"Mass-market budget water-cooling" - Is it driving users away from water-cooling?

[Cathar]

This is an opinion that I read in a local paper magazine here in Australia.

Basically the supposition is that the mass-marketing of water-cooling amongst the well-known budget companies is actually doing more harm than good for the state of the water-cooling market.

With the availability of pre-packaged kits priced in the US$150-200 range that offer marginal, if any, performance or noise gains with respect to top-end air-cooling, the article argues that as the "masses" pick up this sort of stuff, they're left totally non-plussed and unconvinced about the whole water-cooling thing, and many are being disillusioned and telling their friends not to even bother.

When I look over at FutureMark or OC.com forums, I do see an increasing number of threads arguing that water-cooling simply isn't worth it, more often than not, citing the mediocre performance of various budget kits that some user has had an experience with, and from then on its basically a lost cause.

That air-cooling solutions have gotten better in the last two years there can be no doubt, but so has water-cooling. However, with the abandonment of the more basic water-cooling setups of two years ago, this has caused the budget water-cooling makers to step in and attempt to sell what are now uncompetitive solutions in comparison to air, driving the masses away.

Too often, so the article argues, we've seen pre-packaged or budget solutions that use too-weak low-quality low-lifetime pumps, budget tubing that ages badly, too-small or inefficient radiators that require screaming fans to offer any form of adequate cooling, with waterblock technology from the relative stone-ages of water-cooling, all mixed together and packaged nicely, but ultimately doing little better than what can be achieved with a heat-pipe heatsink and a medium-speed fan (and usually less noise for the HSF solution).

So what are your thoughts? Much like when buying tools, clothes, or various other items, there's "moderately priced and quality" which people overlook because of the higher price-tag, and then there's "cheap and nasty" but packaged nicely, which is what more people end up buying and experiencing. Has water-cooling's sales pitch towards the wider mass-market been poorly handled and represented by the budget kits? Given these difficulties, can water-cooling ever be cheap and quality?

[BillA]

preaching to the choir again Cathar ?
lol

yes, ya ain't seen nothing yet
try a fairly good kit for $100 ! ($50 ex works !!)
I think JoeC is going to put it up as a review, then I'll put up a direct link

we are wittnessing the evolution of a technology/market
gone are the days when intuition was a sufficient basis for design, when articles could be made one at a time, and when marketing by 'freebie reviewers' was sufficient to sell product

new times, new tatics - but the problem is resources and lead/response time
very difficult to compete with deep pockets on a shoe string

[AngryAlpaca]

I don't agree that it's driving people away from water cooling in general. What drives people away from water cooling in general, though, is a poorly set up custom that they were told would be top of the line. The enthusiasts who screw up and don't give it a second chance are leaving, not those who buy kits (at EOCF, anyway) I see tonnes of threads where people are saying something along the lines of, "Wow, you guys were right. This kit sucks hard. What should I buy to replace it?"

all mixed together and packaged nicely, but ultimately doing little better than what can be achieved with a heat-pipe heatsink and a medium-speed fan (and usually less noise for the HSF solution).

Better? Where? I haven't seen these.

Given these difficulties, can water-cooling ever be cheap and quality?

Hell yes. It just isn't. Aircooling companies are usually more worried with price than performance, and I find that their stuff is usually much lower than stuff from a specialist company, with performance reflecting that price. The MCW600X has proven that quality can be found with a low price tag, the Mag 3 in addition has been high powered, long life performance at a very low cost for years, and the heater core is the same as the Mag 3 in that respect. Your new block is a step in the right direction, I think, and I'd imagine that someone will take that concept even further.

Originally Posted by unregistered

($50 ex works !!)

What does that mean?

[firtol88]

It will only get worse. Heatsinks like the Thermalright xp-120 sure won't help matters, as ricockulous as that thing may be it will likely slaughter most budget "water cooling" kits.

[BillA]

ex works = FOB plant (China in this case)

AA
using the Mag 3 is a piss-poor example, note that Cathar said quality
a post facto application of goop is not 'quality'

[AngryAlpaca]

firtol, check the test of the XP 120. It doesn't stand up to top end water with the same fan.

He seemed to be talking about performance, really. Also, I'd consider a 3 year warranty "quality" regardless of the minor leak. Unfortunately, though, it isn't the greatest pump (speaking of noise) when not submerged, but when submerged, the leak doesn't really make a difference.

[BillA]

no AA
the warranty is an economic calculation by the mfgr
and a leak is not quality

[AngryAlpaca]

the warranty is an economic calculation by the mfgr

An economic calculation that indicates that their pump will likely run over 3 years without an issue...

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

firtol, check the test of the XP 120. It doesn't stand up to top end water with the same fan.

He seemed to be talking about performance, really. Also, I'd consider a 3 year warranty "quality" regardless of the minor leak. Unfortunately, though, it isn't the greatest pump (speaking of noise) when not submerged, but when submerged, the leak doesn't really make a difference.

Who's talking about "Top end water" I was under the impression we were on about budget WC kits... I'm fairly confident that heatsink would do better than some "midrange" WC kits.

[AngryAlpaca]

Oh hell yeah. 92mm heatsinks do better than midrange ones, with high powered fans. I still don't consider the XP 120 a threat to WC companies (excepting koolance) but to aircooling companies that are trying to expand into this market.

[bigben2k]

The kit doesn't have to be a top performer, it just needs to perform, for WC to pick up.

Too often, so the article argues, we've seen pre-packaged or budget solutions that use too-weak low-quality low-lifetime pumps, budget tubing that ages badly, too-small or inefficient radiators that require screaming fans to offer any form of adequate cooling, with waterblock technology from the relative stone-ages of water-cooling, all mixed together and packaged nicely, but ultimately doing little better than what can be achieved with a heat-pipe heatsink and a medium-speed fan (and usually less noise for the HSF solution).

and that's the core of the issue.

The WC market suffers from a perception that water and electricity don't mix. Anything, and by that I mean, any WC product that functions, will help alleviate that fear. Taken to an extreme, people will electrocute themselves, trying to apply the same principles outside of a PC... but we're not there yet.

Seriously though, bad products do hurt the industry, and I don't think that there's any doubt about that. However, it still comes down to making a well advised purchase, and that's really not that hard to do, given the amount of information available on the net. (so yes, bad reviews hurt too).

[BalefireX]

I think the Thermalright XP120 and Zalman CNPS7700-Cu are real competition for mass market budget water cooling, and I don't think that is a bad thing. Top end WB makers aren't going to be hurt by them, but the people who are currently paying $100 for cruddy watercooling will be able to get the same temperatures and less noise from a $50 heatsink + 120mm fan. Two things can come of this, both of which seem like good things to me: 1) Companies that make watercooling kits that aren't better than 120mm fan HSFs have to drop out of the market or 2) they improve their products to compete.

[pHaestus]

Does anyone here put water cooling in their parents' PCs (iif they build them) or in their mission critical work machine (maybe Bill does)? Until that day comes I see water cooling as still niche personally

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Does anyone here put water cooling in their parents' PCs (iif they build them) or in their mission critical work machine (maybe Bill does)? Until that day comes I see water cooling as still niche personally

Hmmm, my mission critical work machine is water-cooled. The biggest issue I found was what pump to trust to do the job. Ultimately it came down to the MCP600. It doesn't leak. It's quiet and reliable. The system could handle the radiator fan failing, but it couldn't handle the pump failing (short of then relying for the motherboard shutting the CPU down due to thermal overload).

Pumps, being mechanical items that drive the whole water-cooling loop, is something that absolutely, utterly, cannot have sacrifices in quality, but that's something that we see all the time with these budget kits.

I would not hesitate to setup a water-cooling loop in my parent's PC if they were willing to pay for the quality parts that I would insist go into it.

Aluminium with copper is another of my pet hates.

So are clear plastics. I'll never make blocks with clear plastics again. They are all just too brittle.

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Does anyone here put water cooling in their parents' PCs (iif they build them) or in their mission critical work machine (maybe Bill does)? Until that day comes I see water cooling as still niche personally

That is exactly why I drew the corrolation between a "neat, small, quiet, and compact" system which performs well and a wet deam.

I'm still really thinking about using a Swiftech 22600 system on an internal server at my office (we mostly run UT2k4 on it, keeps us and any hired guns sane). I think I can fit it in a 1U without too much hacking and drilling. Honestly it's more mission critical than than any of the other shared systems.

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by Cathar

Hmmm, my mission critical work machine is water-cooled. The biggest issue I found was what pump to trust to do the job. Ultimately it came down to the MCP600. It doesn't leak. It's quiet and reliable. The system could handle the radiator fan failing, but it couldn't handle the pump failing (short of then relying for the motherboard shutting the CPU down due to thermal overload).

Pumps, being mechanical items that drive the whole water-cooling loop, is something that absolutely, utterly, cannot have sacrifices in quality, but that's something that we see all the time with these budget kits.

I would not hesitate to setup a water-cooling loop in my parent's PC if they were willing to pay for the quality parts that I would insist go into it.

Aluminium with copper is another of my pet hates.

So are clear plastics. I'll never make blocks with clear plastics again. They are all just too brittle.

I agree, the pump must work or there is really no point. Ultimately, a great radiator and pump with a bad waterblock will not just turn in better temps, but a better and more reliable experience overall than a Cascade SS with a crap radiator, and cheese pump.


BTW, speaking of China BillA, I was wondering, where is the new MCW600x series of waterblocks made? There is no "USA" icon on the web page at Swiftnets.com. I am curious.

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by Cathar

...I would not hesitate to setup a water-cooling loop in my parent's PC if they were willing to pay for the quality parts that I would insist go into it...

Now that is something I would find interesting, what components would everyone use for a family member or business machine. Clicky if ya wanna play (no need to hijack this thread)

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Does anyone here put water cooling in their parents' PCs (iif they build them) or in their mission critical work machine (maybe Bill does)? Until that day comes I see water cooling as still niche personally

If I built either of those I would water cool them, as it is, I refuse to build my parents a computer because I don't want to have to play tech support for them. And my work machine is provided by my employer.

[Jag]

It seems that we're allways coming back to the starting point, and to this doubt: is WC comercially viable as a standard solution?
It depends (as a user/consumer/responsible for the organization) where do you want to go.
Right now there's too much hype around this issue, and the fact that big PC brands join the flow isn't too good. They're just riding the wave.

As for outdated concepts being sold, hell, car and electric appliances manufacturers do the same, often creating sub-brands.

The thing is ROI.
If I have an organization with 50~100 pc's and decide to go for WC I need MTBF and also to know the return of my investment in 3 years time, because I won't change the WC setup once in a year. Does that exist today?

Maybe Cathar has something to be affraid of, if the price tag of his new block is high, because as he mentioned it once, lot's of talk, but the cash register doesn't reflect it.
So, WC will suffer from "foster scale" and "value" ans perhaps inovation.

[AngryAlpaca]

To the question of whether or not I'd watercool my parents PC or my work PC (assuming I'm not rendering or video editing or whatnot) no I would not. I see no return from it. Rather I'd get an ALX 800 and a very quiet fan, as the PC can be in the 50's for all I care. That's only about 30 bucks and for most people it is as good as watercooling, as they do not need the performance. The question is, are overclockers switching? WC can't expect to become more popular than high end air for a long, long time if ever.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Jag

Maybe Cathar has something to be affraid of, if the price tag of his new block is high, because as he mentioned it once, lot's of talk, but the cash register doesn't reflect it.

Given that I make more after-tax every week in my real job, than I've ever made on waterblocks in two years, I really couldn't care any less about my personal monetary involvement in the wb marketplace.

It was a rhetorical question. Nothing more, nothing less.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

An economic calculation that indicates that their pump will likely run over 3 years without an issue...

no
it indicates that the mfgr believes that the cost of the warranty is tolerable
says nothing at all about failure rates

do you have experience in this area AA ?
if so, cite it
if not, pipe down

EDIT:
I would add AA that you have been suckered just as the mfgr intended, you automatically equated "Quality" with the warranty period

[AngryAlpaca]

Well then I'm a sucker I guess. I'm paying $35 and I get a free repair if it breaks in 3 years and I can get 6 years under warranty for less than the price of an MCP600. I haven't heard of any failures with this pump so I'm guessing that that equation is fairly accurate... The shipping on the pump that they'd have to pay is pretty high relative to the cost of the pump so I don't think that a three year warranty would be viable if the pump is likely to break down before that.

[BillA]

yup, letter perfect consumer response

you seem unaware of any warranty cost calculation methods
the failure rate increases over time, but the % actually returned also decreases over time
see where this is headed ?

BTW, Swiftech initiated a new RMA policy yesterday in response to being scammed by several 'customers'
-> from now on ALL RMAs will have to be accompanied by the sales reciept

will the necessity for a reciept affect the failure rate ?
or the return rate ?
this is an economic issue AA, head for business school if this stuff is to your liking

[RedViper]

There are now, and always will be people who adopt some form of technology, find it not to their liking, and become evangelists against it. View it like the ex-smoker syndrome. This is human nature, and it isn't going to change. On the positive side, as long as there are water-cooling people who know their stuff and don't mind helping and encouraging new people, there will be new technology, and people to buy it.

The biggest boost we can give ourselves is to allow the market to diversify, and gladly except the fact that there are myriad, valid reasons for water. Not everyone wants to make their own blocks, clock their rigs to high-heaven, convert refrigerators into reservoirs, or pour over reams of esoteric technical data about the thermal properties of water. These are the type of people who have the most potential for driving water, in some form or another, into the mainstream. When/if that happens, we'll find ourselves "soaked" in new, wide-ranging products. I don't see the downside in that.

There will always be room for propeller heads though, no problem there.