and another 12V pump for Cathar

[BillA]

so here is a P-Q curve for the MCP1200
nominal output / input = 45 / 80 Watts; at 12VDC



so what is the price ?
think . . . . 3X the capability, . . . . 3X the price
for one pays for performance, given no economies of scale

note that this product is not now being offered,
as I suspect there are perhaps 4 actual purchasers lurking about

[pHaestus]

lurking has such a poor connotation!

And an MCP300? Smaller and quieter?

[BillA]

so it is better to post and be confirmed as a fool ?
not
(though it has taken many years for me to grasp this concept, application still pending unfortunately)

the MCP300 is urgently being sought, tested, rejected, and sought anew

truly lots of junk about, and for the vast majority of WCers said junk is quite fine
witness the testimonials for Rio, Via, BigBen, etc
it is clear that most will accept junk that is 'priced right'

but since I am on a different wavelength, the search continues . . . .
Laing is interesting, but the pricing discouraging (for the moment)

[Cathar]

Looks quite remarkably like the PQ curve for the Iwaki RD-30, which also has 80/45W input/output. So I gather that you managed to talk Iwaki into doing a 12V version of the RD-30 Bill?

Indeed, most pumps out there being sought/bought are total junk. After a few painful lessons I've come to accept that you truly do get what you pay for. If a pump costs $50 (or less), there's going to be some reason why.

Laing need to get a little hungrier. I was a little annoyed that their second tier price breaks started at 250 units. In the USA the price does seem discouraging. For the ROTW, $95US is a total steal. Would love to see a D5 though with ~20W power input. Still, that's just a D4 run at 15V today.

Edit: I see at the Iwaki Japan site that the RD pumps are available in 12V as well on request.

[UberBlue]

How could An Iwaki RD be cheaper than a Laing? Even with volume pricing it doesn't make sense.

On a side note. Iwaki is offering an OEM WMD series with DC motors. A 20RZ-DC or 15R-DC would be sweet. Linky

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by UberBlue

How could An Iwaki RD be cheaper than a Laing? Even with volume pricing it doesn't make sense.

Bill said 3x the cost (assuming relative to an MCP600), so that would mean ~$270US, which would be about right for an RD-30. He didn't say anything about it being cheaper than a Laing D4.

[ralf_c]

what kind of noice level is thet pump going to make? from those specs i suspect it might not be as quiet but i'm hoping it will be.

never heard about laing, are they better than iwaki?

[UberBlue]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Bill said 3x the cost (assuming relative to an MCP600), so that would mean ~$270US, which would be about right for an RD-30. He didn't say anything about it being cheaper than a Laing D4.

But he did say the price of the Laing was discouraging, and the Laing is cheaper than the RD. Perhaps the price/performance ratio of the Laing is what makes it dissapointing.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by UberBlue

But he did say the price of the Laing was discouraging, and the Laing is cheaper than the RD. Perhaps the price/performance ratio of the Laing is what makes it dissapointing.

Think about the target market. The US market is flooded full of AC pumps in the $30-70 price range.

The MCP600 is already $85. From the average buyer's perspective, about the only thing it has going for it is that it's 12VDC. From a quality perspective (initial teething problems with the thrust bearing notwithstanding) it's worth every dollar in comparison to the sub-$60 AC pumps, but that's not what people see. They just want the cheapest thing that pushes a bit of water in a semi-decent fashion.

The Laing costs $95 for 1-249 units, and $78 for 250+ direct from Laing, USA. There's an additional price-break somewhere further along but I never asked about it. It's probably far enough away to make it not worthwhile for Swiftech to buy that many up-front.

Add in shipping, having to employ people to fit 12V molex connectors, at least a 20% markup to cover Swiftech's inventory, labour, warranty and support costs, and add another 20% for the end-market reseller, and the D4 would come out to around $130US MSRP under a Swiftech badge. I'm just plucking percentage figures out of the air here.

Now how many people will buy a $130 12VDC pump when they think that a $30-45 AC pump is typically good enough for their needs?

Mind you, you could always buy the D4 for $95 each direct yourself, but shipping is via Fedex only, so expect to pay around $115 if you bought one from Laing and then you still have to fit your own molex connector.

Even if Swiftech cut prices further sold them for $120US to basically knock out the people who would otherwise buy direct from Laing, how many people will then buy a $120US pump? For what gain? 0.5-1.5C? Sure, some people will, but maybe not many hundreds.

Over in Australia and the UK/Europe, a $120-130US 12VDC pump is a relative bargain where decent AC pumps are priced from an equivalent $80-130US. Not in the USA though where the mass-market is.

Mind you, the above applies for any company, not specifically Swiftech.

[UberBlue]

I see what you are saying, but if few people will shell out for $130 pump, who's going to plunk down $270 on a pump. Like Bill said, 4.

That's why I'm confused. If the price of the Laing was discouraging, then how can the price of the way overkill RD at $270 be encouraging?

The MCP1200 may not be an RD30. The P/Q graphs are close, but not dead on.

Bah! Screw all this centrifugal nonsense, when are we gonna get a 12lpm PD pump?

[Cathar]

Bill was being facetious. Swiftech are not putting out an MCP1200, or at least not a ~$270 one. As he said, maybe all of 4 buyers. He wasn't saying that the 3x price-tag was encouraging.

PQ differences may be due to the 12V operation slightly altering the RPM of the motor. Maybe a different maker and not Iwaki. Pretty close

[BillA]

for anyone not understanding the WCing pump market forces, please read Cathar's comments until comprehension comes
- if a mfgr/reseller cannot make a nickel, it will not happen

no, it is not an Iwaki pump, same mfgr as the MCP600
and note that 'silent' and 'positive displacement' are oxymorons

[UberBlue]

- if a mfgr/reseller cannot make a nickel, it will not happen.

That's why I couldn't belive Swiftech was actually thinking about a $270 dollar pump.

But since it's a farce, makes perfect sense.

You're a tricky one Mr. Bill, with a knack for making me feel the idiot to boot.

Any thoughts on the OEM DC Iwaki WMD's?

I wonder if Iwaki realizes WMD is the acronym for weapons of mass destruction. And I was being facetious about the PD pumps

[BillA]

UberBlue
your graphs on OCers are nice
but the flow resistance curves for wbs alone are quite misleading, better if including the other 'typical' system bits
(I can give you some rad values if you are up to it)

The MCP1200 will eventually happen, but not for the enthusiast market
can you say 'cool 240 processors' ?

Iwaki pumps are truly excellent for pumping;
but not for noise, heat, or price;
in other words not a super choice for in-case WCing
so given that the WMDs are noisier, hotter, and fail sooner . . . . need I continue ?

actually there are some silent PD pumps, but not with the flow rates we seek

[UberBlue]

I did the best with the data I had. I wanted to include rad resistance curves, but I don't feel comfortable plotting with three data points.

I'll gladly take all the rad data you feel like giving me. Expecialy for the Chevette type cores (2-342, 2-226, 2-274, ect.). All that I had for those was the hc-flow-guess spreadsheet by Since87. More points the better.

Data for more water blocks to? I wish Joe @ OC'ers would provide more than one data point for pressure drop.

I'd give a testicle for an Iwaki WMD-20RZ with a 12V dc brushless motor on the back of it. That would take care of the noise, heat, and potential for failure inherent with the american motors IMO. And from the pictures, the DC motors look to be about half as long as their AC versions.

[fhorst]

I like my option bettter:

2 x MCP600...

small, silent, low wattage and able to give all the pressure/head i need
Including shipping 145 euro's.
Thats 50 euro's cheaper. (a Jhonson or iwaki md15 pump cost me 195 to 245 euro's)
And low power! (wattage) usage..

[Zogthetroll]

hey, maybe you guys could help me out here. bear with me, its on topic. as someone who is researching components for their first wc system, i'm trying to find MTBF values for some of the common pumps, ie. Danner Mag 3, Hydor L30, Eheim 1250, and of course the Swiftech MCP600. haven't had a whole lot of luck looking for this on the web. i'm fairly concerned with noise and reliability (12V would be a nice bonus) and being able to add on a gpu block later, so i'd rather have some extra power, hence the mid-range pumps. any thoughts? thanks.

[fhorst]

I've been looking also..
only i could find is the warrenty on th L20/30 and Eheim, who are rated for contious use for 2 years. = 1750 mtbf ? (sorry type error.... 17500.... thanks pHaestus )

[pHaestus]

more like 17500 fhorst: 365 days/year*2*24 hrs/day

[BillA]

the latest input on the MCP600 is a 20,000 hr MTBF value
this is NOT the maximum/actual value as the tests are ongoing with ZERO failures to date
- the pump head failures are specific to computer WCing applications and the new pump heads have been added to the test matrix

it should be noted that the Swiftech warranty period is 2 years from date of purchase
note also that a warranty period is NOT a MTBF value (which is derived from test data),
a warranty period is merely the declaired limitation of the manufacturer/reseller's liability

[nexxo]

Hey, considering what I paid for the Johnson CM30P7-1, I think the price of an MCP 600 is a bargain at any time. I'm happy with what I've got for now, but if the MCP 600 had been out at the time, I would have bought that one (still may, in the future --that aluminium housing begs to be sandblasted and polished to a chrome shine...). I would consider paying $270,-- for an MCP 1200, especially if it comes in a similar aluminium housing...

People have to realise that quality costs. You can't expect a powerful, reliable and solid pump for peanuts. I always find it surprising that people will readily pay an additional $100,-- on a graphic card for a few fps. more, or (more ludicrously) pay an additional $100,-- per strip of RAM of lower latency, even though the overall speed gain is 2%. A $200,-- pump would be real-life quality value in comparison!

[fhorst]

Well, I just received my 2 MCP600, "revision 2" and I must say: I'm Impressed! (and I'm not impressed easly)
Quality!!!!!!!
With 2 of these babies in series, "nothing"is gone kill my flow now.
I tried to kill the flow with my thumb on the hose, but I could not stop the flow.

I do have to say that tey are nowhere near silent... But I've read that this will settle in a few days.

Strange. One makes a bit a whoushy noise, the other ratling.

I've also heard that placing the pumps with the inlet poining down is the most silent setup. Is this correct?
(and of course making sure that there is no vibration)

I'm running it now in the kitchen sink, with a dual heatercore attached, to give it some back pressure.

Lateron, it will run with a D-tek heatercore, a D-tek double heatercore, a BIX, White water, DD-Zblock, GPU block and D-tek bay-res.
Hmmm it almost looks like I'm a D-tek fan

[BillA]

if you run 2 in series, expect noise

I would be interested to know if swapping the pumps around (in a system, eh) changes anything
- think you will be better off having one on either 'side' of the system

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by fhorst

I tried to kill the flow with my thumb on the hose, but I could not stop the flow.

Hmmm, 2 x MCP600's in series is ~10PSI. Applied across a ~0.2in² opening (assuming 1/2" ID hose) means about 2lbs of force required to stop the flow. I think you need to work on that thumb a bit.

Can easily stop the flow of my MD30-RZ with my thumb, and it's about 11PSI at dead head.

Can't wait to get these D4's. Will hook them up in series with the MD30-RZ, run the D4's at 15V, and see about 24PSI in total.

[fhorst]

Originally Posted by unregistered

if you run 2 in series, expect noise

I would be interested to know if swapping the pumps around (in a system, eh) changes anything
- think you will be better off having one on either 'side' of the system

Surprised you say that. So for none of my pumps have a real extra amount of noise if I place them in series.

It only places the flow to a max. On the other hand, those where all "open" impellors.
I could see a bennefit of placing them in series. (flow, presure)

What do you mean by "on either side" ? One after the res and one after the rads?
or place them in paralel?