FluidXP listening?

[MDaniel]

I'm by NO means trying to get the flaming started back up. I just wanted to point out that D-Tek is now selling the stuff for $24.99. Maybe FluidXP is listening to us about the high costs. I'm considering trying it now.

Or, D-Tek wasn't selling any and they lowered the price.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by MDaniel

I'm by NO means trying to get the flaming started back up. I just wanted to point out that D-Tek is now selling the stuff for $24.99. Maybe FluidXP is listening to us about the high costs. I'm considering trying it now.

Or, D-Tek wasn't selling any and they lowered the price.

That is for 32 ounces or 1/2 gallon? Still way to expensive.

Might be more of a consideration once they start selling those anodized aluminum pumps. http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...176#post112176

[AngryAlpaca]

$25... Still a ways to go until it gets mainstream, but this is a big (37.5%) step. Dtek was selling it for 40 dollars a unit.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

$25... Still a ways to go until it gets mainstream, but this is a big (37.5%) step. Dtek was selling it for 40 dollars a unit.

and the manufacturer wanted 50...

basically they are now selling at the same cost/floz as the (US) gallon was...

[kronchev]

a gallon of distilled water costs me $2. Distilled water > FluidXP

[Acidshock]

Well I have had this stuff for a while now (about a little more than a year, I originally received it as a promo to test for Integrity, occasionally get parts there) and have been recommending it to friends. One just recently linked me to the old thread. After reading the thread I must say people seem a bit pessimistic about it, which I certainly dont blame people as I was the EXACT same way at first. I must say though that the only problem I have seen with it is that I lose 1 degree celsius off of my cooling ability.

I thought I might share my experience with the fluid, take it, leave it, discuss it, but please dont flame it I am just sharing. Now I gotta say this stuff is a lot slimier then DI water. Also if I recall DI water will gain ions when exposed to open atmosphere or a new environment with contaminents thus making it conductive. So if it spills and you dont notice it you COULD run the risk of a hardware failure. Also if you add anything into the DI water to kill bacteria, or cool better(watter wetter) that will most likely make the coolant conductive. Furthermore water does form buildups, etc over time this stuff hasnt at all.

When I initially was testing this fluid I was of course pessimistic as well and was looking to downplay it. So initally I told integrity I wanted to talk to whoever their contact was. They put me in touch with Mike, which I noticed was posting here as well. I asked him about the fluid gaining ions, and he responded that there was a chemical started with a "D" I think that made a slimey coat around the chemical forming a barrier so that the fluid wouldnt absorb ions he also mentioned how the coolant wouldnt eat at any plastics. While talking about the plastics he mentioned a scenario that actually happened in my first rig. After using DI water mixed with some watter wetter I had one of my tubes(that was clamped really tightly!) pop off and soaked my carpet pink. Well what happened is that the stuff ate at my tubing and made the tubing sorta gummy, and the tubing lost its grip around the nipple of the water block.

Also one thing with DI water is that the stuff you buy at the store is pretty much filtered water.. Anyone who says otherwise probably isnt informed well. So if you want true DI you need to get it labgrade(0-10 Microsiemens).. meaning from complex filtering(no.. not your store bought RO system with a DI filter) This stuff will often run you around 10.00 if you buy only a gallon DEPENDING on the lab unless you buy in bulk(After all they dont want to waist their time on someone who is only going to buy 3.00 worth of water).. Plus if the lab isnt near your going to have to ship it..

Anyways as for my opinion this stuff is pretty cool I have ran it for a little more then a year and havent needed to clean my system out, or change the coolant. When I need to work on the system I just drain the stuff into the bottle it came with and then put it back into the system. A 32 oz bottle is more then enough to fill an average resevoir too, fills my current dual 3.5 fine. I have also looked for algae and havent seen any growth, it even killed the a hard to get spot(little dot) that was in my system. Also after seeing these posts on the forum I talked to Mike again and asked him about mixing this stuff with alcohol and he said it would work but the stuff wouldnt protect the plastics since alcohol can dry out plastics.


Anyways that my experience and thats why I like the fluid. Dont flame me im just sharing, if you dont want to hear it thats cool just skip to the next post or something.

Also I must say that the 25.00 is probably worth it as you will most likely exceed that over there period of time the fluid will last. Also from what I understand Integrity is the sol distributor of that stuff and they are trying to get resellers they said last time I talked to em(4 months ago) so the fact that other people are selling it cheaper doesnt suprise me.. You dont undercut your customers prices.

A tech at integrity also had a good analogy, he said it reminded him of slick 50 for your car, yeah it costs more then regular oil but you dont nearly change it as much.

[gone_fishin]

Nice try Mr. one post.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by acidshock

A tech at integrity also had a good analogy, he said it reminded him of slick 50 for your car, yeah it costs more then regular oil but you dont nearly change it as much.

I'm surprised that anyone there is willing to, even in a drain interval metaphor, be willing to mention their product and Slick50 in the same breath.
This isn't a bike/car/performance forum, so I'll just suggest doing a web search for Slick50 and see what sorts of comments you run into.

[bigben2k]

Sorry, I still don't see it. Didn't you have hose clamps?

I received the data from Mike, but it doesn't explain my original question: what exactly prevents the glycol-water solution to loose its pH level, as Brian indicated in his article on this site, which is an indication that it's time to change it, which ought to be in ~6 months?

(For those interested, the data is available in the WBTA forums.)

[pHaestus]

the anticorrosive properties of diols come from them having alcohol funtional groups which will do the following reaction in water:

R-OH -> R-O- + H+

For ethylene glycol the pH this happens is around 11-12 I think (making antifreeze a fairly basic additive). Now what happens when you have Ca2+ or Cu2+ or Al3+ in your system? It reacts with diols (meaning 2 alcohol groups per molecule) like this:

R-OH + Cu2+ -> R-OCu+ + H+
R-OCu+ + R-OH -> R-O-Cu-O-R + H+

See the Cu is chelated by the two groups of the diol making it unreactive with respect to reacting with aluminum in the system. You could easily write the same reaction for diol-aluminum interactions. Note that two protons are generated by this reaction; as the diol complexes the metal ions in solution it lowers solution pH too.

I assume if this fluidXP stuff is pH7 then it has a fairly high concentration of some buffer or other that keeps pH at neutral.

[bigben2k]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

...
I assume if this fluidXP stuff is pH7 then it has a fairly high concentration of some buffer or other that keeps pH at neutral.

Exactly (thank you M. chemist-in-hiding! ).

I just want to know what the buffering solution is made up of, and how long one can expect it to last, which is the basis of the claim.

[Acidshock]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

Nice try Mr. one post.

Everyone has to start somewhere....

AS for the hose clamps, yeah I did.. The combination of heat and the watter wetter ate at the decayed the plastic from the inside out I actually had to cut and replace the end as it had turned into what can almost be described as a gummy plastic..

[pHaestus]

You guys are missing the interesting bit about this fluidXP stuff anyway. Look at the posted boiling point (99.44C). What solute when added to a solvent lowers its boiling point? Only volatile ones (ethyl alcohol would be an example). I am not seeing anything volatile or with a lower boiling point than water in the ingredients so I am a bit confused.

How the stuff works though is clear: a lower density, lower boiling point alcohol balances out the increase in density and viscosity of using propylene glycol. So you are getting the performance of your coolant back closer to that of water from a thermal conductivity and viscosity standpoint. Clever. Propylene glycol IS a better solution for coolant because it's safe for flushing and shouldn't be a problem for kids. Cheap in bulk too (chemical stores).

[Butcher]

Dunno if I'd call propylene glycol "safe", there's definite questions over it's long-term effects on health. Safer than most other additives though.

Personally, I'm not that worried - I don't have kids, my hoses haven't suddenly wasted away from water wetter or any other addivitves (mind you I don't use the cheapest tubing in the shop). Nor have my hose clamps suddenly snapped in half allowing the hoses to work loose. I've had only one leak on an installed system, and that was evident immediately so the system wasn't on. I corrected the issue before it became a problem.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

...a lower density, lower boiling point alcohol balances out the increase...

All issues of alcohols and plastics aside, doesn't this increase vapor pressure, which means the mixture will change over time unless it's in a sealed and not-porous-to-alcohol system.
Or is there some way to "bind" the alcohol in solution? Sorry if this is an "obvious" question - never studied chemistry.

[pHaestus]

It's a common food additive; ethylene glycol is a known animal poison. Relatively speaking it's a much better additive.

You know this stuff is probably just deicing solution diluted by some large amount right? I see no reason to call it snake oil though as the guy clearly states he's a retired NASA engineer that adapted their deicing chemicals to cooling electronics. The rationale for the chemicals involved makes perfect sense to me. I don't really see the big deal about electrical conductivity though. I personally dont allow my rig to leak so getting components wet doesn't scare me and isn't worth a premium. Getting better performance out of glycol coolant IS worthwhile though and so I find this an interesting solution (though I bet I can do it for a small fraction of the cost in my lab). I have deionized water and access to reagent greade chemicals in bulk though...

[kronchev]

"After using DI water mixed with some watter wetter I had one of my tubes(that was clamped really tightly!) pop off and soaked my carpet pink. Well what happened is that the stuff ate at my tubing and made the tubing sorta gummy, and the tubing lost its grip around the nipple of the water block."

Um..unpossible. Water wetter is designed to NOT eat plastic tubing, or to loosten it at all. User error, you got what you deserved if it got everywhere.

also i have no problem with replacing water. does ANYONE here, at a DIY forum, honestly have a problem with draining and refilling a system? I would hope NOT. we can bother to take the 10 minutes to drain and refil because its worth it to save so much over that stuff. oh and a slimy layer wouldnt only prevent the water from gaining ions, it would also impede heat transfer. but theyve already admitted it works worse than plain water.


what really pisses me off is how misleading they are to people. i had one friend whose new to WC actually say "i want fluidXP+ because it doesnt have any water in it so its safer." now i realize hes probabily not great at chemistry if he even remembers any but just damn. i asked a chem engineering friend of the family of dihydrogen oxide was the real thing to call water and he said that it sounded really shady to call it that on the bottle.

[gone_fishin]

Originally Posted by Acidshock

Everyone has to start somewhere....

AS for the hose clamps, yeah I did.. The combination of heat and the watter wetter ate at the decayed the plastic from the inside out I actually had to cut and replace the end as it had turned into what can almost be described as a gummy plastic..

At $25 a quart...that's still $100 a gallon, LOL. 1000% markup compared to your analogy of buying a single gallon of lab grade DI water for $10.

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by Acidshock

Everyone has to start somewhere....

AS for the hose clamps, yeah I did.. The combination of heat and the watter wetter ate at the decayed the plastic from the inside out I actually had to cut and replace the end as it had turned into what can almost be described as a gummy plastic..

WATER WETTER DOES NOT EAT PLASTIC. it is designed to NOT eat plastic.

[*klonk*]

total ripoff heh - nice try though

and hey, 'unpossible' is one of my favorite words too :P

[Acidshock]

Originally Posted by kronchev

"After using DI water mixed with some watter wetter I had one of my tubes(that was clamped really tightly!) pop off and soaked my carpet pink. Well what happened is that the stuff ate at my tubing and made the tubing sorta gummy, and the tubing lost its grip around the nipple of the water block."

Um..unpossible. Water wetter is designed to NOT eat plastic tubing, or to loosten it at all. User error, you got what you deserved if it got everywhere.

also i have no problem with replacing water. does ANYONE here, at a DIY forum, honestly have a problem with draining and refilling a system? I would hope NOT. we can bother to take the 10 minutes to drain and refil because its worth it to save so much over that stuff. oh and a slimy layer wouldnt only prevent the water from gaining ions, it would also impede heat transfer. but theyve already admitted it works worse than plain water.


what really pisses me off is how misleading they are to people. i had one friend whose new to WC actually say "i want fluidXP+ because it doesnt have any water in it so its safer." now i realize hes probabily not great at chemistry if he even remembers any but just damn. i asked a chem engineering friend of the family of dihydrogen oxide was the real thing to call water and he said that it sounded really shady to call it that on the bottle.

Man dont be such a troll sure be constructive, you can add your critique, etc. but be cool about it man. I am not trying to start a flame war but trying discuss the material.


Actually water wetter will both eat your plastic tubes and cause them to loosen. It is designed for used with a lot more durable tubing used in cars, most of the time made out of a higher grade rubber but heck you still have to change your coolant hoses cause they DO decay and get dryed out, etc.. Check out the PH and the friction resistance, etc. on their tech spec. http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf. Water wetter also adds a bunch of metals to your system which arent necessarily a good thing. Another side not is that the fluid xp is non toxic compared to watter wetter. That was another significant selling point to me as I have animals in my house and when that tube popped off my carpet was soaked with the stuff. Last thing I need is an animal licking it up.

As far as them supposedly misleading people, I havent seen them say that but if they did thats messed up. I did however do a search based upon what I saw on the last thread and looked for keywords, dihydrogen oxide and msds also did dyhydrogen oxide and ingredients and it comes up in a lot of products. Mainly under MSDS which is what the review guys got their info from since the only thing that was printed on the bottles ive seen both in review and the one I own is a logo for fluid XP and the lab that manufacturered it.


Gone_fishing: Thanks for catching that one, wasnt thinking about the DI comming in gallons but also people rarely use a whole gallon to fill their system, not like people dont but very rarely as a gallon is rather excessive and wasteful. They probably use 32-48 oz usually. In which case you can compare the numbers. Also if your going to run say a 50/50 mix or 30/70 mix of water wetter that can get sorta costly.

[Butcher]

Originally Posted by Acidshock

Actually water wetter will both eat your plastic tubes and cause them to loosen.

Rather a sweeping statement don't you think? Given the huge variety of plastics commonly used for tubing, I don't know how you can so categorically state that it will eat any plastic tubing.
Personally, I've not had any issues with my tubing with water wetter, my original cheap vinyl lasted over a year with no signs of corrosion due to water wetter. I currently use clearflex 60 and it's not showing any signs of corrosion either. Given the currently recommended tubing types are cleaflex or tygon (which is actually less likely to be attacked), I think your statement is at best misleading, if not completely false.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Acidshock

not like people dont but very rarely as a gallon is rather excessive and wasteful.

Dude it is a gallon of water ($.50 , drink the rest eh?). As for lab grade, whatever..... Also water cannot be wasted. It will return back into the earth one way or another. Learned that in 4th grade. Just dump the rest or store it.

[syncmaster]

You know whats funny I see the same people here making issues about this product from the last thread. What I dont understand is what the F**k is the big deal about what it dosen't do and what it does do. If you have a use for it and it fits your needs then great buy it... If it dosent fit your needs then dont buy it and STFU and let the people that are intrested in it and have a use for it ask the questions... Just my .02

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by syncmaster

You know whats funny I see the same people here making issues about this product from the last thread. What I dont understand is what the F**k is the big deal about what it dosen't do and what it does do. If you have a use for it and it fits your needs then great buy it... If it dosent fit your needs then dont buy it and STFU and let the people that are intrested in it and have a use for it ask the questions... Just my .02

the people who are interested in it are only because of the misleading info that is associated with it. i know its a crime to try to convince people not to make a bad decision but we here at pro/forums are rebels.