Apogee from Swiftech...

[BillA]

great stuff Stew, my wife was most impressed (ok me too @230k)

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by unregistered

great stuff Stew, my wife was most impressed (ok me too @230k)

That wasn't me on that bike (that was a GSX-R1000, mine is an R1), but it's the same sort of idea, except I don't pull standing wheelies.

[flatline]

sounds nice shame about the mic 14 thow rpm?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by flatline

sounds nice shame about the mic 14 thow rpm?

Indeed. ~175hp or so from a 999cc naturally aspirated in-line 4cyl engine.

The upcoming 2006 R6's rev out to 17500rpm, as witnessed on this flash/animation sound-byte of a dyno run.. 127hp & 600cc.

Sorry for the short interlude while I dream of things more pleasant than this thread.

[flatline]

i prefer the sound of the 1st the other on rolling road sounds a little 2 cleen not a husky roar like the 1st thow this may be cos its not under full load (air drag rider grip on road and so on) or may just be desine

[Orkan]

I can relate. my gixxer is about to start crying... as winter is setting in up here in the midwest... and she must be parked till spring.

[bigben2k]

To clarify for the popcorn munchers... (I'll play the "roadside commentator", as Cathar zooms by )

While testing, a raw core-side temperature measurement will be taken.

One of the points brought up is that the TIM joint under the AMD and Intel IHS may vary in quality, over time. The result is that it becomes more difficult to apply an offset (to the raw core-side measurement), and predict what actual temperature an AMD CPU would report. It also makes using an actual AMD / Intel processor as a testing platform a bit more complicated.

Cathar's objection, as I understand it, is not that the TTV's TIM joint under the IHS may be variable, but that it is not checked for a variation. Bill's reply; it's just a (repeatable) heat source.

Orkan; we test at fixed power levels, usually on the high end (70 to 100 W). Cooling solutions perform less at different power levels. Accuracy and repeatability are prime; we're shooting high here.

Annirak; secondary losses exist, and they are very hard to quantify. Intel has parameters for the testing environment.


Otherwise the issue of having a die simulator whose size is different than an actual processor, remains. We did however agree on 10mm by 10mm and 14mm by 14 (in another thread) as it covers most processors. We can revisit yearly, that's fine, but must start somewhere (I'm so far behind!!!).

I'm all for the proposed mushroom cap; seems fine, just because the Intel TTV is hard to get (?). Can we agree on 1.4mm as IHS thickness? Can we get together on one mushroom cap? Can we still have a TIM joint of some sort? (Raw copper stock in 36mm by 36mm is not obvious, but 36mm by 1.4mm bar stock is easy) (let the popcorn flow!)

Bill's point remains: -> how is the die face to be maintained ?
Can we do nickel plating?

I am excited about the thermocouple solution, but fear the cost of EDM'ing anything to .3mm .

5 TCs in the IHS? Wouldn't be more reliable to have 5 IHS with one TC in each quadrant, then center? Either way, it would be for additional study, no direct relation to cooler testing, right?

[Marci]

Me looks down at his endcan-less bike... not goin' nowhere at the mo *snif*

*reaches for the MiG* Can't be having a winter without the 2 stroke... s'just not right...

[billbartuska]

Originally Posted by unregistered

no it is improper to characterize all CPU/IHS TIM joints as being intrinsically variable to a huge extent
that some may degrade so over time and use has nothing to do with testing (don't use old shit)
that some may be inconsistantally mfgd is another separate issue (don't buy cheap shit)

For what it's worth.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...p/t-59068.html
Quote:
jess1313
08-16-2004, 03:40 PM
I had removed My IHS, but I couldnt get good contact with it off.
After this I put it back on with AS5 & gain 150mhz clock with 22c lower on idle.
This sounds like alot but I can clock way higher with less voltage now.
Mine was not making good contact with the IHS, there was a big bubble in the center of the factory clue.
Well worth it. I am on air BTW.

[pHaestus]

wow still the same thing again about the ttv?

Am I hearing from Bill that using the Intel CPU would be preferable to an AMD one for my test bed? Because the limitations of the intel platform are pretty large ones: 1C resolution, complete reliance on the motherboard temp monitoring, and no access to the "hot" diode only the cooler diagnostic one.

I would think ditching the IHS (or popping it and reaffixing it somehow?) on an AMD processor would still be preferable to the above problems?

[BillA]

which is what Marci was saying re AMD
- strange that he would put the IHS back on, interesting #s

anyone seeing such with 775 pkgs ? (yea, how would one know ?)

[Orkan]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I would think ditching the IHS (or popping it and reaffixing it somehow?) on an AMD processor would still be preferable to the above problems?

I don't see how that will reflect a real-world situation... as we have established most people will keep their IHS on.

[pHaestus]

Well what about that then. Think one could reaffix an IHS acceptably well to make it worth putzing with? An extra TIM joint doesn't make me happy in the nether regions.

The discussion is good and it will probably prompt me to test a block w/ IHS and then pop it off for retesting.

[pHaestus]

Orkan no offense but most people don't solder wires onto their CPUs to read temperatures off the diode to 0.1C or spend 20 hours remounting and adjusting flow rates to test out a waterblock either.

If I do it how "most people" do it then we won't get any useful information.

I know you said you don't need to have a Ph.D to use logic, but education DOES help one logically design experiments (at least in my experience).

Don't think I'll do something off the wall that doesn't compare to anything that "regular people" will do, but sometimes things have to be done a bit different from "stock" to get useful info out of the system.

[BillA]

don't really know pH
from an individual perspective all I need is a source, I can figure out what the #s mean
from a community perspective a common platform is needed

TTVs, good or bad, are out due to nonavailability

a heat die is needed, how much similitude is to be sought ?
AND HOW WILL THE FACE BE MAINTAINED ?
this topic cannot progress (with me) w/o addressing this issue
I had offered to lap dies while with Swiftech, this is now out - what next ?
I can hand lap because I have a Flatscope (optical flat reflex viewer), do it 'till its right
what does everyone else do ?

let us NOT hear foolishness about 'good enough', this is the heart of the whole system
not flat = variable and certainly lower results

EDIT
a good (sensitive) system will begin to show degradation after 20 mounts or so on a 10x10mm soft copper die

[Orkan]

I guess it really doesn't matter if you pop the top or not... so long as the IHS does not create a wider heat source than a cpu die.

Seems logical that it would, however. If you completely dismiss it, then no one that runs an IHS will truely know how this block is meant to perform on their system.

[nikhsub1]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Well what about that then. Think one could reaffix an IHS acceptably well to make it worth putzing with? An extra TIM joint doesn't make me happy in the nether regions.

The discussion is good and it will probably prompt me to test a block w/ IHS and then pop it off for retesting.

Actually, this was quite common in the northwood days, people would pop the IHS, remove the crap TIM from intel and put Ceramique or AS-5 and would have quite good results... usually only 1-2C hotter than with no IHS. Some folks would cut out the socket from an old mobo, insert the CPU to the socket then use some sort of epoxy to seal the IHS back down to the PCB. They would then put massive weight (15-20 pounds maybe) on the CPU until the epoxy cured.

[BillA]

I believe 'blank' IHSs can be sourced, just need a TIM joint procedure
how is the IHS edge to be supported, this is the load bearing element
the edges cannot float, eh ?

if an IHS is to be used, the CPU package must be replicated adound the heat die
(or develop a correlation, but we've been here already)

[nikhsub1]

Here is a thread of a guy putting an IHS onto a Dothan... http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=68378

[Marci]

{SNIP}

Bin that idea...

@Bill re edges - black silicon sealant as used in both Intel and AMD by the looksa things... how much downforce does press exhert and for how long is now the question, to be able to replicate a "true" mounting...

[Marci]

I believe 'blank' IHSs can be sourced, just need a TIM joint procedure
how is the IHS edge to be supported, this is the load bearing element
the edges cannot float, eh ?

if an IHS is to be used, the CPU package must be replicated adound the heat die
(or develop a correlation, but we've been here already)

Can send u a dead A64-3400+ Clawhammer if ya like to butcher for IHS and peruse AMD's current IHS bonding methodology...

[BillA]

a cheap view, sure
Thanks

but if a heat die is used per Cathar et all, how is the package/mobo (section) affixed to the die; and then the sink or wb to that ?

not too simple mechanically, in fact a nightmare

reverse engn that joint is going to be difficult, define a method and run with it
- a correlation would be prudent else the #s could be unique (specific to bench)

[Orkan]

to use a heat die, and then affix a salvaged IHS to that... in my mind would create more variables that just using a cpu in the first place.

[BillA]

or a heat die ?

Occam's razor

[Annirak]

I still maintain that through the judicious use of insulation, a closed system could be made in the coolant loop, and the power out of a conventional CPU could be found, allowing conventional CPUs to be used for WB testing purposes.