|
|
Heatsink/ Heat Pipe / ThermoSiphon Cooling The cat will only make the mistake of putting its paw by your HSF once. :) Also the place to discuss the new high end heat pipe goodness. |
Thread Tools |
09-17-2002, 10:53 AM | #1 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
|
Grouding your heatsink = Free MHz
We have quite an interesting thread going over at hardforum about the benefits of grounding your heatsink or waterblock. So far it's been shown to either achieve stability at a previously unstable overclock, sometimes gain a few more MHz FSB stable, and sometimes do nothing. In my case, it got me stable at an overclock that would crash after several hours of running prior to grounding the heatsink.
Here's the complete thread: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread....hreadid=486010
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall? |
09-17-2002, 12:47 PM | #2 |
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
|
There's a LOT of garbage in there!
To clarify some points: 1-yes, the PSU is grounded to the chassis. 2-No, the alligator clip does not add to the cooling ability of the HSF (at least not significantly). 3-Yes, grounding the HSF will shield the rest of the world from the EMI emitted by the CPU, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that the CPU may be sensitive to EMI. 4-Did anyone think about measuring voltages, or signals between an HSF and ground? I'm on page 5 now... 5-Water Wetter does not prevent galvanic corrosion, it slows it down, a lot. 6-If you plug your computer in an outlet without a ground, then your computer is not grounded! (which is bad) The white (hot) wire is NOT a ground, but it is connected to it. That third prong is for protection, and to absorb (errant) voltages, as the dude found out (the hard way!). 7-A fan does not produce EMI within a frequency that is likely to affect the CPU, but it is possible. 8-Although a PSU is the biggest EMI generator, it is only so in amplitude, and again, at a specific frequency range. Pfew... ok I'm done going through all 17 pages (90% garbage BTW). |
09-17-2002, 12:48 PM | #3 |
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
|
BTW, welcome to ProCooling!
|
09-17-2002, 03:35 PM | #4 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SLO, CA
Posts: 837
|
ok BigBen
Can you give us the extreme readers digest version of that site and verify that it is "possible" to achieve a slightly higher OC with grounding out the waterblock/HSF? BTW thanks for weeding throught the "crap" for us
__________________
Athlon64 X2 4200+ @ 2.5Ghz (250FSB x 10) OCZ VX 1GB 4000 @ 250FSB (6-2-2-2 timmings) DFI LANParty nForce4 Ultra-D SCSI Raid 5 x (3) Cheetah 15K HDDs LSI Express 500 (128MB cache) OCZ PowerStream 520W PSU ATI X850XT PE (Stock) DTEK WhiteWater + DTEK Custom Radiator Eheim 1250 |
09-17-2002, 03:49 PM | #5 |
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
|
Ok. In short the idea is to ground your HSF or waterblock to your case, to shield your CPU from EMI (Electro-Magnetic Interference), in order to achieve a better overclock.
IMO, it would be best to bolt a copper wire to the HSF, for good contact. Either way, it can't hurt, so it's all good. FYI, results vary, and range from <no change> to <upped by 50MHz>. |
09-17-2002, 04:48 PM | #6 |
The Pro/Life Support System
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
|
Umm what about all the EMI that slams all the trace wires running from the CPU? or the north bridge.
I think its sort of the placebo effect personally. I mean what if when they were dorking with their block/HSF they got a better thermal interface between the block and core? easy 50Mhz. I have heard of this stuff in cars before ( Uber ground your engine = free 50 Hp!... ) and it was as much BS then as I think it is for the CPU's now. Wrap your head in tin! you can think faster!
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton. |
09-17-2002, 04:57 PM | #7 |
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
|
True, but a couple of people reported that when they disconnected the wire (from the new OCd CPU) it would crash.
I don't know. It seems pretty fuzzy, and might fall within error margins. Like I said, I'd like to see someone hook up an oscilloscope and actually measure the potential difference between the sink and the case. |
09-17-2002, 05:25 PM | #8 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
|
If I had an oscilloscope, I would do it right now. Squeaky1 (the thread starter) is going to make a chart of different peoples results for easy comparison. And I know there are a lot of retarded posts in there, particularly by safemode, but I can't really go around deleting posts just because they're stupid, lol .
Anyway, in my case it did help, and the heatsink was never taken off. All I did was jam a copper 12AWG wire between the fins of my heatsink and attach the other end through a hole in my case. Thanks for the welcome, btw .
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall? |
09-17-2002, 05:39 PM | #9 |
The Pro/Life Support System
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
|
ahh just noticed your location, you are the guy pH is working with for that thingamabob
I dont buy it still, Placebo, or lies by certain people, or a "ditry" test where some variables changed between the wire on/wire off test. If you are running a full metal case, with the side on there should be rather little outside EMI. BTW you are exceeding the max allowed [H]'s per sig.
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton. |
09-17-2002, 06:03 PM | #10 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
|
Quote:
As to the [H]s, I like em where they are . I can of course move them if you really want....
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall? |
|
09-18-2002, 01:58 AM | #11 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pa - USA
Posts: 264
|
Quote:
It's an interesting read, but I would like to see real world results. Simple test would be to have a SWITCHED wire connecting the Heatsink to ground. This way you could test the theory WITHOUT touching the Heatsink during the test, and possibly moving it enough to change the thermal interface. Few other questions: Would it have anything to do with grounding the actual Silicon on the CPU die? Does this happen with a Peltier setup where the cold plate is NOT electrically connected to the Heatsink/waterblock (i.e. Nylon bolts). Does the phenomenon change when you move other components around/farther away? Are the HS/WB mounting holes in the MB grounded, and if so, and this is true, any heatsink/waterblock mounted with metal bolts would have a natural advantage(if they have proper electrical conductivity to the ground of the motherboard). All could be checked with proper testing. (and, I beleive it's possible that proper grounding in a car = more HP, but only if you have installed a high end ignition system, and upgraded a lot of things. The factory ground wire is not that thick and might impede the higher-power ignition system(if it's grounded to the chassis). It doesn't add more HP, but actually allows the other components to add the HP they should. The ground cable on my friends car melted down due to it being to small and instalation of better components) But remember, big stickers add 50Hp, thats where the real HP is gained. |
|
09-18-2002, 12:35 PM | #12 |
Pro/Staff
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Posts: 1,439
|
Does this mean that all of us watercoolers are really getting our overclocks because of the grounding? My waterblock is electrically connected to the heatercore by water (with ions it has a good low resistance, doesn't it?) and the heatercore is bolted to the case with another metal to metal connection. Bingo! CPU to case ground connection.
Nothing to do with the good cooling effect of watercooling of course. P.S. I'm not discounting the possibility that there might be an effect. In science, always believe the data and THEN make/match a theory to match the data. Too many bad scientists try to discount data that doesn't match the current theory/gospel. |
09-18-2002, 12:42 PM | #13 | |
The Pro/Life Support System
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 4,041
|
Quote:
And about the engine, I have seen it fix some sputtering in some old engines, but nothing like 50Hp gain as claimed. Most of the people how I know that I have done the "mod" have claimed "it goes much better now", when 1/4 mile slips and dyno numbers show no increase in power. The placebo effect rocks!
__________________
Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton. |
|
09-18-2002, 02:49 PM | #14 |
Pro/Staff
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Posts: 1,439
|
I'm not arguing that the grounding actually works, but...
Silicon is not an insulator. It is a semiconductor. Plus, at the very fast switching speeds and low voltages, we have measured performance differences at work on whether our chuck tops were voltage biased, connected to ground or left floating. We produce semiconductor testing equipment where you put a fully processed (or not fully processed, as the case might be) silicon wafer onto a metal chuck (flat round surface) for electrical testing. Now, when I say performance, I don't mean overclocking performance. I'm talking about threshold differences that might mean NOTHING to a CPU chip. These are "performance differences of femto-amps at 110GHz frequency and voltage sweeps. It's the capacitance problem. At high frequencies, capacitance issues degrade the edges of logic signals and filter out high frequency components to analog signals (particularly important to microwave frequency amplifier/processing components). I'm saying all this because I think the subject is fascinating, not because I think it actually makes a difference. In commercial chip designs, the designers assume a worst case capacitance based upon a normal air-cooled (ungrounded) design. So, there is probably PLENTY of headroom to deal with stuff like that. Who knows.... |
09-18-2002, 07:19 PM | #15 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
|
I find it quite interesting too. But the fact that for some people, it can instantly cause a BSOD when disconnected makes it seem to me like it has some merit. I talked to Outcast from www.monster-hardware.com and he told me he's getting someone to do a review on whether this works or not.
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall? |
09-22-2002, 12:10 AM | #16 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pa - USA
Posts: 264
|
Well, I think my switch idea above should work at least in part to figure this out. You can immediately switch it between grounded & ungrounded without interfering the heatsink/block itself.
|
09-22-2002, 12:38 AM | #17 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Posts: 294
|
Yah, give it a try for sure, and tell me how it goes. Someone tried it on his Duron and gained 60MHz.
__________________
Can anyone else here say that they have a watercooled monster that's 45" tall? |
09-22-2002, 02:24 AM | #18 |
Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Danville
Posts: 96
|
Well...i can verify that Apple's ground their heatsinks. The clips touch grounding pads on my GPU module, which are inturn grounded to the case.
__________________
What a chump. |
10-20-2002, 11:40 AM | #19 | |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 230
|
Quote:
As for the grounded HS idea, I should try it, if I can get the extra overclock, why not?
__________________
Signing out... Yo-DUH_87 If it works, fix it until it's broke! Then, after it's broke, add duct tape! Affordable webhosting! |
|
10-20-2002, 02:50 PM | #20 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
|
oscilloscope? Gimme a few minutes to run the wires
BTW, I am dead serious, I picked up a free 1mhz o-scope in perfect working order, and I did NOT steal it. Still dont have too much of a clue what im doing with it, but I'll expand the interference to see whats going on... Back in five.
__________________
MeltMan Lurker Supreme! |
10-20-2002, 03:59 PM | #21 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
|
Best pic, but expanded too far not showing the second smaller "pulse"
__________________
MeltMan Lurker Supreme! |
10-20-2002, 03:59 PM | #22 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
|
With second pulse visible. Damn its hard to take pics of my scope and have them come out clear.
__________________
MeltMan Lurker Supreme! Last edited by MeltMan; 10-20-2002 at 04:06 PM. |
10-20-2002, 04:01 PM | #23 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
|
There you have it. There IS some funky EMI picked up by my scope. The scope dropped to nothing when disconnected and the probe was shielded, so there wasnt any emi picked up by the wires. I tested with voltage increased, and frequency increased but noticed a VERY slight increase in EMI noise. When fan was unplugged, no change, still EMI. All tests performed on a stock Duron 1000 @ 1000 with a crappy aluminum HSF.
MTB increased to .5 us. You can now see the repeating pattern.
__________________
MeltMan Lurker Supreme! Last edited by MeltMan; 10-20-2002 at 04:07 PM. |
10-20-2002, 07:33 PM | #24 |
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
|
Errr... OK, so what's the frequency of the interference?
Very nice work! |
10-21-2002, 08:30 AM | #25 |
Cooling Savant
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: KS
Posts: 374
|
Derrr... I dunno. The sampling period for the top 2 pictures was 50ns. Maybe you divide to find the actual frequency. Like I said, I got this thing, and dont know how to use it yet. I forgot to note, with a ground, there was hardly any difference in the signals. They decreased slightly, but nothing significant. They people getting big gains from this must have tons of EMI. Also note, my computer was not in its case, it was laying on an anti static bag on the floor and the ground was tied directly to the psu unit. Perhaps this makes a difference?
__________________
MeltMan Lurker Supreme! |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|