NeXXoS HP Pro just landed in my lap - Page 2

Cathar · 07-13-2004, 06:44 PM

Okay, here are the base pictures. First is a flash-mode picture. Second is a macro-mode with no-flash. Third is a distance zoom-in mode with no flash.

JayDee116, in your professional opinion as a machinists, would you agree that my assessment/opinion of how the base-plate was machined was reasonable?

Bill, I would so have loved for you to put this one under your chromatic flats.

firtol88 · 07-13-2004, 06:57 PM

The scarriest part to me is the initial response, not the usual oops you must have gotten a bad block, this may just be the norm for their equipment.

BillA · 07-13-2004, 06:58 PM

wow
those fellows have no brains,
NEVER pick a fight you cannot win

hey, try this
Swiftech would refinish any wb having such a surface proir to shipment.
and this morning I ordered the relapping of 300 wbs for EXACTLY this reason, visible fly cutting tool marks ($1000 loss !)

it will be interesting to find out what this co's bp inspection stds are

pHaestus · 07-13-2004, 07:12 PM

Jesus Bill you must be shooting for a record number of lawsuits! Did L3D's legal counsel not teach you some manners? I get paid in CAD so I can't afford to say anything about a company that traffics in Euros...

AngryAlpaca · 07-13-2004, 07:13 PM

That's a horrible job of lapping. Ok, so here's the thing, the block's base looks like it's been machined flat with a fly-cutter, and then electroplated with copper for a nice shiny finish, mostly covering the fly-cut machine marks, but still leaving that tell-tale ripple effect that fly-cut machining has. In short that would be a very cheap method to achieve a nice "mirror" finish - but not exactly flat. Independent consumer here. I've got a problem and you can't silence me with lawsuits! (In fact, I don't think you can find me...)

Cathar · 07-13-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

wow
those fellows have no brains,
NEVER pick a fight you cannot win

Yes, by threatening me with legal action, I am then forced to back up my statements with incontrovertible visual evidence.

The pictures do not lie. I was originally not going to publish any pictures of the base-plate out of respect for Alphacool because I felt that could be seen as being aggressive.

However, since they are the aggressors, I am allowed to respond, and I really do think that the pictures speak for themselves.

I think Alphacool should've originally been thankful that all I posted was my personal opinion, rather than forcing my hand to post actual pictures of what I was talking about.

quicksilverXP · 07-13-2004, 07:23 PM

That's odd. Mine looks nothing that and is completely flat.... similar to the SF from PolarFlo. I'm sure of it because I too took macro pictures from the same angles and it's perfectly flat. Perhaps it indeed was one bad block or the original user somehoe tampered with it ( I doubt it). Maybe their just afraid of the mighty Cathar critiquing it, I know I would be.

Cathar · 07-13-2004, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksilverXP

That's odd. Mine looks nothing that and is completely flat.... similar to the SF from PolarFlo. I'm sure of it because I too took macro pictures from the same angles and it's perfectly flat. Perhaps it indeed was one bad block or the original user somehoe tampered with it ( I doubt it). Maybe their just afraid of the mighty Cathar critiquing it, I know I would be.

Picture taken from kaltmacher.de. You can see the same rippling distortion that I had in the picture (very noticable at the edges of the camera, and the hair of the photographer).

IMPORTANT UPDATE:

I was told that this block was an HP Pro, but it is really just a plain HP after doing some more research. I have edited all my posts to reflect that this is the regular HP block that I have here.

It may be that with the Pro version of the block that this issue is fixed? :shrug:

I personally don't wish to comment too much further, lest people accidentally mistake what is clearly opined conjecture for statements of fact.

Tempus · 07-13-2004, 07:48 PM

Pics look pretty definative.

Is there any other reasonable way that ripple can occur? Thermal stress? Just plain ole bad (layered) electroplating? anything?

jaydee · 07-13-2004, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar

JayDee116, in your professional opinion as a machinists, would you agree that my assessment/opinion of how the base-plate was machined was reasonable?

I would say you were very generous in your comments. Not sure if their fly cutter was broken, dull or off balanced (or all the above) but my POS Sherline mill can make a base smoother and flatter than that with a 3/8" endmill. :shrug: Ugly and disappointing being their main thing is supposed to be quality.

EDIT: Well my comments still stand on this version of the block...

BillA · 07-13-2004, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauldenton

read as topo ?? - can you translate please :shrug:

topo is slang for topographical map, the contour lines have the same basis (height) as the optical interference lines

it is sometimes tricky to determine high from low

pHaestus · 07-13-2004, 08:25 PM

A bad situation really. AlphaCool could have just offered to send me a wb or two for testing direct from them if they are reading the forums so closely. No need to threaten legal action and stir up bad feelings. I guess if they have no intention of entering the US market though that perhaps they'd get more mileage out of damaging your rep than they would from a thorough review from me.

jaydee · 07-13-2004, 08:34 PM

Their to good to send their stuff here? or are they afraid of better testing? Water block racism maybe?

I would suggest they don't care about the US market but then they wouldn't be reading this thread...

nigelyuen · 07-13-2004, 08:41 PM

my is totally flat like a mirror
just like this one
maybe you got a bad block there

edit: this one is mine, dont think they bother lapping

Cathar · 07-13-2004, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nigelyuen

my is totally flat like a mirror
just like this one
maybe you got a bad block there

Who wants to tell him?

There's shiny with rippling distortion, like the picture you showed, and then there's shiny and flat.

Tell me if you can't pick the clear difference between the picture you just showed, and the following:

You can't even make out the large font writing on the camera clearly. In my picture you can still make out small font writing through 2 reflections.

Still, I couldn't say that they were really flat, but they are not visually distorting anywhere near as bad as your picture is displaying.

BillA · 07-13-2004, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaestus

A bad situation really. AlphaCool could have just offered to send me a wb or two for testing direct from them if they are reading the forums so closely. No need to threaten legal action and stir up bad feelings. I guess if they have no intention of entering the US market though that perhaps they'd get more mileage out of damaging your rep than they would from a thorough review from me.

but they confused the tail with the dog,
forgot that dogs run in packs,
and most importantly "If you can't bite, don't growl."

they are toothless, it is a bad finish

I will

nigelyuen
'flat' means nothing at all without some numerical definition
mirrors are not flat, suggest you say reflective instead of flat
I agree your wb's bp is reflective, how flat it may be is unknown until it is measured

AngryAlpaca · 07-13-2004, 08:52 PM

Tell him what? That the camera in the first one curves and that the second one is obviously lapped?

Cathar · 07-13-2004, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Tell him what? That the camera in the first one curves and that the second one is obviously lapped?

Read my edit above.

AngryAlpaca · 07-13-2004, 08:58 PM

Yeah I saw that after I posted.

nigelyuen · 07-13-2004, 09:33 PM

the second pic is 1ahv2
the first one is alpahcool
1ahv2 didnt lap their block at all, iam thinking of doing it myself

cathar: for a moment i thought you put 2 mirrors there, but i looked again and its a waterblock

Cathar · 07-13-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nigelyuen

i looked again and its a waterblock

Two waterblocks actually.

firtol88 · 07-13-2004, 11:24 PM

I couldn't care less what their hardware looks like at this point, I just don't like the litigious.

Cathar · 07-14-2004, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firtol88

I couldn't care less what their hardware looks like at this point, I just don't like the litigious.

Don't worry about it. I get a threat to be sued almost monthly. A number of people seem to labour under the illusion that I am somehow in monetary competition with them, when I am not. A number of people seem to think that I am malicious whenever I simply state what I see, but I am not.

My only concern is, was, and always has been, to push waterblock cooling technology. I only sell blocks to cover the costs of research, but that is essentially all that I make out of it, and I don't look to make more than that. It's worth repeating again that I make more money per week in my real job than I've made in two years in making blocks, and that money is presently dwindling as we speak.

Heck, it often goes through my mind if I should ever make a publically available waterblock ever again. Once I complete my Storm research, the money will have run out and I will have what I wanted to build for myself, so why should I bother selling blocks? To make a few measly dollars? Even if I made US$20K after selling 2000 blocks, it'd still be a relative pittance to me, and certainly a lot more bother than I want to go to.

My comments are only ever that of a forum member. If I believed that another block was superior to something I could do, I would ring my machinists that minute and tell them to stop anything they were doing for me, I'd settle the bill, and walk away.

For me, it's not about market share, or sales, or money, or any other of the more commercially oriented factors that drive real waterblock companies. To describe what I am, I would guess that "enthusiast researcher" would probably be the best fit, and I really do wish that some people would grasp that concept.

I am not out to steal anyone's market share, or to discredit their products in order to boost my sales. I don't really care about my sales. If making in the vicinity of 300 blocks over a period of 2 years is considered a threat to anyone's market share, then those people have got a lot more than me to worry about. ~300 blocks is a piss in the world-wide waterblock market-place ocean. I stopped making Cascade blocks because I couldn't be bothered with making any more of them once I had covered my costs.

I just state what I see when something passes my way. Just as would any other forum goer.

nigelyuen · 07-14-2004, 01:57 AM

is the cascade better than the alphacool block?
is cascade ss a silver base block?

quicksilverXP · 07-14-2004, 02:06 AM

I'm still having trouble seeing that ripple effect in my block. I've taken pics from several angles, and I also get the same reflection as you Cathar, although I don't have two of the same blocks to produce the same effect (I can read the writing off a USPS receipt perfectly, without any ripply features, such as hazy words. I know what flat is.... I've lapped many heatsinks before and bad Dtek Whitewater blocks (the first batches). Maybe I'm blind. I do have a brand new HP Pro from Snt-systems.com.

Cathar · 07-14-2004, 03:25 AM

This post has been edited based on information that has come to light:

Taner from AlphaCool called me. It is apparant that I do have an AlphaCool NeXXoS HP here, but Taner informs me that the lapping quality is not indicative of typical quality.

There has been some backwards and forwards confusion as to the identity of this block, partly caused by it not coming directly from AlphaCool. AlphaCool have offered to send a couple of their latest blocks to confirm that their base lapping quality is better than that shown on the block that I have here.

quicksilverXP · 07-14-2004, 03:43 AM

Here's a pic of mine. Look way different than that block. The outside pocket (or whatever you wanna call it) is different.

Silent Bob · 07-14-2004, 03:51 AM

No need to be naive here, Cathar.

The Alphacool HP waterblock has a 5mm baseplate thickness:

http://www.watercoolplanet.de/index....P%20Sockel%20A

The Alphacool HP Pro waterblock has a 3mm baseplate thickness:

http://www.watercoolplanet.de/index....xoS%20HP%20Pro

What you have there is a Alphacool HP waterblock! Maybe some defective unit, or maybe they updated their lapping methods recently.

Pics of my friend´s HP:

Cathar · 07-14-2004, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksilverXP

Here's a pic of mine. Look way different than that block. The outside pocket (or whatever you wanna call it) is different.

That's the HP Pro that you have there.

Compare the pictures of the block that I have to the AlphaCool NeXXoS HP, which you can see reviewed at KaltMacher here:

http://www.kaltmacher.de/lartikel266...87781c285.html

I think you can agree that they look near identical. The mounting kit that I have here even looks the same as the AlphaCool kit.

Cathar · 07-14-2004, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Bob

No need to be naive here, Cathar.

The Alphacool HP waterblock has a 5mm baseplate thickness:

Hmmm - Taner (AlphaCool) assured me on the phone that there were no 5mm thick AlphaCool NeXXoS HP's (non-pro).

The block that I have here even has the exact same brand of allen-key nuts as in the picture of your friend's block.

Am very confused now.

07-13-2004, 06:57 PM	#32
firtol88 Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: BRLA Posts: 151	The scarriest part to me is the initial response, not the usual oops you must have gotten a bad block, this may just be the norm for their equipment. __________________ - - In this corner representing the democrats... Flipper

07-13-2004, 07:12 PM	#34
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	Jesus Bill you must be shooting for a record number of lawsuits! Did L3D's legal counsel not teach you some manners? I get paid in CAD so I can't afford to say anything about a company that traffics in Euros... __________________ Getting paid like a biker with the best crank... -MF DOOM

07-13-2004, 07:48 PM	#39
Tempus Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 456	Pics look pretty definative. Is there any other reasonable way that ripple can occur? Thermal stress? Just plain ole bad (layered) electroplating? anything? __________________ Thou art God.

07-13-2004, 08:25 PM	#42
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	A bad situation really. AlphaCool could have just offered to send me a wb or two for testing direct from them if they are reading the forums so closely. No need to threaten legal action and stir up bad feelings. I guess if they have no intention of entering the US market though that perhaps they'd get more mileage out of damaging your rep than they would from a thorough review from me. __________________ Getting paid like a biker with the best crank... -MF DOOM

07-13-2004, 08:41 PM	#44
nigelyuen Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: HONG KONG Posts: 56	my is totally flat like a mirror just like this one maybe you got a bad block there edit: this one is mine, dont think they bother lapping __________________ http://ny.no-ip.com/wtbanner.png Last edited by nigelyuen; 07-13-2004 at 08:47 PM.

07-13-2004, 06:44 PM	#31
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	Okay, here are the base pictures. First is a flash-mode picture. Second is a macro-mode with no-flash. Third is a distance zoom-in mode with no flash. JayDee116, in your professional opinion as a machinists, would you agree that my assessment/opinion of how the base-plate was machined was reasonable? Bill, I would so have loved for you to put this one under your chromatic flats.

07-13-2004, 06:58 PM	#33
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	wow those fellows have no brains, NEVER pick a fight you cannot win hey, try this Swiftech would refinish any wb having such a surface proir to shipment. and this morning I ordered the relapping of 300 wbs for EXACTLY this reason, visible fly cutting tool marks ($1000 loss !) it will be interesting to find out what this co's bp inspection stds are

07-13-2004, 07:13 PM	#35
AngryAlpaca Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 631	That's a horrible job of lapping. Ok, so here's the thing, the block's base looks like it's been machined flat with a fly-cutter, and then electroplated with copper for a nice shiny finish, mostly covering the fly-cut machine marks, but still leaving that tell-tale ripple effect that fly-cut machining has. In short that would be a very cheap method to achieve a nice "mirror" finish - but not exactly flat. Independent consumer here. I've got a problem and you can't silence me with lawsuits! (In fact, I don't think you can find me...)

07-13-2004, 07:23 PM	#37
quicksilverXP Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Irvine Posts: 58	That's odd. Mine looks nothing that and is completely flat.... similar to the SF from PolarFlo. I'm sure of it because I too took macro pictures from the same angles and it's perfectly flat. Perhaps it indeed was one bad block or the original user somehoe tampered with it ( I doubt it). Maybe their just afraid of the mighty Cathar critiquing it, I know I would be.

07-13-2004, 08:34 PM	#43
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Their to good to send their stuff here? or are they afraid of better testing? Water block racism maybe? I would suggest they don't care about the US market but then they wouldn't be reading this thread...

07-13-2004, 08:52 PM	#47
AngryAlpaca Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 631	Tell him what? That the camera in the first one curves and that the second one is obviously lapped?

07-13-2004, 08:58 PM	#49
AngryAlpaca Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 631	Yeah I saw that after I posted.

07-13-2004, 09:33 PM	#50
nigelyuen Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: HONG KONG Posts: 56	the second pic is 1ahv2 the first one is alpahcool 1ahv2 didnt lap their block at all, iam thinking of doing it myself cathar: for a moment i thought you put 2 mirrors there, but i looked again and its a waterblock __________________ http://ny.no-ip.com/wtbanner.png

07-13-2004, 11:24 PM	#52
firtol88 Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: BRLA Posts: 151	I couldn't care less what their hardware looks like at this point, I just don't like the litigious. __________________ - - In this corner representing the democrats... Flipper

07-14-2004, 01:57 AM	#54
nigelyuen Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: HONG KONG Posts: 56	is the cascade better than the alphacool block? is cascade ss a silver base block? __________________ http://ny.no-ip.com/wtbanner.png

07-14-2004, 02:06 AM	#55
quicksilverXP Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Irvine Posts: 58	I'm still having trouble seeing that ripple effect in my block. I've taken pics from several angles, and I also get the same reflection as you Cathar, although I don't have two of the same blocks to produce the same effect (I can read the writing off a USPS receipt perfectly, without any ripply features, such as hazy words. I know what flat is.... I've lapped many heatsinks before and bad Dtek Whitewater blocks (the first batches). Maybe I'm blind. I do have a brand new HP Pro from Snt-systems.com.

07-14-2004, 03:25 AM	#56
Cathar Thermophile Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,538	This post has been edited based on information that has come to light: Taner from AlphaCool called me. It is apparant that I do have an AlphaCool NeXXoS HP here, but Taner informs me that the lapping quality is not indicative of typical quality. There has been some backwards and forwards confusion as to the identity of this block, partly caused by it not coming directly from AlphaCool. AlphaCool have offered to send a couple of their latest blocks to confirm that their base lapping quality is better than that shown on the block that I have here. Last edited by Cathar; 07-14-2004 at 04:22 AM.

07-14-2004, 03:43 AM	#57
quicksilverXP Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Irvine Posts: 58	Here's a pic of mine. Look way different than that block. The outside pocket (or whatever you wanna call it) is different.

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