Sub forum for Radiator Design

[TNT2bluz]

All due honor to the corps, of course.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

They usually jolt like that when you hit a nerve.

Nah. That's just another example of amateur psychology babble. Such statement types are used try to deflect attention away from the fact when someone is right through a lame attempt to lump them as being the ones with the problem.

You're certainly full of it.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by TNT2bluz

All due honor to the corps, of course.

Thanks, some of my best Marines were from PI

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Cathar

.....trying to deflect attention away from the fact when someone is right.

Not at all but how long would you like to belabor this. Look I believe that you really think your right. Now carry on.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Not at all but how long would you like to belabor this. Look I believe that you really think your right. Now carry on.

No, now you're just trolling for the sake of it.

I'm done.

[Spot]

lol, now back to the topic of the sub-forum, where were we..............

[Long Haired Git]

Someone, please, chop this into two so I don't have to read it.
Between these two and BillA vs Dave in the other thread, well, sigh....

Its got nothing to do with a bloody radiator design subforum, even though its a topic worth "discussion"....

[Marci]

Wow... knew I should've signed on last night and checked this thread... */me starts brushing the empty shell cases into a tidy pile in the corner*

Though I admire Thermochill's persistence in keeping production in UK, the economic forces are working the other way.

Well I'll explain some of the reasoning for that... back in the early days when we (as Over-Clock UK) first started with watercooling, radiators were the single component we ALWAYS ran out of. The only choice those days was BlackIce and their distributor network wasn't quite as pleasant as it is these days. We were having to buy rads in from the US & Germany, and finding our rads frequently being held hostage by either the supplier or customs. We'd go from sales-thru-the-roof to nothing solely because we'd been fed a load of crap regarding our radiator orders and would often be sat without any for months on end. This started to have the knock on effect of giving us a bad name for never having any stock of the goods we advertised, and rarely being able ot provide full kits as we never had any rads.

Back then also, the shipping costs escalated the price of the rads too much to import them into the UK unless bought in unrealistically large quantities - much the same problem that others are experiencing now with ThermoChill rads overseas...

The solution to this issue was ThermoChill. UK Produced radiators, no importing, no sitting round with a middleman ensuring you your order had been shipped when it was still sat in their warehouse with half of it missing as they'd swiped it to give to a bigger customer... if there was a rush on a line of rads, no waiting months for restocks... we can have them back on the shelves within 24hrs these days...

This filled a nice hole... list the UK Manufacturers in the watercooling scene... you only need one hand. Hell you don't even need a whole hand of digits... so anyone foolish with a jigsaw and lost a finger - join in!!

We as a company like, admire and respect ethics that work and mean something when applied directly to your own circumstances. Cathar's ethics in our eyes are impeccably perfect and we'll happily stand alongside him on the value of ethics by his definition. It is these ethics that form the relationship of trust between us... we won't work with unethical people - we've inadvertantly done so in the past but as soon as we've become aware we've severed all associations rapidly. A gentleman's agreement can go a long way...

Thing is not posting the info on forums will not get you anywhere really. Once you release the product they will copy it anyway. Might take a little longer though.

The initial surge on a product is enough to cover development and prototyping costs... if the clone gets on the market first, or just early enough after initial launch, it can leave those costs lingering which prevents further work from being done... can't take the next step til you've completed the first step, and each step involves covering the costs for that step. If the release of the clones can simply be stalled by withholding information, that's enough to at least ensure we get the cost of prototypes back from the initial orders. The info and details can be let loose in the first reviews of the product, which will be enough to drive the product for the first month of it's life... "Might take a little longer" is the aime of the game at the moment - stall `em!

Another problem with China seems to be spam and hacking. 99% of the port scans recorded on my firewall and 75% of all spam I recieve is from there... China is not exactly high on the ethical bandwagon on any level.

Heh - tell me about it! The servers hosting thermochill.com and over-clock.com both get DDoS'd on a regular basis, usually from the same army of zombies, usually to cover up a huge portscan from the same origination... the amount it's cost in FloodGuard protection this year alone is staggering compared to previous years.

Its got nothing to do with a bloody radiator design subforum, even though its a topic worth "discussion"....

Here you have four of the major players in the PC-Watercooling-Radiator-Production market... all giving their reasons behind why they think a rad-design subforum isn't going to be of much use to them as businesses... and that reason is purely a lack of ethics amongst those who can obtain access to that info... it is related, but the personal attacks have dragged things sideways a touch. Bear with... we'll get back on track

[flatline]

yes id like a rad section aswell most kind ... oh and 1 for phyco babble/flames (takes tolong to filter thru) tnx

[Marci]

list the UK Manufacturers in the watercooling scene... you only need one hand. Hell you don't even need a whole hand of digits... so anyone foolish with a jigsaw and lost a finger - join in!!

...and then knock one off that list... WACC just closed down - see http://www.wetandchillychips.co.uk

They were Britain's "European" manufacturer - 8mm quickfit tubing stuff based heavily on the German-designed waterblocks and accessories...

[Sin22]

Originally Posted by Cathar

To answer Sin22 above, despite the very obvious similarities of various other waterblock designs to one of my earlier designs, at least those using the inherent design added something or did something different, and didn't try to use the success of one of my designs in their marketing material. I may not have liked the fact that important elements of the designs were copied, but in comparison they all stand head and shoulders over the sort of practise being defended above.

I do understand what you are saying and agree with you. Gist being, that it is one thing to copy wholesale, another to copy and at least tweak it abit so as to not appear copied.

But this thread is getting a bit heated and off-topic, it does appear that everyone has had their say so perhaps getting back to the actual discussion of having a rad sub-forum may be in order.

The idea of re-naming the waterblock design sub-forum into a "component design" sub-forum has merit in itself and would be IMO one of the better ways to go abt implementing it.

[TNT2bluz]

The truth is being a marine has absolutely nothing to do nor does it add to the mix. Using it to describe some seemingly arbitrary honor code does more discredit than anything else.

So please, let's just keep that kind of babble away from this.

At the end of the day, its actually a trading firm as far as its activities are concerned. I'm certain all the patriotic banter falls flat when you realize where he's actually sourcing his clones.

A radiator sub-forum can be a good idea. The truth is, whatever improvements you apply at this stage has a considerable amount of engineering and tooling implementation required.

There's the 100's of hours of wind tunnel testing and fan spec validation one would need to do and still make sure it'd do well enough when people insist on their own ventillation options.

These things aren't cheap and I doubt PC radiator manufacturers would be willing to let such data go so easily with the usual suspects just waiting to get their powder-burned paws on them.

Note I use the term "PC radiator" manufacturers. These heat exchangers aren't just "tubes and fins" as simplistic immitators would think.

[Marci]

The idea of re-naming the waterblock design sub-forum into a "component design" sub-forum has merit in itself and would be IMO one of the better ways to go abt implementing it.

^^Agree...

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by TNT2bluz

The truth is being a marine has absolutely nothing to do nor does it add to the mix. Using it to describe some seemingly arbitrary honor code does more discredit than anything else.

So please, let's just keep that kind of babble away from this.

At the end of the day, its actually a trading firm as far as its activities are concerned. I'm certain all the patriotic banter falls flat when you realize where he's actually sourcing his clones.

A radiator sub-forum can be a good idea. The truth is, whatever improvements you apply at this stage has a considerable amount of engineering and tooling implementation required.

There's the 100's of hours of wind tunnel testing and fan spec validation one would need to do and still make sure it'd do well enough when people insist on their own ventillation options.

These things aren't cheap and I doubt PC radiator manufacturers would be willing to let such data go so easily with the usual suspects just waiting to get their powder-burned paws on them.

Note I use the term "PC radiator" manufacturers. These heat exchangers aren't just "tubes and fins" as simplistic immitators would think.

I’m not going to keep kicking this horse and this got way too off topic. If you want to discuss this further you can email me or PM me.

[BillA]

Hi Willie

the crux of the issue is data
w/o data its all conjecture and degrades immediately to debating opinions
and the data is so costly that none who have such will release it

worth observing is that the designer does not have to be the mfgr, the QP rads are a case in point
and, like Willie, there is another big step up ahead

if you users would like to contribute, state what you would like to see in a new rad
- then watch the scramble to make the product, IF someone thinks there is a real market
(and not 6 extremists hyperventilating with each other, I'm reminded of the 3 fan rads)

there will be a significant amt of comparative data released shortly, by the same source as ever
performance data, not radiator 'design' data; good for inferences however

[billbartuska]

OK! OK! I have to clock in on this thread.

I'm just a lowly dedicated watercooling overclocker.

This thread is going to lead to the end of the disimination useful information to ME and many more like me.

I've seen it happen elseware (IDENInsider.com...gone!)

Moderator(s), It's a VERY interesting thread, but it's only sending this board downhill.

And you guys...forget your personal beliefs, trials and turbulations...I (we?) don't care.

A thread in rad design..GREAT!, let's go!

[BillA]

how does something end before it has begun ?
no engn data has been posted on specific liquid/air heat exchangers, none - ever
you have no real use for engn data, what you can use is objective performance data
just treat rads as a black box, works just fine for wcing systems builders (for those that understand the data)

[TNT2bluz]

Nice to see you up and running again Bill, motivating as ever.

Radiator engineers are a very cautious bunch when it comes to making conclusive statements, its always a lot of testing, tweaking, prototyping, testing, tweaking, prototyping, tweaking...and on and on.

Fundamental factors remain the same, waterside/airside surface area, airside pressure drop, flow resistance...how far discussions go will depend on what people are willing to contribute along those lines.

[billbartuska]

Well, my first reaction was to join in on you guy's esoteric flame fest by sitting all the reasons why engr data would be useful to me..I am an engr with significant experience in liquid transfer and heat exchange specs, design and installation in two industries....but

You're right, other than a few people here most would go right over their head....so

Let's get on with a discussion of the various pros/cons of radiator designs AND performance data!

I'm only trying to keep this forum useful to the people that are so grateful for it's existence.

[BillA]

on the front burner
had to go back and delete a rad that was covered by an NDA which I had forgotten
pretty soon

"Radiator engineers are a very cautious bunch when it comes to making conclusive statements, its always a lot of testing, tweaking, prototyping, testing, tweaking, prototyping, tweaking...and on and on."

designing rads is a humbling experience, sooo many ways to do it wrong

[TNT2bluz]

I think you have to specify what kind of radiators are normally suited for which application. The flat tube and serpentine fin design was our configuration of choice for the Black Ice due to its high internal surface area, conductivity, and dimensional compression.

Oil coolers are designed to tackle the viscosity of the intended medium.

Folks in the HVAC industry have other radiator types which they use, like round tube force-fitted across flat fins and heated to expand. This suits chilled water flowing through them as cooling coils.

Similar configurations using thicker-walled copper capillary tubes are reserved for use in vaporphase applications.

Charge air coolers (intercoolers) are designed to be air-to-air heat exchangers to cool down compressed air.

billbartuska, we can have say the Black Ice Xtreme radiator in one configuration (specified fin density, specific louvre geometry, tube type etc.) and will perform better given a specific set of paramaters such as right amount of airflow or perform worse say given a very constricting waterblock with an inadequate pump.

[bigben2k]

Although I agree with Bill that there is essentially no useful engineering data on radiators, I wouldn't mind seeing some of the home-made radiators that some people have put together.

We can get into discussions about radiator design, but the bottom line is that due to cost and performance, a heatercore will always come out on top.

For those interested, the reason that any engineering data would not be usefull, is simply because many radiators are tested for their intended purpose (a car), and the testing environment isn't anything near what is involved in a PC, nor would it be measured the same way.

[TNT2bluz]

Actually the tests done are similar to that of automotive radiators save that you'd need more sensitive airflow sensors and higher tolerance flowmeters.

[BillA]

"but the bottom line is that due to cost and performance, a heatercore will always come out on top."

where on earth do you get this stuff Ben ?
please substantiate with data

[TNT2bluz]

Considering the cost factor thanks to scales of economy, very basic manufacturing processes and the general size of heatercores, the performance-price punch is pretty remarkable.

Now since the industry is "expanding" the issue of aesthetics, ease of use, and versatility are added to the soup, the "added value" comes into play.