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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-09-2004, 10:13 AM   #26
AngryAlpaca
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Yeah I see where that is headed, and I have some understanding of it, but I still do and always will take the warranty as a general indication of quality. I suppose it starts wandering when you've got such a cheap pump that it is not worth the hassle to RMA it, when it is simply easier to go out and buy a new one.

That new policy makes sense... Don't most other PC parts manufacturers require it?

I don't think the necessity for a receipt will change the failure rate, but I know it will change the return rate by a lot. Few people keep track of their receipts, even on fairly major purposes...

I'd imagine you have a MTBF number for the Mag 3's, though, as you seem to have them on everything, and I'd also imagine that you've got a good reason not to sell them (beyond the leak, I can hardly imagine a small leak thwarting Swiftech...)
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Unread 07-09-2004, 10:24 AM   #27
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better AA
ya got to start connecting the dots

"I'd imagine you have a MTBF number for the Mag 3's, though, as you seem to have them on everything, and I'd also imagine that you've got a good reason not to sell them (beyond the leak, I can hardly imagine a small leak thwarting Swiftech...)"

no, MTBF pump data is non-existant, except for the upcoming product
the Mag3 pumps used in-line sometimes leak, that is a failure, period (and they are horribly inefficient)
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Unread 07-09-2004, 10:41 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
WC can't expect to become more popular than high end air for a long, long time if ever.
Hence, the need to capitalize on the momentum.
You have to make a final push on this, (economics rationale) otherwise it will remain a niche product, or face the risk of being overrun by some new development.
Strangely enough, maybe the low cost factor will make WC endure longer than the latest design.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 10:58 AM   #29
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What all of this comes down to is mass production and demand. Once the demand for watercooling gets to a point where people with the 'big pockets' get into mass producing a WC kit. You will see the price go down and competition between manufactures will produce better performance. The top of the line performance will still cost more.

Estimate the worldwide R&D budget for watercooling versus the R&D for heatsinks. It's no wonder that heatsinks almost keep up with average WC.

On a different note, I think of heatpipe heatsinks as pumpless WC.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 12:04 PM   #30
firtol88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
...no, MTBF pump data is non-existant, except for the upcoming product...
God I really hate that cryptic shit care to elaborate?
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Unread 07-09-2004, 12:12 PM   #31
BillA
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murray13
"Estimate the worldwide R&D budget for watercooling versus the R&D for heatsinks. It's no wonder that heatsinks almost keep up with average WC."
spot on, a small pump (which will become known eventually) took $2+M and 2+ years to develop

AA
public announcement in 1 or 2 days
learn patience, do you good
lol

EDIT: jeez fritol88, sounded so much like AA that I presumed . . . . .
sorry AA
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Unread 07-09-2004, 12:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
BTW, Swiftech initiated a new RMA policy yesterday in response to being scammed by several 'customers'
-> from now on ALL RMAs will have to be accompanied by the sales reciept
How many of us have created receipts to RMA products...
I have in the past...
Some would say that is fraud...
But if you have a business you can sell something to yourself and create a receipt…
I have seen burners with 1 year warrantees get RMA’d 2 years after the purchase date that way…
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Unread 07-09-2004, 12:28 PM   #33
BillA
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jeez MH
does the identification of oneself as a cheat, then enable one to claim that they are honest ?
apparently you can obtain no self esteem from being honest, parental training deficiency (value system)

no respect from here, get lost
I've put you on my ignore list
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Unread 07-09-2004, 12:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
jeez MH
does the identification of oneself as a cheat, then enable one to claim that they are honest ?
apparently you can obtain no self esteem from being honest, parental training deficiency (value system)

no respect from here, get lost
I've put you on my ignore list
and i bet you don't try to find loop holes for your tax claims either...
get realistic...
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Unread 07-09-2004, 01:23 PM   #35
AngryAlpaca
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Wow you're an ass.

He's being honest somewhat, although it's kind of odd that he's being honest about fraud...

I'm already looking forward to this pump. I'm really excited, and I just heard about it (you aren't talking about the cooligy, are you?)
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Unread 07-09-2004, 01:39 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
He's being honest somewhat, although it's kind of odd that he's being honest about fraud...
it's not fraud... is is a loophole... I have seen stock sit on shelves for cople years before they sell... stock that has been forgotten or no demand for...
then it sells.. manufacture honors warranty...

so if you buy something and loose the reciept...
it is still under warranty... but u need a reciept to RMA the item...
then selling the item to yourself... and creating the recipt is not fraud..
the item is still in it's warranty period...

so if u buy a Swiftech product and don't have the recipt anymore...
does that mean you are nolonger entitle to warranty?
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Unread 07-09-2004, 01:56 PM   #37
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Forging a document is a loophole and not fraud? Please explain. If it sits on the shelves for years it has not been in use and as such should not be wearing the least bit.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 02:03 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
Forging a document is a loophole and not fraud? Please explain. If it sits on the shelves for years it has not been in use and as such should not be wearing the least bit.
what is a reciept... nothing more then proof of sale...
so if you sell something to yourself... be it part of your own company selling to yourself in person. you have a reciept to show proof of purchase.
that is all a reciept is...
if you were to generate a recipt stating you purchased something from another company then that would be fraud...
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Unread 07-09-2004, 02:29 PM   #39
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Slightly back on topic:


I see a big reason that "budget" watercooling pushes consumers away has more to do with the relatively large upgrade cost, and typically the lack of compatibility.

Specifically, someone buys some cheapie 1/4" or 3/8" system for 150USD. It works so-so, but its basically the same general performance as their 50USD HSF and about the same noise.

So they head to a nice site and find that they need a good 1/2" solution.

A "quick" thought is that their whole exisiting setup sucks and they can't keep any of it. The cost of entry is a bit high to get into water cooling, and its hard to know what you can keep using and what really just plain SUCKS.

Most people do not have the time nor the energy to read forums and talk to people for a few days/weeks/months before buying something. They'd rather go to a BestBuy type place and buy something off the shelf. Its hard to beat that mentality.

Maybe if we helped to facilitate a conversion - some faq for going from crap to gold, then maybe people would be more interested.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 02:57 PM   #40
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woohoo I got a 'spot on' from Bill.

2y and 2M+ doesn't really suprise me. Will need to become a big seller to make all that back! Looking forward to see it.

Last edited by murray13; 07-09-2004 at 03:13 PM. Reason: oops
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Unread 07-09-2004, 03:05 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempus
Maybe if we helped to facilitate a conversion - some faq for going from crap to gold, then maybe people would be more interested.
but to get people to read it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempus
Most people do not have the time nor the energy to read forums and talk to people for a few days/weeks/months before buying something. They'd rather go to a BestBuy type place and buy something off the shelf. Its hard to beat that mentality.
I use to be in computer sales... most of the people buying... realy don't have a clue... it is a small percentage of people that realy know what is in their computer.
if someone sais they need this.. they they get it... that is the masses we are dealing with here. it all boils down to "If it looks good in the box..." not to many people buy hardware in OEM version.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 03:29 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray13
. . . .
2y and 2M+ doesn't really suprise me. Will need to become a big seller to make all that back! Looking forward to see it.
I think the scheduled release is September, . . . .
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Unread 07-09-2004, 03:45 PM   #43
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Is it PD? Please tell me that it's PD!

Edit: I suppose that's one of the things that you can't tell until the announcement, isn't it?
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Unread 07-09-2004, 03:51 PM   #44
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Well they would probably like to sell a few MCP600s between now and September...
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Unread 07-09-2004, 03:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Well they would probably like to sell a few MCP600s between now and September...

The 600 is a nice pump I doubt this new one would really hurt sales untill it comes out, if you need a pump you need a pump and you get the best you can.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 05:19 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Well they would probably like to sell a few MCP600s between now and September...
tacky

a super nice pump we could offer, but I doubt we will; pricey
a small pump should have a lower price, no ?
so if it does not, . . . .

how many here are going to tell me that they will spend more than for a MCP600 for a pump with less than 1/2 the output ?
- just how much is a small form factor worth ? (will fit in a drive bay with a 50,000 MTBF)

and THIS is the most extreme of WCing sites !
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Unread 07-09-2004, 06:19 PM   #47
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Wait... I think I'm missing something. These pumps that have been in development for 2 years are expensive and not that powerful? Their small form factor is worth very little unless you mean a floppy bay, in which case it's worth little...

I imagine, though, that it will do very well towards the low end, such as those who use 80mm radiators (less performance, higher price, easy to fit)

Edit: I think I see what you're saying now. You had a super powerful, large, expensive pump, but decided to change it into a weak(ish), small, cheaper pump... Seems similar to the C-systems pump idea.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 07:49 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
- just how much is a small form factor worth ? (will fit in a drive bay with a 50,000 MTBF)
See, you say that, and I immediately think a small flat box, much like a half height disk-drive.

Got two barbs at the back, a molex connector. Using a turbine style impeller mechanism as this best suits the low-flat model, with a mag-drive using modified hard-disk drive motor technology spinning a magnetic armature, with the impeller sealed and effectively surrounding the motor magnet armature (ie. like the Davies-Craig EBP does it, which is like the MCP600 but reversed). Or alternately, a drive mechanism similar to the Laing D4, except with a turbine impeller instead of a centrifugal impeller attached.

Would make for an excellent high-pressure, low-power, and efficient pumping mechanism. Something that would sell like hot-cakes in the water-cooling market if enough economy of scale were brought to bear on the problem.

Could even make the whole thing serviceable, with an O-ring seal lid allowing access to the impeller assembly.
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Unread 07-09-2004, 08:45 PM   #49
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Edit: this is sort of a reply/comment to pH's post.

Hehe I own the site, and never will put water into a mission critical machine (unless the MFG has put it in there as part of their spec, and its been run through the high end QA processes by the MFG that puts anything any reviewer, and Enthusiast MFG will ever do for "over the counter" systems). I do work in the world of enterprise IT and the mentality is that fewer points of failure the better. The way I see it water cooling increases the points of failure almost exponentially from a simple HSF and fan. (which most all mission critical machines have 2 or 3 redundant fans on stand by incase one fails.)

Also the rationale is that if its mission critical, you normally can accept that it may be loud... hell servers (real servers such as Dell 6600's etc...) are louder than all hell, at the limits of OSHA work regulations. But their points of failure is so limited and with such redundancy that its a true mission critical machine.

The definition of Mission Critical takes on a different meaning based on who says it. When you work with data systems that service 2 million people... its slightly different than say your home PC.

Now on my home PC, I wont put water cooling in it, because its not needed... I got 2 HSF's 2 80mm slow fans, and slow fans all around. Its stable, fast, and quiet. and far less complex than any watercooling system. (once again to the points of failure).
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Unread 07-09-2004, 08:54 PM   #50
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quite agree with Joe
what the DIY market accepts - and even lauds - is intolerable in the 'real world'
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