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| General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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11-13-2002, 11:52 AM
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#26 |
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Pro/Guru - Uber Mod
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 834
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This is a bit of a threadjack, but somewhat relevant.
I did some pump power consumption testing last night and posted the results in a somwhat lengthy and heated thread over at oc-forums. I'd be willing to email the significant posts in that thread to any of the banned among us.  (If I'm not soon one of them.)Anyway, I'll quickly sum up here. The test I did, was to measure the power consumption of my Danner Mag5 pump with a Radian Research RD-21. I did this test with unrestricted flow and restricted flow. Unrestricted was a few feet of half inch ID tubing. Restricted was with the tubing pinched off as tight as I could with my fingers after taking multiple pictures with the tubing pinched in one hand and a crappy digital camera in the other. OMG I can hear the soapbox being dragged out...  I measured simultaneously: The voltage applied to the pump. The current through the pump. And the power consumed by the pump. I had previously measured the winding resistance of the pump at 14.1 Ohms. I got the following results. In the unrestricted case with 123 Volts connected to the pump: The current was 0.801 Amps. The power consumption was 35.3 Watts. In the restricted case with 123 Volts connected to the pump: The current was 0.757 Amps. The power consumption was 24.6 Watts. This surprised me, because I would have expected the pump to consume more power with its output restricted. (Although, I had seen hints at this with cruder testing earlier.) The pump's efficiency definitely went down with restriction due to the power consumption in the winding resistance. Unrestricted: Presistive = I^2 * R = 0.801 * 0.801 *14.1 = 9.05 Watts. R-Waste-Ratio = Presistive / Ptotal = 9.05 / 35.3 = 26% Restricted: Presistive = 8.08 Watts. R-Waste-Ratio = 33% I don't have a good explanation for the overall drop in power consumption with restriction though. Anyone know? |
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11-13-2002, 12:02 PM
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#27 |
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Responsible for 2%
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
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Interesting. It would be nice if you could start a new thread with this. I might have an answer.
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11-13-2002, 12:03 PM
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#28 |
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Cooling Savant
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: on da case
Posts: 933
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/off topic
sad to hear you been banned BillA, was it the forum for www.overclockers.com or the australian part? anyway, knowing u r hanging around in a forum, makes one think twice before posting some wildass theories (thats what it does to me). that is in fact a n00bprotectionist attitude, because someone with a big mouth will not be able to persuade n00bs into thinking some physically incorrect stuff. also cool to have myv65, and others, around for the exact same purpose. i mean, take all the knowledgable ppl out of a forum and u might as well have a fairy tale forum. /off topic |
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11-13-2002, 12:25 PM
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#29 |
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CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
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MDM
lol, no comment as it is unkind to kick the handicapped Since87 restart this as a new thread it is going to be of little interest to those sorting out components - and I am hugely involved in just this issue right NOW and that thread wow, as crappy as any I've been involved in a letter perfect example of the consequences of imprecision in terminology - and thought g.l.amour OC, OCAU seems more tolerant of letting a fool know his nature de gustibus non disputatus (sp ?) |
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11-13-2002, 12:51 PM
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#31 |
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Cooling Savant
Join Date: May 2002
Location: home
Posts: 365
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Since87,
LOLOL. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE that works with real centrifugal pumps would tell you that power goes up with flow rate. This is true despite the lower head that you get at higher flow. All ya gotta do is look at a pump curve that includes power and it'll be obvious. What I can't quite get is safemode's insistance otherwise. I don't frequent OC that often, but generally thought the guy was OK with heat transfer and thermo. Obviously pumps aren't one of the guy's strengths. Fact of the matter is that the lowest energy consumption you'll ever get is when you dead-head a centrifugal pump. The highest you'll ever see is when TDH is zero. Peak efficiency is the funky one, as it peaks at different flow values for different pumps. Rarely will it exceed 90% in the best industrial pump. Aquarium-style pumps would be hard pressed to exceed 50%. Given the setups people tend to favor, I figure most water cooling pumps are in the 30%-40% range. BillA, Sorry to hear about your recent banning. Obviously you've been out spouting lies and half-truths and got in trouble for it. 
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11-13-2002, 12:57 PM
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#32 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Moscow, ID
Posts: 1,986
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How did you get 2GPM through the rad alone? I guess I must be missing something, but that doesn't make sense to me. Please fill me in on what I'm not seeing.
__________________
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11-13-2002, 01:09 PM
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#33 |
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CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
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ok fellows, what's the deal ?
is this a thread hijacking ? myv65 ? I do wish to get right into heat balance and energy balance we going to do it here or in the new thread here ?? |
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11-13-2002, 01:15 PM
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#34 | |
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Responsible for 2%
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Join Date: May 2002
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Quote:
If you could draw both curves on the same graph, you'd find that both lines cross each other at one point. That point is 2gpm, 14 feet headloss. This assumes that there are no other restrictions, but there would be. You're going to have to keep the tubing short, straight, and very smooth. |
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11-13-2002, 01:33 PM
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#35 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Moscow, ID
Posts: 1,986
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Better idea. How about the Gen-X Mk4 pump. It runs 70W, $125, is pressure rated, and here is a chart:
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11-13-2002, 01:35 PM
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#36 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Moscow, ID
Posts: 1,986
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12 GPM @ 15ft. Will that be enough toughness for the rad? I like this better anyway since it runs on less electricity and produces less heat. I don't think it is mag-drive, though.
edit: farkin'-A, it IS mag drive!!! And it appears that the front casing is all plastic w/ 3/4" threads. Rawk.
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11-13-2002, 01:42 PM
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#37 |
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Responsible for 2%
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Join Date: May 2002
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Not bad!
Here's a link to the same pump: http://www.aquadirect.com/catalog/pumps/genx.htm Let me calculate the rad flow. brb. |
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11-13-2002, 01:47 PM
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#38 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Moscow, ID
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I'm showing 5PSI loss at 2GPM ... I have no idea how to convert that into head loss. Help me help myself, brutha-man! Howdja do that?
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11-13-2002, 01:55 PM
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#39 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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UPS just dropped off my radiator. I must say that I am in LUV! *drools*
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11-13-2002, 02:20 PM
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#40 | |
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Quote:
http://www.convert-me.com/ That pump deadheads at 21 feet (i.e. zero flow). That's almost 10 psi. Max flow is about 20 gpm. At 7 psi, the rad will accept 3 gpm. That's 4.9 meters @ 11.35 L/m, which the pump can handle, and then some. I'd estimate that you'd get around 3.3 or 3.4 gpm, with a pressure drop of about 9 psi (6.3 meter head). Still smiling? |
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11-13-2002, 02:51 PM
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#41 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
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So what I'm hearing is that, assuming I only want 2GPM through the rad (anything more is a waste), that eats 5PSI, which converts to 3.5M head loss. Add in the 2M head loss from height, and I am at 5.5M loss, or about 30LPM or 8.5 GPM. After the blocks, lines, joints, etc, I could easily achieve the 6GPM I desire, if I keep a bypass in place, if I use the Mk4 pump.
This is wery wery interesting. I like. As an added bonus, that uses less E than the last pump, putting less into the water supply, and is supposedly ultra-quiet. I'm going to do a flow test of that rad tonight. I'm going to hook up my football res and 350 GPH Supreme to the res and hose it into my puter and see what happens. I won't have any fans blowing across the rad at this point ... it'll be interesting to see where it peaks ... if necessary, I'll duct tape my 120mm fans to it.
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11-13-2002, 02:54 PM
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#42 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
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Added test: I'm going to strap the 350 GPM bugger to it in an open flow configuration (submerged pump, rad draining into a bucket) and see what flow rate I get. I know it's not scientific at all and doesn't represent a closed loop application very well, but I have a feeling I may get that 2GPM out of my little Supreme. Call it a hunch. I'll probably post the results to all this in my project page (and here for those that are to lazy to view my insanity in action).
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11-13-2002, 03:09 PM
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#43 |
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Not quite. If you target 6 GPM, then you must keep the pressure drop, or headloss to 8.5 psi, or 6 meters.
The head in the column has no relevance whatsoever. You're running a closed loop. Your column might as well be 50 feet tall, it would only increase the relative pressure: no effect on the pump (well, some additional restriction in flow, but negligeable). What you need to figure out is what the pressure drop will be across all the components, then add that to make up the total pressure drop. Then, you convert the pressure drop into head, and lookup the flow rate on the pump chart. Do try the little pump though. I estimate the flow to be in the fractions of a gpm. You could pee faster than that! Watch for leaks: 3.5M, aka 5 psi will leak through a weak joint. Teflon tape is your friend! |
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11-13-2002, 03:14 PM
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#44 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
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I hear you on the joints. I didn't use teflon tape on my current setup, and ended up having to PVC glue some of the seals of the hose barbs on my pump. Pissed me off royally. As for now, though, I don't have anything to worry about, and that rad is rated for some crazy pressure.
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11-13-2002, 03:22 PM
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#45 |
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That rad was "pressure tested to 150 psi". I don't think you have anything to worry about.
For some reason, I had the hardest time finding 3/4" teflon tape here in Houston. I had to overlap 1/2" tape, THAT pissed me off! I finally found some, last weekend. |
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11-13-2002, 03:29 PM
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#46 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Bah, just use JB Weld, it'll do it!
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11-13-2002, 03:31 PM
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#47 | |
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Quote:
This is my 22nd post today, so I'm taking a break! |
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11-13-2002, 03:33 PM
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#48 |
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Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Croatia
Posts: 969
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/off topic
sorry for interrupt, but if this would give you any comfort, this is the first time I hear that teflon tape comes in various dimensions. Here we have one-size-fits-all 10 mm tape.  again, I learned something! /end Cheers!
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11-13-2002, 03:38 PM
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#49 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
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JB Weld isn't permanent! If you need to make a change, just throw the old stuff away and get new stuff. See? Not so permanent after all! Nooge!
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11-13-2002, 08:48 PM
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#50 | |
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Cooling Savant
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Rockledge,FL,US
Posts: 731
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Quote:
you're brain is too big and your test equipment is too elite
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My old and retired watercooling setup. Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600 Also Retired - Watercooling an XP1800@1782MHz |
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