water/alchohal injection

[cybrsamurai]

anyone know about this stuff? It seems very similar to what we do except with no return loop. I also noticed that Becooling is selling an injection kit, seems like a good cross topic.

[mfpmax]

Yeah, been around for years, I spotted BeCoolings kit awhile ago and found it odd...guess someone there is into cars.

TurboBuick.com and Supraforums.com have loads of info on custom kits and the like.

Great way to reduce detonation...too bad it runs out and isn't a permanent solution...

[cybrsamurai]

do these systems typically run out of liquid quickly?

Seems like it would be easy enough to have the system attached to a sensor that only used it when the engine/turbo/whatever heats up. But then again I don't know much when it comes to cars. I would be more interested in it as a cooling mech than an octane booster.

[dantheman]

As far as I know, it is only a cooling mech. I am putting a kit on my CRX, and it is running about 10psi. It will only come on durring boost. Allows me to run much better timing, and I get cooler intake charges.

[cybrsamurai]

I think the octane boost comes with the alcohol. Its sort of an added bonus.

[dantheman]

Water is technicly a unlimited octane. I am running it though the windsheild washer fluid tank, and I put a bit of alchol in with it. Mainly to make sure everything is cleared out.

The tank lasts a while. You don't spray much in there, just enough to get a mist, and only while you are in full throttle. I have a LED that lights up when the tank gets low, and I just have to fill it back up.

[iroc409]

personally, i suggest getting a bigger or more efficient intercooler. i've never liked the idea of using water injection on a street car. just adds another variable for failure.

i could see it on a race car, where you're stretching the cars to the absolute limit constantly, and only on a track, but i've _rarely_ seen this used on track cars.

water cooling on a street car is generally just a bandage for doing it the right way.

[dantheman]

Originally posted by iroc409
personally, i suggest getting a bigger or more efficient intercooler. i've never liked the idea of using water injection on a street car. just adds another variable for failure.

i could see it on a race car, where you're stretching the cars to the absolute limit constantly, and only on a track, but i've _rarely_ seen this used on track cars.

water cooling on a street car is generally just a bandage for doing it the right way.

Of course the question stands then, what if you don't have a intercooler to begin with? Or can't fit a bigger one in?

The reason you don't see it on track cars mainly, is there is the threat that the tank might go dry, and it really isn't trusted by alot of people yet. For my CRX, it is helping wonders to cool down the intake charge from the supercharger. The car is both a streat car, and a "race" (high speed events down with the porshe club, road races and autocrosses) and it works great for me. I think you will be seeing more and more of this as time goes on.

[iroc409]

ingenuity my dear watson . you can always fit in an intercooler. although, generally speaking, intercooling isn't used very much with supercharging. i think this is why vortech started offering water injection, because they were too lazy to offer intercooled supercharger systems

is this a centrufigal (SP?) suptercharger, or a whipple or roots style blower? in most cases the whipple and roots styles do not use intercooling. i've seen it once i believe on a roots blower, and it probably wasn't as effective as it could be. but, basically it's relatively difficult to build an intercooler into a roots/whipple design.

but anyways, as far as an intercooler goes, yeah, i'm sure you can fit one in there. even greddy and those guys will build custom ones. they can make them pretty small, and still fairly efficient. you might check them out. but, good intercoolers are fairly expensive.

also, if you get too perplexed about mounting, check out a toyota celica alltrac (90-93, US version). i used to have one, and i loved that car. it was an awesome car. it had a fairly small intercooler in a pretty interesting location. if i'm not mistaken, the 2nd generation rx7's use the same mounting location as the toyota, but i can't remember right off the top of my head.

just something to think about. i'm not sure if you'll start seeing a bunch more of it, i don't know of a single car in town that has it here. but, i imagine if it does start to become popular, it's probably because it's typically an awful lot cheaper than a good intercooler. those can easily run $2000+.

i'm sure your car runs great with it, and i don't really blame you for using it. it's just, i personally wouldn't want it on my ride, except for maybe a secondary system for racing only. you didn't specify so i'm not going to judge, but i'd truly hate to have to drive a car on the street that would _depend_ on it for safe operation. takes the fun out of cruising

[cybrsamurai]

I use a JR supercharger I was thinking of using injection just for when I push the car. I wasn't really thinking of increasing the boost. Just using the injection as a method to help alliviate some strain on the engine. What are your thoughts? I wouldnt mind putting in an intercooler but Im hardly a mechanic and wouldnt have any idea how to install it or where to look to find one that would be more likely to fit.

[iroc409]

a jackson unit isn't going to be easy to install an intercooler on, from most applications i've seen. you're probably best to use water injection. my suggestion if it's a daily driver, just don't set the car up so you _need_ water injection on a daily basis. i'm not entirely sure about imports, but on v8's, 7-8psi is usually a good streetable number for non-intercooled superchargers. with intercooling and stuff, sometimes you can get up to 12, but probably best not to push it.

[cybrsamurai]

I'm running 8 PSI right now I dont seem to be having any heat issues and I have yet to hear it knock. I think I'm ok where I am but would like to have some way to cool it on those days that I feel like driving like a maniac (not increasing the PSI, but driving fast).

[mfpmax]

Originally posted by iroc409
ingenuity my dear watson . you can always fit in an intercooler. although, generally speaking, intercooling isn't used very much with supercharging. i think this is why vortech started offering water injection, because they were too lazy to offer intercooled supercharger systems

Both ATI and Vortech offer cooling solutions for their setups. ATI offers an air to air(which is why people started buying them up...they got better power with them compared to non-intercooled), and Vortech has a Air to Water setup. But there is pretty much an intercooler solution for any supercharger you can think of, including roots/whipple setups.

Originally posted by iroc409
is this a centrufigal (SP?) suptercharger, or a whipple or roots style blower? in most cases the whipple and roots styles do not use intercooling. i've seen it once i believe on a roots blower, and it probably wasn't as effective as it could be. but, basically it's relatively difficult to build an intercooler into a roots/whipple design.

Every Ford vehicle I know that has been supercharged has come with air to water intercooling, the Supercoupe, the Lightning, the 03 Cobra.

[iroc409]

yeah, that's kinda what i said, but on a roots style setup it is very uncommon due to its complexities. on those kind of setups, i've only seen it a couple times on large traditional roots setups, and a few of the whipple systems are now adding an easier way to install intercooling because they're starting to mount the 'charger off the intake manual like a traditional supercharger.

i personally have never seen an intercooler for a jackson unit, although i'm sure there are out there. i'm just saying it would be a somewhat difficult, looking at most of the installs and designs i've seen. that's not to say it hasn't been done, or can't be done.


i didn't know that about the ford stuff. i guess they didn't include that in the product information they used to give us about the vehicles when i used to sell them . but, i'm not questioning you there... i think i heard of a few scorpio cars that had that option from the factory.

edit: actually, i think we might be talking about 2 different things here.. when you say air to water, are you talking about the heat exchanger, or an actual water injection system? a lot of cars in the past (turbo) have used the water to air intercooler (and this system usually worked better than air to air), including the older toyota turbos (primarily overseas version). that's quite a bit different than water injection tho... i'm trying to remember the ford harley trucks, and i honestly don't remember seeing any heat exchanger on them, nor any literature we had talking about that, but i could of course be wrong

[mfpmax]

A heat exchanger is what i'm talking about...now...but both general achieve the same effect so...

The intercoolers for roots have been around for awhile, but since they add cost to the setup...and also look ugly as sin(add about 4-6 inches of height to a BDS 6-71 blower), general people don't buy them...or they don't think they will be making more than 8 PSI...

The JR setups can easily be adapted(maybe) for Air/Water setups...since there is a company that made their own supercharger kit based off of a similar design supercharger(Eaton M62), But that would add cost to the setup. But no, I don't think JR themselves have a kit for their own product...might in the future...

The Air/Water setups you aren't seeing on the Harely truck is because its underneath the supercharger directly inline with the air charge. Same goes for any of the other Modular engine cars with blowers. When you remove the Eaton M112 unit, you'll see a cavity filled with what looks like a funny radiator box thingie...has two lines coming out of it going towards the front. Thats the Air/Water heat exchanger Ford uses.
The Supercoupe though has an Air to Air unit instead. It has a flipped Supercharger that sends the air up to the front to the intercooler than back around to the intake.

[iroc409]

well, we're getting a little off subject, but i'll roll with it

first of all, i'm merely advocating an intercooling system over water injection, wether it be air to air or air to water. i just think it's a way better solution than water injection, much more reliable. especially if you're using the water to air coolers that use seperate cooling loops than the engine coolant. i've always thought it would work a lot better to use water that wasn't already 200 degrees to cool your air.

i understand how the air to water heat exchangers work on roots-ish blowers work, and where they're located. admittedly i know nothing about supercoupes, never really interested me, so i can't say anything about them. but, i've spent quite a bit of time around the harley trucks and such, and nobody ever mentioned the heat exchanger on them, nor did the product information about the harley trucks or the new cobras mention it either. it seems kindof odd, that would have been an excellent sales tool. but, i won't question you there, i imagine you know what you're talking about. i wish they would have told us that, or provided it somewhere. i never heard the mechanics talk about it either... but it really would have come in handy once in a while.

but anyways, my point is, intercooling by any method is generally going to be a better solution than water injection, of which i think you agree with.

[mfpmax]

no....I don't agree.

Both intercooling and Water injection.

50 PSI BABY!

Yes, I would only be concerned about intercooling unless I wanted to be extreme or I wanted a short cut...as thats how I see water injection...but it might not be...

And marketing is what decides wheater or not the intercooler gets mentioned...since the general public only cares about horsepower and buzz words...its not something they will mention.

Besides, the post had gone on long enough...a thread jack was required...and this thread jack is proably the world's first closely related thread jacking.

[iroc409]

lol.. truu. it was probably a fairly informative jacking

i'm not sure if you could run 50 psi without using alcohol. but, i would agree, in situations where you're running very high boost in a racing environment, intercooling and water injection would probably be a killer setup.

or, if you're drag racing, you can just use nitrous, it works a hell of a lot better than water injection

and actually, you could make the high-psi system live streetable, if you're careful. at least, on a turbo car. you could install an electronically controlled wastegate. set it at a fairly conservative number, say 8-10psi for the street, and when you want to race, you could kick in the water injection and jack up the boost to 14 or so. this would keep a pretty reliable car, and still have that extra fun when you want to race.

this is, of course assuming you're already using an intercooler

although, to me, i think the intercooler would be a good sales tool. the benefit to the customer is a cooler running engine, and more power more reliably. things they like to hear

but i'm very glad i don't sell cars anymore.

so, for the first post, install an intercooler and your car will be much happier

[dantheman]

Well, mine is a JRSC that has been totaly reworked to push 15 psi. It isn't worth it to intercool it, as it would be WAY to big of a mess. And with intake temps around 200, I needed something BAD. Water injection is perfect for my situation. I don't boost on the streets, and it only kicks on when I am over 6psi. There is a LED display on the dash, and it lets me know how things are, if there is a fauled injector, or my pressure is dropping.

I do agree, that if you can get an intercooler, then DO IT!! But, for a crx with the stock engine, there is not a supercharger kit out that is not roots by design. If you want a intercooler, you go turbo. For me, that wasn't really an option as I REFUSED to have lag at all. :P But thats a different story.

Basicly, if you can, get an intercooler. If you must get water injection. If you are just crazy (which most people here are) get both. It works! (saw a 20hp gain in my rx-7)

[cybrsamurai]

Ok where do I get an intercooler that I can install with my JR supercharger? I would love to make sure I'm not hurting my engine too much.

By the way the thread jacking is actually appreciated in this instance

[dantheman]

Originally posted by cybrsamurai
Ok where do I get an intercooler that I can install with my JR supercharger? I would love to make sure I'm not hurting my engine too much.

By the way the thread jacking is actually appreciated in this instance

There isn't a intercooler that is worth the money. LHT makes one that is OK I hear, but I am not about to pay a grand for just a intercooler that will lower my boost pressure that much. Stick with what ou have, and give it more fuel.

[mfpmax]

Originally posted by iroc409

although, to me, i think the intercooler would be a good sales tool. the benefit to the customer is a cooler running engine, and more power more reliably. things they like to hear

Yeah, the Japanese companies I think use it as part of marketing, the Mazda Speed Protege has the drawings of how the Turbo setup works and how it goes into the intercooler, but Ford doesn't do that for their Ford line...so clearly the Mazda marketing team doesn't have any ties with Ford directly.

Originally posted by dantheman

I do agree, that if you can get an intercooler, then DO IT!! But, for a crx with the stock engine, there is not a supercharger kit out that is not roots by design. If you want a intercooler, you go turbo. For me, that wasn't really an option as I REFUSED to have lag at all. :P But thats a different story.

If you have a CRX, you could always swap to an engine that is compatible with the Vortech Supercharger kit with Aftercooler.

As for turbo lag...there is no such thing if you know what you're doing. A B-series engine with a T3/T4 setup would not have much of any lag....or even better, a T25 turbo...instant boost. But yes, supercharger(roots), give great low end power...but high end would be difficult since the design of roots style superchargers does not lend to that.

Besides, Carrol Shelby said it best...If you got lag, you're not driving right...

Originally posted by cybrsamurai
Ok where do I get an intercooler that I can install with my JR supercharger? I would love to make sure I'm not hurting my engine too much.

By the way the thread jacking is actually appreciated in this instance

http://www.theoldone.com/

They sell the intercooled roots blower...but I think you may have to sell your JR setup.

[dantheman]

Originally posted by mfpmax



If you have a CRX, you could always swap to an engine that is compatible with the Vortech Supercharger kit with Aftercooler.

As for turbo lag...there is no such thing if you know what you're doing. A B-series engine with a T3/T4 setup would not have much of any lag....or even better, a T25 turbo...instant boost. But yes, supercharger(roots), give great low end power...but high end would be difficult since the design of roots style superchargers does not lend to that.

Besides, Carrol Shelby said it best...If you got lag, you're not driving right...



http://www.theoldone.com/

They sell the intercooled roots blower...but I think you may have to sell your JR setup.

Endyn (the old one) doesn't sell a sueprcharger yet. Read the site. They do make the ones that modified mine to push 15 psi though. GREAT little thing.

I don't want to go turbo or go with a different engine. I like my SOHC power! Soon to have a different head that is ported and milled, Cam, springs, oversize valves, ect. The reason Idon't like going with other engines, is that it throws off the weight distrabution in the crx. I have already corner weighted it for autocrosses, and I really don't want to do that again. (PITA!!)

The Turbo wouldn't really work that great for me, as I love the way the supercharger makes it feal like I have a much larger engine then I really do. It fits my driving style.

[mfpmax]

Well I saw a post on Honda-Tech showing off the kit, figured they were being sold by now...but I can't navigate that site worth a damn

Weight...yeah, especially if you autocross...but man...This one guy dropped a Type R(B18C5 for the peanut gallery) into his like...94 Hatch or something...he spun out once and still got a good time, he was a great driver and one with his car.

Plus a turbo can be a bad thing in AutoX, so you've got the right setup...

[iroc409]

you can _always_ make a centrufigal 'charger work in a car... and since those are versy similar to a turob setup (without the exhaust), you can fairly easily plumb in an intercooler

you could buy just the unit from ati or something, and put in a custom install yourself... that would be fairly killer. i thought about getting one myself, but i'm not convinced the power gains and reliability losses are really worth the money. but, we'll see.