So... they were in our country? Or we were in theirs? Oh, wait, we were peacekeepers protecting the legitimate government, right?
You realize that going into Iraq with no exit strategy is going to make about as much sense, thirty years from now, when it's purely academic to that generation?

As far as free fire zones, based on what I got from friends who had been there, in a zone like that, not only was anyone considered to be hostile, but recon was done through firepower - for instance, if there was a bush and you couldn't tell if anyone was hiding in it (and that "anyone" was, by definition a hostile) then the best way to find out was to put a few rounds through the bush. Sorry - they had a specific phrase for this tactic and I can't remember it.

Location: Texas

How come I am not surprised? :p

hey Joe, I live in San Pedro (and I'm from San Francisco)

Yep, my point exactly :)

Look nether where the Germans in ether world war. No doubt, that Vietnam means something to those who served in it, beyond academics. I come from a long line of Vets some of them Vietnam Vets. However, we have had three wars and +5 interventions since.

There is an exit strategy for Iraq. Establish as stable democracy the reduce troop strength. 30 years from now, you will eat crow when Iraq is the regional leader politically and economically. You fail to consider that to this day thousands of troops still occupy Japan and Germany.

Look you want to tell me my business. I am an expert at the application and coordination of fires from the air, ground and from the sea. What ever you thought you heard from your friends is incorrect.

The specific term you are looking for is "I fired my weapon and the bad guys now know where I am":drool:

Joe- Bill has dropped out in discussed...but I'm working on turning him back into a believer. ;)

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

:rolleyes:

Interesting, California is the largest economy in the nation and fifth in the World but the IQ is only 101...we can't spell but we know how to make a dollar.

Beverly Hills is full of actors and sports people.

Nuff Said.

That is funny, I was thinking that the actors drive down the average IQ but they are only a small part of the economy. :D

Before the A-bombs and the firestorms, those countries were regional leaders, politically and economically. No wonder they are again today and nobody's eating crow. Before our coalition bombing inspired Saddam to write "Good God!" on Iraq's flag, Iraq too was the regional leader politically and economically. It (the Iraqi nation I mean) defended the Gulf States from the fanatical and triply populous Iranians. It began to rebuild. Now despite what's been done to Iraq, it will rebuild. Historians will mark a dark chapter in the life of that nation "US intervention".

Isn't it insulting to discount the former strength of the secular Iraqi nation, as though the people's natural state is this anarchy and the key to their development is continued American operations? This just strikes me as a very mean opinion of those people.

Well looks like its time to scratch plans for going over seas in the next 4 years, I am sure we will be at war with where ever I was going to go.

Maybe in 4 years we can emerge from this dark age of the republic, and actually talk to people in other parts of the world. It would have been nice to see pH move back to the US in the coming years, guessing that isnt happening now either.

Only question now, will Bush have the Imperial Anthem playing when they come on stage, and will Cheney be dressed up as Darth now? (Bush being Tarkin of course).

It's the same thinking that got us / kept us in Vietnam for so long. As Lothar5150 says, that war is purely of academic interest at this point - which means we're free to repeat the mistake, I guess.
FWIW, the parallels between 1968 and now are a bit scary - including the "support our troops" bit - as though putting our brave folks in harm's way in a place they didn't need to be was "supporting" them. Given this morning's election results, it looks like a majority here thinks this is a good way to go - just glad I don't have any draft-age children.
Of course, I live in New England, and we're very out of step with the rest of the nation (except maybe the Pacific NW). I do think we should'a left the CSA go its own way, back when they wanted to (that war wasn't originally about slavery but about money and control of it).

You can look at this election as a big **** you to fiscal conservatives of the GOP I think. They know they can win without even paying lip service to balanced budgets and small govt and fiscal responsibility. As long as they're "the Jesus Party" then it doesn't matter.

My mother in law refers to Iraq as a "war for peace" and says Bush is "doing God's work". She had always voted Democrat until this election. She knew nothing of Halliburton and doesn't care about corporate ties to politicians. She always checks that they have never been divorced though. She also feels that law enforcement should have the right to search your car, house, or person at any time for any reason. "If you aren't doing anything wrong then you don't have any reason do be against this". This is the majority opinion in Louisiana as far as I can tell.

Well Joe if things don't turn around I may be asked to return to US. The rest of the world certainly has no love for Americans nowadays. At least my CAD is worth something (0.85USD approacheth). I hear that it's one of DC's most poorly kept secrets that Bush will soon ask congress for another $70B for Iraq. For some reason he wanted to wait until after the electon to do so. Go figure.

yes bk, like '68 the same small minds will increase the stridency of their anti Bush activities
- labeled as anti war for convenience

Mass = Kennedy + Kerry
yes, you people are different - why complain ?
that others do not share your values ?
get ****ed, why should I believe that your political position has some moral superiority over anyone and/or everyone else's ?

agreed pH, the deficit is the problem with the present GOP (religious) party control

Only thing missing is Riots to complete the 1968/69 appearance.

Not complaining, putting my views in perspective.
As far as being "small minded" for being against the invasion of Iraq, well, OK, you're certainly entitled to your opinion (Patriot act hasn't gone that far, at least not yet).
FWIW, I did feel that the invasion of Afghanistan was necessary - although I don't think we're now giving it the attention it needs - and making that country a successful region-leader in thirty years would be the sort of thing Lothar could give me a hard time about. I would love to be wrong on this one...

Also - I have plenty of problems with Cheney/Bush without the war (although that was plenty bad) - including lack of fiscal conservatism (so maybe we agree on this one). Looks like another 70 or 80 billion for Iraq as soon as the election gets over. Maybe a draft, too (although long term, I'm not so sure that's such a bad idea, given the way it motivated youth to get involved when the administration made stupid decisions and their a**es were on the line. Also good for things like integration and national cohesiveness).
I think Ph is right about the Republican party having become the party of Jesus - maybe it's time to re-name it officially - at which time I'd be glad to support a third party - the "real" GOP (Eisenhower style republicans).

<rant>

I don't mean to sound like a paranoid freak buy honestly how do the American people really know who won the election? With the lack in transparency in many of the states, seems that it could be manipulated easily enough. Not that it mattered much in this election both our candidates are the poorest examples of politicians this country has seen in years. I hope for the sake of the world that next time there are a couple of guys with a little more brain power and a little less god power.

It's the same mentality that made terrorists smash airplanes into the world trade center. When people say that Bush is doing gods work by attempting to catalyze positive change with force, it is exactly what the terrorists are doing! The terrorists of course don't have the same resources as our government so they are doing it the only way they can (killing innocents in order to impose fear on a populace in hopes there agenda will be heard and understood).

</rant>

I'm just trying to figure out which country I want to move to. I really don't want my family (in the future) to have to deal with this authoritarian religious garbage. Both candidates were campaigning as "religious leaders". This is really not what I want, I prefer my leader to use some form of logic. Canada is a choice but seems like it’s probably fairly cold. There is always Mexico but I'm not too thrilled with the economy there. Any ideas?

well, your first error was to have children, now you are hostage to the future
accept therefor that you will be compromising all decisions 'for the children'
there are many European countries in which the 'quality' of life is better than the US,
but this cannot be viewed in a vacuum; do you have the skills to maintain your family there ?
(I would LOVE to return to Tuscany, but have no means of making a living there)

if you want a leader with logic -> look elsewhere than politics, it is the process itself that is corrupting
only pragmatism can survive modern politics (i.e. they are all whores for the vote)

I think you are naive, read "The History of Philosophy" by Bertrand Russel (whose inane observations are unfortunately included)

the US has economic (and military) supremacy for a reason, it too shall pass - but not so quickly I suspect
momentum cannot be dispelled even by 8 yrs of anyone - and Bush is not totally wrong even if for the 'wrong' reasons

Just be aware that if you move to Canada or Europe that you're replacing belief that God's word will provide the answer with belief that government will provide the answer. Canada weather isn't bad if you move to Vancouver or southern Ontario. Also be aware that the system of government is a lot more lopsided here and that unless you live in Ontario then you don't really see any benefit for the tax money that you put into the federal coffers. Representation of provinces is a LOT more lopsided than that of states in the USA, in other words.

Kerry just admitted his loss.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137486,00.html

One more 4 year term left...

A good friend told me a free fire zone was what you would fly over in a slick with guys that didn't see action, and wanted to fire the M60 mounted on the pus..., er kitty-pole. The bolt of the '60 might be closed on an empty chamber, with a worn barrel not locked in place. They try to fire and experience no joy, then look around for guidance. The crew chief would motion for them to cycle the bolt. When they did, the barrel would fall to the ground. Said it was good for a laugh.

Vietnam and Iraq are not even close to the same war from a geo political standpoint. The only likeness between Vietnam and Iraq is that they are both now counter insurgences. Further, the Geo politics of 1968 and today don’t even compare. North Vietnam had very generous support from China and the Soviet Union. The insurgence in Iraq are on their own. Despite popular (un-educated) thought we were actually winning in Vietnam Operationally. However, don’t believe me you can read it form General Vo Nguyen Giap himself., this is required reading in my circle. When I said that Vietnam was academic, I meant that literally.

No one wants a draft, especially not the Pentagon. It would be the absolute worst thing to happen to the US military in 30 years. Therefore, you can, can the scare tactics. I went to war with officers with masters and PhDs and non-commissioned officers/enlisted who had Bachelors degrees. Everyone knew there job and how it fit into the big picture. "We" want to keep that way (no room for second string).

Your comments about the CSA must make you a darling among your black friends.

Like on the daily show:

"Which side of the civil war will you be on?"

I had thought the Quebequois got a disproportionate amount as well. I've been wrong all these years?

clearly bk is 'liberal white'
nothing at all to do with freedom or liberty - or choice

I do have black friends and we have discussed this over beers on at least a couple of occasions. Don't think that I'm pro slavery (never was) or think that people should get judged based on the color of their skin (never did). But IMHO the war did not start over slavery and wasn't about slavery until Lincoln made it so (very savvy move as it cut the South off from any possible support from Europe and increased support for the war in the North and (longer term) undermined some of the "will to fight" in the South).
Are they now teaching that the Civil War started over slavery?
Not that there weren't wars in North America over slavery. The Texan war of independence from Mexico certainly had that as one cause. Only they wanted to keep slavery, and , as heroes of the Alamo, we don't read about the slavery part - at least not here in New England - Texan school history books might have a more complete coverage (same way we could tell you what boneheads the Puritans were).

Thanks for mentioning Giap's book. Looks like I should add it to my stack. May want to discuss it later - although this is likely the wrong forum...

No I didn't have children but want to adopt some time in the future. Bill do you think it is I that is naive or you that is calloused? No offense intended just shedding some light on the perspective. Bertrand Russel, I've never been a fan. I have a friend who is in the philosophy prog at stanford we have discussed this book before (he was saying it was good for modern philosophy but an example of how not to intepret many philosophers). He wasn't a fan but I guess I can give it a read anyway.

Yes, the Civil War was over money...the southern economy was built on plantations utilizing slave labor. I would go back and read the Lincoln Douglas debates if I were you. The move to take emphasis away from slavery has been used to let the South save face for past sin.

Did you see the election results? I guess Americans are dumber than i thought. WWIII is right around the corner, Osama attacked us, lets attack Iran this time! Lets attack whoever we want! We're america! And ours is bigger than yours! Church and state? SURE! Jesus is my buddy and should be EVERYONES buddy! I'm going to force my beliefs on you, because jesus is on my side and jesus is always right. TIME TO MOVE TO CANADA

Remember...
 

Ok, it's all over.

I'm dissapointed, but not surprised. I think I'm going start following Bill's ideologie...

For the record, here are Bush's promises (in case we dig up this thread again, 4 years from now):

(quoted from http://www.georgewbush.com/Agenda/ )

We can compare notes in 2008...