How to choose the optimal 120mm fan?

[Salkcin]

Hi,

I researched the world of 120mm fans and found it to be alot more complex than I thought. So I would like to know how I choose the optimal fan for watercooling?
I'm looking for a fan wich has the same noise level as my Papst (rated 26db, but you should know how a 120x25mm @1600RPM sounds like) so I guess a fan like Panaflo M1A would be far to loud - maybe a slightly undervoltet L1A could do the trick (but Panaflo fans are not avaiable in Denmark).

I allways used Papst 4412F/2GL, but found it's about the worst performing fan for watercooling. Fans like Panaflo M1A and L1A seems to be the choice of many, but why?
If I got it rigth it's the air pressure wich is important so wich fans scale best here?

Actually I made this thread to ask how the Silverstone fans will scale. Their 120mm fans are with 9 blades wich (if I'm correct) should increase the airpressure. Their fans a adjustable between 800-2400RPM so I can adjust it to a accepable noise level.

Would'nt these fans be good for watercooling on a radiator like PA120.x - or maybe one on each side of a BlackIce Xtreme?

Silverstone FM121 (120x25mm) : http://www.silverstonetek.com/products-fm121.htm
Silverstone FM122 (120x32mm) : http://www.silverstonetek.com/products-fm122.htm
Papst 4412F/2GL (120x25mm) : Specifications

[Senater_Cache]

I guess first off you would want to find the optimal tradeoff between pressure and cfm for your rad thickness.
I think a Sanyo Denki @ 7v is a pretty good choice in all respects, but I am not sure.
I have two of them and will install them next week and tel you about their performance.

[gmat]

Here is a round-up of 120mm fans to help you decide (use babelfish if you want to translate):
http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/1...tres/page1.php
The synthesis graphs are easy to understand:
http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/1...res/page26.php
Add to these the Delta WFB1212M and the Adda AD1212LB which are excellent

The best idea is to try them yourself and decide which one you prefer.

[Dr_Strangelove]

Looks like the Panaflo FBA12's are the best performing of the bunch. Now the question...is that true for all environments? Say if you were running a PA120.3 vs an HE120.3?

[gmat]

You'll have to cross this data, with manufacturer's static pressure vs flow graphs - and of course guess the static pressure of your target radiator

[Dr_Strangelove]

Originally Posted by gmat

You'll have to cross this data, with manufacturer's static pressure vs flow graphs - and of course guess the static pressure of your target radiator

"Attention Tower....Just did a flyby!" LOL...ok can you give an example of what you are proposing, if you have time of course. Let's say we use the PA120.3 for example:https://www.dangerdenstore.com/produ...&cat=76&page=1

Is there any conclusive data on this RAD?

--Hope I am not hijacking your thread, since I think you were asking this question based on the PA series of Radiators.

[Dr_Strangelove]

Someone suggested these as a good option for Radiators like the PA series:

http://jab-tech.com/YATE-LOON-120mm-...2-pr-3009.html

[Dr_Strangelove]

Also the Sanyon Denki San Ace models were suggested.

[gmat]

I mean, the matbe graphs do not reflect the static pressure vs airflow equation. They did only indirect measurements (by the means of temperatures) and with 1 static pressure situation that certainly won't match yours.
Now half the work is done by the fan mfger who provides (generally) PDF's of fan specs with static pressure vs airflow graphs (at least i know Delta, Panaflo and Papst do it). You'll see it's far from linear (a bit like pumps, really).
The problem is, guessing the static pressure created by a given rad. Generally you can assume thicker = more pressure, but fin spacing and construction have some influence. There's a thread currently in these forums about that precisely (testing real airflow of 120mm's on some rads).
Also the shroud has an effect, and the closeness of the fan relative to the rad... Think about tip vortices interacting with stuff around. If you have 2 fans you'll want to isolate them so their respective vortices don't interact. You get the idea, more turbulence = more noise.
What i ended up doing (for lack of data) was getting as many 120mm's as i could and testing them with my real setup (i already had a rad, though)

[ricecrispi]

recommended by Thermochill and Cathar
PAPST 4412FGL, Nexus 120mm, Noiseblocker 120mm

Nexus are yateloon but at lower and smaller PRM range.

The rad was designed around PAPST, yateloons, and panaflo fans in mind.

Link: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...t=10000&page=4

[Dr_Strangelove]

I am wondering why these would not work?
Sanyo Denki / San Ace 120mm x 38mm 109R1212H1011 Fans

Don't they have tons of static pressure in comparison?

If you run these on a fan controller say around 8V or 9V, they should be pushing around 80cfm each and I am told there is zero motor noise like some of the other fans out there.

[gmat]

I didn't try these. Do Sanyo Denki have flow charts somewhere ?

[Dr_Strangelove]

Originally Posted by gmat

I didn't try these. Do Sanyo Denki have flow charts somewhere ?

Here is what I could find so far: http://sanyodb.colle.co.jp/product_d...ing_dcfan.html


This is the actual fan: http://www.sanyo-denki.com/Products/...dPages/san.pdf

And I am getting this one 109R1212H1011 from a guy that is selling tons of them on another forum.

I know there is a cooling site that had them in a review somewhere, but I cannot find it for the life of me.

[BillA]

DS
so your choice was based on ?
sure NOT performance, did you even look at 38mm fan performance ?
why pick a 40db(A) fan ?
a truly poor choice, do not recommend such

a 'low flow resistance' rad (presumably single row and low fin density) in a noise sensitive app needs a low speed fan
2800 RPM is not low

[Dr_Strangelove]

Originally Posted by BillA

DS
so your choice was based on ?
sure NOT performance, did you even look at 38mm fan performance ?
why pick a 40db(A) fan ?
a truly poor choice, do not recommend such

a 'low flow resistance' rad (presumably single row and low fin density) in a noise sensitive app needs a low speed fan
2800 RPM is not low

My choice was based on the static pressure of the fan and the fact that there is no motor hum when using a fan controller. I do not plan on running this fan at full speed. I would assume that at 7V-9V this thing is closer to 30db than 40db.

Also, it is my understanding that the PA series has improved upon the HE tremeandously for low speed fans BUT they higher speed fans still have a performance lead.

I have not actually ordered them but I thought that this would work excellent with a PA120.3 plus shroud.

Do you see something inherently wrong with my logic here? Please let me know as I am makign a purchase in the next day or two.

[BillA]

a PA120.3 is 2 row rad (having higher airflow resistance than a single row)
a high speed fan at lower volts will not do as well as a fan designed for the lower speed;
if you are seeking also the better performance that a dual row offers then a higher speed is required
- how much additional speed is also affected by the fan thickness (thicker = lower RPM for similar performance = lower noise)

for testing 2 row rads I am now using the Panaflo FBA12G12M for performance (at 'reasonable' noise), and the Nexos D12SL-12 for low noise (at 'low' performance)
- not that these are the very best, they are available and well known which is good for testing

[Dr_Strangelove]

Ok that makes total sense BillA, sorry if I was not understanding your point before.

Here is what I found as far as spec for the Panaflo:
# Fan Size: 120 x 120 x 38mm
# Airflow – 86.5cfm
# Noise – 35.5dba
# Static Pressure - 4.80 mm-H20
# Rotation Speed - 2100 RPM
# Connector - tailed w/ 3 pin connector (no rpm sensoring).
# Bearing Type - Hydro Wave
# Power Consumption - 4.08 watt
# Current Draw - 0.45 amp
# Rated Voltage – 12 Volt
# Operating Voltage - 7 ~ 13.8 Volt
# Panaflow Part Number: FBA12G12M

And this is the spec for the Sanyo:
Part Number............................. 109R1212H1011
Manufacturer............................ Sanyo Denki Co., Ltd., Japan
Size, In........................................ 4.73" X 4.73" X 1.50"
Size, mm..................................... 120mm x 120mm x 38mm
Voltage........................................ 12 volts DC
Operating Range............................. 10.2 - 13.8
Current......................................... 0.52A
Watts............................................ 6.24
RPM ............................................. 2600
Flow CFM (Max)............................ 102.4 CFM / 2.9 cu metre[m3]
Noise (dBA).................................... 39.0
Bearing Type................................... Dual Ball Bearing
Material-Venturi............................... UL94V-0 Plastic
Material-Propeller............................. UL94V-0 Plastic
Life Expectancy-MTBF....................... 60,000 Hours


Now my deduction was that 39dbs at 12v with 2600rpm should drop to about 33-35dbs at 9V with around 2100-2300rpm.


My question to you BillA is "How do you feel about the noise of the Panaflos you are currently using?"

Here is what I have read on several sites selling this fan: "They are amazingly QUIET for a 120mm fan and in our opinion, are even better than the extremely popular PANAFLO FBK12G12LH we offer."

Now I have no experience with either of those fans so my point of reference is not exactly there.

[Dr_Strangelove]

Salkcin: I hope we aren't Hijacking your thread here. I have pretty much the same question as you so I figured let's get some good discussion going on about it. Hopefully this is not why you have't responded.

[BillA]

Operating Range............................. 10.2 - 13.8
tilt
look for 5V starting (yes, below spec for the Panaflo but works)
and +3db(A) is noticable (a noise/performance tradeoff)

pick one, look at the rest

[Dr_Strangelove]

Hmm....so below 10V these things won't work at all?

Now I think Noise/Performance tradeoff is important, but I am more looking for Performance. LOL...now you have me all confused on what to purchase

[BillA]

they may, do not assume
buy one of each, resell the one not used (not a big hit, and you will know)

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Dr_Strangelove

Hmm....so below 10V these things won't work at all?

afaik normally fans will run at a voltage lower than they need to start (so using a rheobus or similar you could (potentially) turn them down having started at higher voltage... but wiring them up for 7v (say) is out....

[Dr_Strangelove]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

afaik normally fans will run at a voltage lower than they need to start (so using a rheobus or similar you could (potentially) turn them down having started at higher voltage... but wiring them up for 7v (say) is out....

Gotcha, well I will be using a Nexus fan controller for these so I will probably just buy 3 of them for $33 shipped as that is a price I think I can afford to lose in case they suck. I think the risk is worth the potential gain, unless you guys see any other inherent problem with the fan other than what BillA pointed out about the Voltage.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Dr_Strangelove

Gotcha, well I will be using a Nexus fan controller for these so I will probably just buy 3 of them for $33 shipped as that is a price I think I can afford to lose in case they suck. I think the risk is worth the potential gain, unless you guys see any other inherent problem with the fan other than what BillA pointed out about the Voltage.

hmm - if you mean one of these:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles656/
then it appears to be a PWM unit (which pulses a 12V supply rather than reducing the voltage) - if so then starting voltage won't be an issue, but some fans are noisy under PWM..... so it'd be a good idea to look for peoples experiences of running the fan(s) this way....

[Etacovda]

I have a nexus controller here - its louder than the fans its attempting to quiet (buzzes) - so be aware that they're not all fantastic...