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Unread 11-21-2005, 11:32 AM   #1
Revivalist
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Default New pelt setup underway! **Pics Inside**

Ok, I got everything I need for a new pelt setup. Now it's time to start operating.



The setup includes the following...

Maze4-1 CPU waterblock: (dangerden)
320W (50mmx50mm) Peltier: (15V max, 26A max, potted) (ebay)
Meanwell 480-15: (480W, 13.5-18V, 35A)(trcelectronics)
Power relay: (bestbyteinc)
Full Insulation Kit for Maze4-1: (includes neoprene pads, conformal coating, and thermal grease) (dangerden)
5.25” bay triple fan cooler: for cooling the Meanwell power supply (ebay)
Power chord, 12 gauge wire, connectors, & rubber stand-offs: Lowe's hardware

I'll keep posting more pics as progress comes along. . . .

The only thing I'm sorta of wondering about right now is how to know the amount of torque to use when screwing the cold plate onto the block with the pelt in between. I read that there should be 200-300 lbs per square inch. But I can't find a torque wrench that will fit the holes of the Maze4. Also, how would I compare the amount of torque from a torque wrench to the lbs per square inch on the cold plate? (Just add up the torque on each screw and divide by the area of the plate?)
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Unread 11-21-2005, 05:07 PM   #2
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Torque is not easily translatable into PSI, since the thread material, lubrication, and bolt placement all affect the PSI number independently of the applied torque.

To be honest, I'm curious about the answer to this one as well, but I don't think there IS an easy answer.

For your case, DangerDen might have gotten a good number to use. I suggest calling them.
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Unread 11-22-2005, 02:33 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brians256
Torque is not easily translatable into PSI, since the thread material, lubrication, and bolt placement all affect the PSI number independently of the applied torque.

To be honest, I'm curious about the answer to this one as well, but I don't think there IS an easy answer.

For your case, DangerDen might have gotten a good number to use. I suggest calling them.
Thanks for the reply.

Ok, so it sounds like trying to acheive a specific pressure is hard to do. Some folks at OC forums suggested that I just tighten it as much as I possibly can. Here's what I got for frosty pics so far . . .



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Unread 11-22-2005, 10:11 PM   #4
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One very easy way to get a repeatable force is to use known springs and then measure the area inside the bolt holes (e.g. width times height if 4 bolt holes in a rectangular pattern).

With springs, the manufacturer can give you the number of pounds that will be exerted when at X amount of compression. So, you pick the equal springs that (when compressed to the same amount) will give you the PSI you need for your given area.

When you tighten as much as possible, I worry about threads stripping and TEC crushing (if you don't use a alternating pattern of tightening). Good luck!

Nice frost.
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Unread 11-24-2005, 04:39 PM   #5
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Well, here are the results so far. I hit -7C idle! Here's some pics . . .

Testing the setup . . .




Running steady at -7C idle.

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Unread 11-24-2005, 04:42 PM   #6
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ohh you have 1 of thows baby res's what do you think of it? im thinking of geting 1
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Unread 11-25-2005, 10:04 AM   #7
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Yeah, wtf is that res?
I've actually never used a res, although I'm thinking of getting one of those jobs that sit right on the pump inlet.
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Unread 11-25-2005, 10:09 AM   #8
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its a swiftech item but i have yet to find a review
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Unread 11-25-2005, 12:43 PM   #9
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lets see how high your OC is with and w/o the tec!
just to see if it was worth the 150-200$
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Unread 11-25-2005, 01:57 PM   #10
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Expect as per usual... 100 to 200Mhz over straight water on CPU. 50 to 125Mhz over straight water on GPU (dependant on additional voltmods usually).
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Unread 11-25-2005, 06:23 PM   #11
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@ flatline & mikoto - I think the res is great. I never have to worry about bleeding the system. It just does it on it's own. I also like the way it looks. . . .

Ok, so I'm up and running in Windows, and Motherboard Monitor reads the following:

-9C at idle (underclocked to 1.06GHz and undervolted to 1.07V)

28C at full load for 20 min (overclocked to 2.60GHz and overvolted to 1.70V)

Here's a screenshot at idle . . .



I was surprised about a few things . . .

1. The CPU is coldest when the Meanwell power supply is set to 12.3V (which is the minimum for the Meanwell) rather than 15V which is the maximum (for the pelt). I thought that the more power I sent to the peltier, the cooler it would make the CPU. (I'm wondering if giving it even less than 12.3V would be better but I can't know since that's the lowest this Meanwell goes.)

2. I couldn't get higher than 2.65GHz which I could already do just on water (although temps would get up to 45C). I even tried up to 1.8V Vcore (the max this board will do) but it still didn't pass stabiliy tests. I think the problem is that it's still hitting 28C at load. Does this mean I have to have a better way of cooling the water block? Would a dual heatercore do the trick?
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Cooling: Maze4-1 CPU block with 245/320 TEC, chrome Maze4 GPU block, BIX III, MCP655 pump, 1/2" tubing
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Unread 11-25-2005, 07:27 PM   #12
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A few more pics, just for fun . . .


The side -- I put the Meanwell at the very top there.



The back -- I bore out holes for the Meanwell fans. Not the cleanest holes but they'll do the job.



The front -- I installed the 5.25" bay intake fans to help keep the Meanwell cool behind them.



The inside -- I took the UV acrylic plate from my old Storm and put it over the Maze 4-1. (I was stoked that it actually fit!)



UV Action



A little more UV
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2x80GB Hitachi RAID 0 on VIA --- Aspire 500W & Vigor 400W dual power supplies
Cooling: Maze4-1 CPU block with 245/320 TEC, chrome Maze4 GPU block, BIX III, MCP655 pump, 1/2" tubing
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Unread 11-25-2005, 11:26 PM   #13
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Ok, I discovered that I was actually running my Vcore too high. . . .

When I lowered it to 1.7V, I was able to run 2.7GHz and pass occt. So I'm doing about 500MHz over what I could do only on water. Not bad, I guess.
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2x80GB Hitachi RAID 0 on VIA --- Aspire 500W & Vigor 400W dual power supplies
Cooling: Maze4-1 CPU block with 245/320 TEC, chrome Maze4 GPU block, BIX III, MCP655 pump, 1/2" tubing
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Unread 11-26-2005, 04:13 AM   #14
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That $40 aspire psu you are using might be holding back overclocks. Not the best psu for OCing.

I still don't understand why he got better temps at 12.3 V?
Anyone explain?
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Unread 11-26-2005, 08:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
I still don't understand why he got better temps at 12.3 V?
Anyone explain?
TEC's have an efficiency sweet spot, usually around 70~80% of their Vmax. The higher the applied voltage, the more heat is generated by the TEC itself, with only a minimal increase in heat pumping capacity. The added heat dumped into the WC system usually offsets any theoretical gains of running at a higher voltage.
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Unread 11-26-2005, 06:15 PM   #16
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Thanks for the simple answer Robotech.

EDIT: Makes perfect sense as Vmax of the 320W pelt is 15.4 Vand 15.4V x.8= 12.3!!!!

Such an important but simple fact but i hardly ever seen it posted on a pelt FAQ section. Makes choosing pelts easier

Last edited by ricecrispi; 11-26-2005 at 06:31 PM.
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Unread 11-26-2005, 06:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
Thanks for the simple answer Robotech.

Such an important but simple fact but i hardly ever seen it posted on a pelt FAQ section.
Yes, you're absolutely right. In fact, I wouldn't have gotten the Meanwell 480-15 which is rated at 15V if I had known that. I would have gotten the 480-12. The lowest I can go on this one is 12.3V and that's when I get my best temps. So if I had a 480-12, I could go even lower and probably get even better temps. Oh well. You live and learn.
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Cooling: Maze4-1 CPU block with 245/320 TEC, chrome Maze4 GPU block, BIX III, MCP655 pump, 1/2" tubing
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Unread 11-27-2005, 01:37 AM   #18
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You could probably run a resistor or variably resistor in series with the Pelt to drop the voltage even more if you wanted to experiment with that.
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Unread 11-27-2005, 03:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albigger
You could probably run a resistor or variably resistor in series with the Pelt to drop the voltage even more if you wanted to experiment with that.
That's a great idea. I'm actually working on it right now. . . The only problem is that according to my calculations that would require a variable resistor that I can be tuned between 0 ohms and 0.22ohms, and it has to be able to take up to 50W. So far I only found this one and this one, but they're about $30! That's just not realistic for a single rheostat for testing.
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Cooling: Maze4-1 CPU block with 245/320 TEC, chrome Maze4 GPU block, BIX III, MCP655 pump, 1/2" tubing
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Unread 11-27-2005, 03:46 AM   #20
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Well, maybe some EE guy can help more with that, but a search for your model number pelt turned up a few interesting threads, I only skimmed but in the OC one it is suggested that ~7 volts may be the peak efficiency for thermochill enterprises pelts?

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=373496

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?p=944104
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Unread 11-27-2005, 04:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albigger
Well, maybe some EE guy can help more with that, but a search for your model number pelt turned up a few interesting threads, I only skimmed but in the OC one it is suggested that ~7 volts may be the peak efficiency for thermochill enterprises pelts?

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=373496

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?p=944104
Thank you very much for those links. That was very helpful. Now I'm all the more motivated to try testing this pelt with a lower voltage.
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Cooling: Maze4-1 CPU block with 245/320 TEC, chrome Maze4 GPU block, BIX III, MCP655 pump, 1/2" tubing
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Unread 11-27-2005, 03:58 PM   #22
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Again I rather trust what robotech said.


Real info for 320 watt pelt
26 Imax 15.4V max 243.5wattage pull
Vmax of that 320 watt pelt is 15.4 V x 70-80%effieciency = 10.78-12.32 V

EDIT: I have the charts for a few months and found a link how to read the charts
http://www.overclockers.com/tips40/
Verifies the calulations and what robotech said

Example of people not understanding something and pointing out wrong info.
1) 7V or 9V is not going to get the best temps.
2) That chart for undervolting is slightly off.

I been looking at that undervolting chart for a few months already and going on forums foraging info on pelt cooling that is second rate because of people who point out wrong info or have gaps in their knowledge and can't explain stuff simply like robotech did.
I got a 226 watt pelt and 13.5 V psu to match that chart. Too bad I didn't read any info on the 70%-80% eff.

I pmed LS7 yesterday for more info on his undervolting pelts and I've read that thread from the start. Asking for a more comprhensive explanation.

Last edited by ricecrispi; 11-27-2005 at 04:22 PM.
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Unread 11-27-2005, 04:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
Again I rather trust what robotech said.

Real info for 320 watt pelt
26 Imax 15.4V max 243.5wattage pull
Vmax of that 320 watt pelt is 15.4 V x 70-80%effieciency = 10.78-12.32 V

Example of people not understanding something and pointing out wrong info.
1) 7V is not going to get the best temps.
2) That chart for undervolting is slightly off.

EDIT: I have the charts for a few months and found a link how to read the charts
http://www.overclockers.com/tips40/
Verifies the calulations and what robotech said

I got a 226 watt pelt and 13.5 V psu to match that chart. Too bad I didn't read any info on the 70%-80% eff.

I been looking at that undervolting chart for a few months already and going on forums foraging info on pelt cooling that is second rate because of people who point out wrong info or have gaps in their knowledge and can't explain stuff simply like robotech did.

I pmed LS7 yesterday for more info on his undervolting pelts and I've read that thread from the start. Asking for a more comprhensive explanation.
Amem. The CP1-12726 has a 243.5w Qcmax when powered at a Vmax of 15.4V as stated in Thermal Enterprises own documentation.

If the undervoltage chart is suppose to reflect CP1-12726 data, it is totally in error.
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Unread 11-27-2005, 04:53 PM   #24
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I already sent the tables to bloody sorcerer. I'm not sure if he's changed it yet but tweaking is required. Those numbers come from Noob of Leet from "real-world" recorded numbers so they actually might be accurate but don't account for variation. NoL who has tons of good info on pelts but I feel those numbers are off if thermal enterprise says 15.4 Vmax


http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...highlight=pelt

Quote by ls7
"Just thought you guys would be interested in a setop with a pump. My friend(RC64 on ocforums) was "inspired" by my setup and put this together.

DD maze4
320w @5v
csp mag
BIP w/M1A @7v shrouded
Prime temps:23c
Burnk7: 28-29
Venice core 3000+ running at 2700 1.55v"

original article but has no pump
http://www.overclockers.com/tips1211/

Last edited by ricecrispi; 11-27-2005 at 05:05 PM.
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Unread 11-27-2005, 04:57 PM   #25
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No guarantees about the 70~80%… that’s just a typical value (but one I have verified during my own tinkering)

A nother huge variable that is sometimes overlooked is the water-cooling system. You can't expect a WC system that was designed for a single CPU application to work effectively with a TEC setup. To work well, it will need to be up-sized ~4X (CPU heat + TEC heat). A TEC creates a dT from one side to the other. The cooler you can keep the hot side, the cooler the cold side will run (other things being equal). So to get the most out of a TEC setup will require a very good (big radiator(s), multiple fans, lots of flow, etc) WC system (and low ambient temps don't hurt).

Edit: I also agree with what was just posted refrencing ls7's work... (for those, who think this sounds contradictory). Just to clarify: many ways to approach the task. (1) for max performance will require uber cooling system and finding the TEC's sweet spot, but (2) a very effective and much more efficient system can be made by undervolting the TEC, which will generate much less waste heat and won't require an ultimate water-cooling system. Just depends what your end goal is and how far you want to push things IMHO...

Last edited by RoboTech; 11-27-2005 at 05:07 PM.
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