pass tripple or double).. provide some pressure drop numbers for it too. but thinking about it from a logical standpoint i dont see why sinlge pass wouldnt outperform better. EDIT FOR REDEMPTION, but there is still the same total volume of water in the rad as a double pass at ANY given point when the system is running. and it most surely would provide some help in the flow restriction department. __________________ Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler. Last edited by MaxxxRacer; 05-09-2005 at 09:56 PM.

05-09-2005, 08:45 PM	#25
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	How does the water spend less time in the radiator?

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