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Unread 07-22-2003, 03:35 PM   #51
BillA
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nooo Ivo, something is amiss
how are you measuring your flow rate ?
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Unread 07-22-2003, 05:46 PM   #52
copyman
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
nooo Ivo, something is amiss
how are you measuring your flow rate ?
I will try to explain in a very simple way


30 liter mark reservoir => QUIETONE 1100GPH => RAD F2 => LRWW => 30 liter reservoir


I caught two reservoirs of 30 liters, I made 10 demarcations of 2 in 2 liters in one of them

I uncoupled the tubes of y I changed the tube of entrance of the bomb for a more length and I dipped the tip of the return of the block in the gallon with demarcation and the tube of entrance of the bomb in the full reservoir

after removing the air of the system, and leaving a little of fluid so that the air didn't come back inside of the exit tubes in the reservoir with the demarcations, I tied the bomb and I gave start in I time it when he reached the first mark and I stopped in the last.

it was long 35 seconds of the first mark to the last when it completed the volume of 20 liters

I know Bil that I began with more pressure in the entrance of the pump and for the other I had to dip the tube and to hold the flow after threading in the fluid,but I also had the opposite pressure when the level of the two gallons was and the one of demarcation was larger, even so they were not exactly with the same fluid surpluses in the two, I also know, it is not the most beautiful way and of larger precision of doing, but it works.

Last edited by copyman; 07-22-2003 at 05:51 PM.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 05:58 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by copyman
I HAVE USING A QUIETONE 1100GPH => RAD F2 => LRWW = 34 LITERS PER MINUTE WITH 2,5 METERS OF TUBES OF 1\2 INCH .

MY BOMB CONSUMES 80W
Okay, something is terribly amiss here.

Taking BillA's pressure drop data for the White Water alone of ~3.0m of pressure drop at 10lpm.

At 34lpm we're looking at around 35m of pressure drop for the White Water alone at a minimum.

To push 34 lpm against a pressure drop of 35m requires 195W of mechanical power to do so as an absolute physical minimum.

i.e. it's physically impossible for an 80W power-draw pump to be doing 195W of work.

Something wrong with your calculations Ivo.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 06:33 PM   #54
copyman
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cathar
Okay, something is terribly amiss here.

Taking BillA's pressure drop data for the White Water alone of ~3.0m of pressure drop at 10lpm.

At 34lpm we're looking at around 35m of pressure drop for the White Water alone at a minimum.

To push 34 lpm against a pressure drop of 35m requires 195W of mechanical power to do so as an absolute physical minimum.

i.e. it's physically impossible for an 80W power-draw pump to be doing 195W of work.

Something wrong with your calculations Ivo.
Good cathar, I am right of my numbers, it was not alone with that bomb and your block that I obtained more than 25 liters per minute in a system, I can re-do the tests, I can film, I can order for bill the whole system for him to test, but I am completing 34 liters for minute of final flow of the system, unless the way as I made the tests above it is wrong
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Unread 07-22-2003, 07:51 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cathar
Okay, something is terribly amiss here.

Taking BillA's pressure drop data for the White Water alone of ~3.0m of pressure drop at 10lpm.

At 34lpm we're looking at around 35m of pressure drop for the White Water alone at a minimum.

To push 34 lpm against a pressure drop of 35m requires 195W of mechanical power to do so as an absolute physical minimum.

i.e. it's physically impossible for an 80W power-draw pump to be doing 195W of work.

Something wrong with your calculations Ivo.

cathar, my wife that to kill me, I wet half of my house, I tested here only to remove one doubts two your calculations, I used a bomb of 30w 1,5 meters of tubes of 1\2, a new rad that I am doing of 6 " x 6 " of measures, and logical, much more restrictive than F2 and a block tc4, obtained 10.9 liters per minute in the end circuit.

and now?

for your calculations I do think still has something not wandered?

as I think the tc4 requests something as 3m pressure drops at 10lpm

To something wrong somewhere, because that horrible bomb that used of 30w could not also make that

and now friend?

Last edited by copyman; 07-22-2003 at 08:05 PM.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 09:14 PM   #56
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I've searched at several sites that carry Quiet one water pumps.

The one that would push the most through a system I was able to find:

Model #4000 high head

Free flow rate of 980 gph.

Max head rate of 13'

watts draw of 120 watts

But this pump would fall far short of 30lpm system flow, yet it is the highest head rate I've found so far for a Quiet one pump.

While you may well have a model I wasn't able to find yet this shows that something is wrong with the stats you are giving for your largest pump. It just can't possibly have 1100gph with a draw of only 80 watts yet drive a flow of 30lpm through a LRWW block. A 80 watt pump just isn't strong enough to push such a system flow rate.

Sence I read your posts with BillA and Cathar I've been searching. Not just for a Quiet one pump that could meet those performance figures while drawing only 80 watts, but for any pump by any maker that could do so. After searching a number of sites I've come to believe such a pump does not exist. Closest I've seen was a Iwaki MD-70rlzt with 20m of head rate, but a wattage draw that was sky high.

Could you please post your Quiet one model number and full stats for it? That should help solve the issue.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 09:26 PM   #57
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The Quiet One I found with a draw rate close to your stated draw.

Free flow 1040gph

Flow @ 6' of head 600gph

Watts draw of 85 watts

Max head rate wasn't stated, but the above shows it wouldn't be more than about 10.5'
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Unread 07-22-2003, 09:52 PM   #58
copyman
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blackeagle
The Quiet One I found with a draw rate close to your stated draw.

Free flow 1040gph

Flow @ 6' of head 600gph

Watts draw of 85 watts

Max head rate wasn't stated, but the above shows it wouldn't be more than about 10.5'
That also bestirs me and a lot, somewhere to a mistake, doesn't care mine or of other, but it would like of you find it, that is the objective

What finds strange it is to obtain a rate with that equipment that is also impossible according to the measures of the review of the tc4, and I have just made the tests with that system

I tested here only to remove one doubts two your calculations, I used a bomb of 30w 1,5 meters of tubes of 1\2, a new rad that I am doing of 6 " x 6 " of measures, and logical, much more restrictive than F2 and a block tc4, obtained 10.9 liters per minute in the end circuit.

as I think the tc4 requests something as 3m pressure drops at 10lpm

To something wrong somewhere, because that horrible bomb that used of 30w could not also make that

and now friend?

my model

model 40R175254V

MAX-FLOW (GPH) 1140
horse power 1/25 HP
WATTS 87w
SHUT-OFF PRESSURE 6.5 psi
Shut Off Heat Ft 15,5

GPM 19
L/M 72.2
GPH 1140
L/H 4332

Last edited by copyman; 07-22-2003 at 10:03 PM.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 09:53 PM   #59
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Man now I have to change my pants...

Very nice work.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 10:06 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by ItsSoLARGE
Man now I have to change my pants...

Very nice work.
hehehehe

aff

thanks
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Unread 07-22-2003, 10:22 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by copyman
my model

model 40R175254V

MAX-FLOW (GPH) 1140
horse power 1/25 HP
WATTS 87w
SHUT-OFF PRESSURE 6.5 psi
Shut Off Heat Ft 15,5

GPM 19
L/M 72.2
GPH 1140
L/H 4332
Sounds very, very similar to the Pondmaster 4200 pump (that's the Australian Pondmaster brand which is different to the USA Pondmaster brand) that I had once (I sold it). It was able to push slightly more than 10lpm of flow through a White Water system plus radiator. It was rated for 4200lph, 4.4m of pressure head, and 90W of power.

The secret is in the peak head though. 15.5', or 4.7m of pressure head at shut-off (no flow).

I suggest that the problem with the flow measurement is for you to find. We can't see what your setup is, so we can't see what might be wrong, even if you describe it correctly, but I can say for an almost certainty that however you're measuring it is giving values about 3x higher than actual.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 10:24 PM   #62
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If it can help, to diameter normal intern of a connection of 1\2 " it is 3\8, all my connections have internal diameter of 7\16 and my tubes are in on measure with internal diameter of 9\16
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Unread 07-22-2003, 10:38 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by copyman
If it can help, to diameter normal intern of a connection of 1\2 " it is 3\8, all my connections have internal diameter of 7\16 and my tubes are in on measure with internal diameter of 9\16
That would help a little, but not a huge amount, and certainly not enough to triple the flow rate, maybe help by 10%, if that. The bulk of the restriction is within the waterblock and radiator.
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Unread 07-22-2003, 10:55 PM   #64
copyman
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cathar
That would help a little, but not a huge amount, and certainly not enough to triple the flow rate, maybe help by 10%, if that. The bulk of the restriction is within the waterblock and radiator.
I will re-do the tests and to photograph to try to find the mistake in the weekend, what continues me inconveniencing it is behind the flow that I obtained with a bomb from 30w to minutes, with the rad 6x6 and the tc4 in the circuit, I obtained 2 liters to every 11 seconds, that according to the calculations is also impossible, however it was done.


thank you very much cathar
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Unread 07-23-2003, 06:14 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
nooo Ivo, something is amiss
how are you measuring your flow rate ?
Bil your water column x flow rate in the tests of the cpu die simulator of the lrww is simulating one of 1\4 of diameter?
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Unread 07-23-2003, 06:41 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by copyman
Bil your water column x flow rate in the tests of the cpu die simulator of the lrww is simulating one of 1\4 of diameter?
sorry Ivo, I don't understand the question

the flow rate was measured with a Danfoss MAG 5000 flowmeter with MAG 1100 ¼in. magnetic flowtube (±1/2% of reading accuracy)
- magnetic flow meters read the velocity which must be within a certain range, had I wished to measure higher flow rates I would have used a larger flow tube (which I have up to 2" ID, and positive displacement pumps to match)

pressure drop with a Foxboro 823DP differential pressure transmitter and Digitek digital gauge (~±1 to 2% accuracy)

the pressure drop is accurate over the flow rates shown, and as Cathar has pointed out will increase exponentially beyond the flow rates tested
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Unread 07-23-2003, 07:10 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
sorry Ivo, I don't understand the question

the flow rate was measured with a Danfoss MAG 5000 flowmeter with MAG 1100 ¼in. magnetic flowtube (±1/2% of reading accuracy)
- magnetic flow meters read the velocity which must be within a certain range, had I wished to measure higher flow rates I would have used a larger flow tube (which I have up to 2" ID, and positive displacement pumps to match)

pressure drop with a Foxboro 823DP differential pressure transmitter and Digitek digital gauge (~±1 to 2% accuracy)

the pressure drop is accurate over the flow rates shown, and as Cathar has pointed out will increase exponentially beyond the flow rates tested
varying the diameter of the column to be supported if it varies the pressure to be submitted to reach the same level

a bomb pushing a column with diameter of 1\2 inch reaches a height

the same bomb pushing a column with diameter of 3\4 of inch reaches another height

the commercial bombs are hour measured with a column in your exit diameter, hour measured with a diameter considered pattern by the manufacturer, or just for the generated psi.

I wanted something simple, I wanted to know when you speak in 3mh2o, that pressure you apply to the fluid to simulate that, I can like this in a rustic way to compare with the supported maximum columns published by the manufacturers of the bombs with yours, since they don't have a defined pattern

did you understand my considerations?
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Unread 07-23-2003, 07:26 PM   #68
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nope

a pump with a 2m head capability will push a column 2m in height
1/8" diameter, 2" diameter - no difference at all
(just longer to pump the larger volume)
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Unread 07-23-2003, 11:59 PM   #69
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I must compliment you on your radiator design - it seems to be very efficient. Drool-inducing, too - it's been a while since i've seen something that polished.

However, I have to agree with cathar, unregistered and the rest of those who have been saying you can't possibly pump 20-30 lpm through your setup with anything short of a massive industrial pump. I'm looking forward to seeing the tests redone, if you do get a chance to do them this weekend. Something's amiss - and if not, you need to teach the rest of us to break the laws of physics too.
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Unread 07-24-2003, 08:51 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by flyingass
I must compliment you on your radiator design - it seems to be very efficient. Drool-inducing, too - it's been a while since i've seen something that polished.

However, I have to agree with cathar, unregistered and the rest of those who have been saying you can't possibly pump 20-30 lpm through your setup with anything short of a massive industrial pump. I'm looking forward to seeing the tests redone, if you do get a chance to do them this weekend. Something's amiss - and if not, you need to teach the rest of us to break the laws of physics too.
I will re-do the tests on the weekend, some on this day, in some point I wandered, and as the tests were made only one time that it is not impossible of happening.


If the results still go out of the normal or not, I will take the complete system for laboratory of the federal technical school or federal university, which I should have done before publishing rude numbers of flow rate.


living and learning
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Unread 07-24-2003, 09:13 AM   #71
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I am looking forward to the new / revised results.

Good work.
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Unread 07-25-2003, 11:49 PM   #72
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Gentlemen, re-done all the tests of flow rate and the results are posted below.

I actually was publishing the data of entrance flow rate in the block and not exit, a member of the forum xtremeforum asked me the question of as my system obtained of flow rate of the bomb going by the rad, (referring the pressure drop caused by the rad) he asked me which the flow rate that I arrived in the block, I was with that in my head as being final flow rate. (that even so were not precisely correct )

it seems, and it is a stupid mistake, but i was made, and luckily having corrected on time for the bill ,cathar and other friends to which my sincere gratefulness.

I assure friends that the lesson here learned, it was much larger than you can imagine

Speak-king on them later

method

The tests are still made in the same rustic way and they can contain mistakes, they are not definitive in hypothesis none

I caught two reservoirs of 30 liters, I made 10 demarcations of 2 in 2 liters in one of them
4 passages for each presented measurement

data of the tested equipments

PUMP

quiet one model 40R175254V

MAX-FLOW (GPH) 1140
horse power 1/25 HP
WATTS 87w
SHUT-OFF PRESSURE 6.5 psi
Shut Off Heat Ft 15,5

observations as the connections of the pump and tubes used in the test of flow rate of the pump

the entrance connections and exit of the pump has internal diameter of 9/16 and the tubes that I use has internal diameter of 1\2 inch

with 1 meter of tubes in the entrance and 1 meter of tubes in the exit the flow rate presented by the bomb + tubes it went of 37 seconds to move 20 liters / 32 liters per minute


PUMP + RAD F2

with 1 meter of the twith 1 meter of the tubes in the entrance of the bomb and 50 cm in the exit ties y of entrance of the rad, more 50 cm until the exit , the flow rate presented by the bomb+rad + tubes it went of 46 seconds to move 20 liters / 26 liters per minute

PUMP + RAD F2 + LRWW

with 1 meter of the tubes in the entrance of the bomb + 50 cm in the exit ties y of entrance of the rad, + 50 cm until the exit + LRWW + 50cm tubes , the flow rate presented by the bomb+rad + lrww + tubes it went of 93 seconds to move 20 liters / 12,9 liters per minute

PUMP + RAD F2 + CASCADE

with 1 meter of the tubes in the entrance of the bomb + 50 cm in the exit ties y of entrance of the rad, + 50 cm until the exit + CASCADE + 50cm tubes , the flow rate presented by the bomb+rad + CASCADE + tubes it went of 140 seconds to move 20 liters / 8,5 liters per minute


observation, all the used connections, less the one of the block's that if you maintain original they are re-worked and your internal diameter is of 7\16 ( the one of the bomb were already mentioned and the tubes also)

Last edited by copyman; 07-26-2003 at 01:10 AM.
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Unread 07-26-2003, 01:16 AM   #73
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for today it is alone that, I thank all, it is already late in Brazil, 4 hours of the dawn, tomorrow comment some things that I learned and another that I observed in the system and I place here for us to appreciate OR NOT

good night
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Unread 07-26-2003, 05:06 PM   #74
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today it is the first day with the cascade, him I think an exelente waterblock, as there was change of thermal paste of shin-etsumicrosi for as3 and modified some connections, although the results are very similar I cannot foresee it had only won or loss, in all the aspects him this very similar one in behavior with the lrww, tomorrow I will set up the lrww again with as3 to evaluate the differences

Cathar congratulations for the cascade, I think an exelent wb

A consideration only, who will migrate for a cascade, I advise the change of the fluid and a good one filtered in the same, because any dirt obstructed with easiness the pins injetors

The lrww was already easy to obstruct the micro chanel, with the cascade it is I criticize any particle in the fluid

A good way and to leave two filters done with woman's fine stockings in the tips of the hoses and arrested with elastic and inside of a recipient with a little more of fluid, some hours rotating and I think will already be ready to clamp the cascade.

new systems request attention, because every impurity type can have inside of the components, result of the production or storage of the components.

Did anybody with p4 make that same migration of the lrww for the cascade? could it happen your impressions on the change?

thank you very much friends
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Unread 07-26-2003, 06:40 PM   #75
copyman
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I forgot to mention...


New cores with dual fan soon, inside of some days new rads F2 in the sizes of it cores of
6,5"x 6 (48 flat tubes) and 5 " x 6 " (40 flat tubes) using the same technology and materials


Thank you very much to all


Ivo Guilhon (Copyman)
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